Jon Snow's Fate - Ghost / Ice Cell

[Great Gods' Guinness]

To everyone involved with this thread, especially yolkboy, thank you for SO much mental exercise and entertainment. This is the kind of discussion I always yearned for as an English major but all I ever got were attempts at indoctrination into one critical theory or another. You all feel like good friends to me. I raise a pint in your collective direction in appreciation.

For my small contribution, and please forgive me if I missed a reference to this above OR if it is too far off topic - "Queen" Selyse crowns a King of the Wildlings, IIRC. That brief scene occurs a bit before Jon is attacked. I'm wondering what folks think about how that act will play out in the chaos following the Ides of Marsh. I suspect Selyse may attempt to control the Wildlings through her creature, and that will backfire on her, possibly leading to her death. It isn't a major plot point to be sure, but it has the potential to shake things up a little more than they might have without it.

May I be the first to nominate Yolkboy for the position of Grand Maester of the Forum?

[bemused]

I very much like Fire Eater's examples of "stone" hiding things. Starks , dragons et al. And I don't think that Arya being hidden in the stone temple , the HoB&W, really a stretch.. especially when put together with the following ( part of which I notice is Lady Arya's signature ;) )

“It’s just a sword,” she said, aloud this time...

... but it wasn’t.

Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell’s grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan’s stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow’s smile. He used to mess my hair and call me “little sister,” she remembered, and suddenly there were tears in her eyes.

Polliver had stolen the sword from her when the Mountain’s men took her captive, but when she and the Hound walked into the inn at the crossroads, there it was. The gods wanted me to have it. Not the Seven, nor Him of Many Faces, but her father’s gods, the old gods of the north. The Many-Faced God can have the rest, she thought, but he can’t have this.

She padded up the steps as naked as her name day, clutching Needle. Halfway up, one of the stones rocked beneath her feet. Arya knelt and dug around its edges with her fingers. It would not move at first, but she persisted, picking at the crumbling mortar with her nails. Finally, the stone shifted. She grunted and got both hands in and pulled. A crack opened before her. “You’ll be safe here,” she told Needle. “No one will know where you are but me.” She pushed the sword and sheath behind the step, then shoved the stone back into place, so it looked like all the other stones. As she climbed back to the temple, she counted steps, so she would know where to find the sword again. One day she might have need of it. “One day,” she whispered to herself.

This holds so much meaning.. even beyond foreshadowing Arya eventually leaving the HoB&W. The first full paragraph establishes that Needle = The Starks and Winterfell and the well being ( laughter) of the people it supports, Old Nan's stories ( often to do with Stark history ), the heart tree representing spiritual sustenance , the glass gardens ,physical sustenance... connecting those things to when(?) the North wind rattles the shutters...And all culminating in Jon Snow's smile.

The second paragraph reinforces that there is a special connection between the old gods and the Starks. The old gods (CoTF) do want Arya to have Needle , or rather , all it represents to her.

In the third paragraph she strips herself of all outward connections to Starks, Winterfell and the old gods..herself hiding it all beneath stone, buried within a stone stairway...but.. “One day,” she whispered to herself.

One of the foreshadowings that this passage may contain is that as Jon had Needle forged for her, he will be the agent to recreate / restore / reforge the things that Needle stands for in Arya's mind.

( Interesting note along these lines ..the entrance to the WF crypts is buried beneath stone rubble in ADWD, which I think was intentionally done since the doorway was open when Bran and co. left. - And if there is a collapse .. or seeming collapse .. in the lower levels , it only reinforces that it's hiding something, to me .)

If I can go back to the magic used by Mirri Maz Duur, I'm uneasy with the notion that it should be used to project what's in store for Jon. ... While I agree Jorah's explanation of Drogo's state ( leading him , dribbling water on his lips) does call to mind our old saying " You can lead a horse to water , but you can't make him drink ." ...The horse in question was Drogo's stallion (who, at the time , it took three men to subdue ) , not some placid cart horse. So I think there's room to consider that either Mirri's magic didn't work too well , or this whole section of her working was a sham. Her own cruelly precise explanation, " You asked for life. You paid for life." , makes no pretense of including the strength and vitality of a stallion , just the most minimal requirements.

“You warned me that only death could pay for life. I thought you meant the horse.”

“No,” Mirri Maz Duur said. “That was a lie you told yourself. You knew the price"

This doesn't lead me to think that ghost will be any use as a sacrifice. I fear it could only lead to a greater sense of loss for Jon.I think it's more likely that Jon will be able to draw something of Ghost into him as well as the reverse process that we've already seen with skinchanging.

Dany addresses Mirri as "godswife, maegi, bloodmage, whatever you are." and we're not sure exactly which , or how many of those descriptions are true. No more than we're sure of Mel's full repertoire of abilities.

In AGoT, Jon says to Arya, “Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle. Who knows?” ... Of course, he's speaking of a possible future reunion, but I think it's expressive of the way magic works as well. Think of music..there are lots of ways you can play a particular note , or melody, but the mechanics involved vary greatly depending on what instrument you're using.

Magic can be worked , but there can be many methods of achieving the same ends. As far as I can remember "only death pays for life" has so far only been associated with the method(s) of magic used in , or originating in Essos. We have seen no example of the CoTF ( THE authorities on the old gods ) using blood sacrifice. We see the older woman in Bran's weirwood vision , and we have the story of the entrails being draped on the heart tree in White Harbour.

Both MMD and the woman in Bran's vision use bronze knives..bronze was brought to Westeros by the first men. The CoTF used obsidian, which is scalpel-sharp. If blood sacrifice was necessary or even pleasing to the old gods , why wouldn't the use of obsidian be recommended by the CoTF , as it was to fight the Others ? At any rate , I doubt they'd be feeling any affinity with bronze which , like iron later, had been used to cut down many weirwoods.

Stannis

assumes the northmen want Theon executed at the heart tree, as suggested by Asha, but we don't hear it from their lips. It's very probable,IMO, that they actually want to test the belief that no man can lie before a heart tree.

I suspect no sacrifice is necessary, but I also don't believe Jon is (even temporarily ) dead.

In Old Nan's story of the last hero, he's accompanied by his dog.. that would be an odd mistake , if she's implying he was a Stark. She knows all the Starks in the crypts are accompanied by direwolves. Generally , I have a lot of faith in Old Nan...so it raises the question , if it was a dog , when did the Starks first start to become bonded with direwolves ?... After the last hero , as an extra precaution , an added asset ( stronger, fiercer, better able to withstand cold )?

( Just an aside ..Varamyr thinks he could have forced himself on Ghost , but he had a very high opinion of himself. I somehow doubt he would have survived the attempt. )

I'm not sure Jon's full heritage will become known to him all at once , or if it does ,that it will happen at this juncture. I think it might have to be a two-step process... First , I think he has to have a sudden realization and experience of the depth of his bond with Ghost , and perhaps of the full importance of the Stark blood to the Wall and to Winterfell ( beyond his natural yearnings)... I expect Borroq will be of great assistance in getting used to the mechanics and ethics of skinchanging. I think Jon misread Borroq and his boar a bit when they first met, and consequently misreads Ghost's agitation in the assassination chapter. Borroq calls Jon "brother". As for his boar, He gave a snort and lowered his head, and for half a heartbeat Jon thought he was about to charge....but he didn't.. and when Borroq walks toward the wall , the boar stalked after him. ..I've since come to wonder if the lowering of the head wasn't a slight sign of recognition , almost a bow.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Well, all these side-effects happened after 3rd or 4th time and Cat was dead for 3 days... so being a firewight is better than being an icewight.

The "quality'" of the undead being may be connected to the ability level of the zombie maker. Or it could simply depend on how much effort the zombie maker bothers to put into the magic. Do the White Walkers need their wights to have full personalities? Not really. They just need a lot of shock troops. Thoros surprised even himself the first time he brought Beric back, but each time after that he put as much effort into it as he could.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

In Old Nan's story of the last hero, he's accompanied by his dog.. that would be an odd mistake , if she's implying he was a Stark.

The Last Hero might well have been from House Dayne, given that they own and wield the sword Dawn. If we get a Last Hero 2, I've always figured that his dog would be Sandor Clegane.

[RaidenSchumacher]

The last hero is not accompanied by any old dog. You know, it says "his friend died, his PR team died, his horse died and eventually *even* his dog".

Now that could be a purely emotive thing, but what if it really means his dog is, in fact, a Wolf?

[Mithras]

Just an aside ..Varamyr thinks he could have forced himself on Ghost , but he had a very high opinion of himself. I somehow doubt he would have survived the attempt.

:agree:

Starks bonded with their direwolves since they are pups. Varamyr did the same with his dogs and dogs are easiest to give their skins. I think wearing the skin of a random adult wild beast is very difficult. It will fight back like hell. Although Varamyr was strong enough to kick Haggon out of the old wolf and subdue a shadowcat and a snow bear, he had no chance in taking Ghost rom Jon.

[bemused]

The last hero is not accompanied by any old dog. You know, it says "his friend died, his PR team died, his horse died and eventually *even* his dog".

Now that could be a purely emotive thing, but what if it really means his dog is, in fact, a Wolf?

Of course, that's the obvious answer, and one I can live with..but Old Nan's stories have been so Stark centric that there is a question..when you start considering what we don't yet know about the Stark/direwolf bond..specifically the Jon/Ghost bond. It could well have an added dimension beyond what we've seen in other examples.

[Lyse Stark]

Of course, that's the obvious answer, and one I can live with..but Old Nan's stories have been so Stark centric that there is a question..when you start considering what we don't yet know about the Stark/direwolf bond..specifically the Jon/Ghost bond. It could well have an added dimension beyond what we've seen in other examples.

Certainly possible. I believe Jon's bond with Ghost is a clue to what he's really is.

[Droga_TargaryenSnow]

In Old Nan's story of the last hero, he's accompanied by his dog.. that would be an odd mistake , if she's implying he was a Stark.

Maybe it was a cross breed between a wolf and a dog. I think those are usually referred to as dogs.

[utecifa]

This theory is a good one. And has led me to re-examine a chapter in ADWD where Dany has a bizarre dream...

Beneath her coverlets she tossed and turned, dreaming that Hizdahr was kissing her . . . but his lips were blue and bruised, and when he thrust himself inside her, his manhood was cold as ice. She sat up with her hair disheveled and the bedclothes atangle. Her captain slept beside her, yet she was alone.

I was nearly positive this was about Euron and foreshadowing of Dany being forced into a non pleasurable arrangement with him.

But IF your theory is correct, it would seem to also describe the Jon Snow come back to life you have described in your theory would it not? It does fit with your theory, of a man submerged in an ice cell for a prolonged period of time, of which he partially but not completely decomposes due to the preserving factor of the ice. The part about the lips being "bruised" especially would sound like partial decomposition which would fit your theory on what happens with Jon.

That's not comforting for me since I despise the Jon and Dany partnership theories and would not be a fan of that at all. So...I'm going to stick with the weirdo Dany dreaming about Euron... :thumbsup:

[Han Snow]

^I'm willing to bet not many fans want undead half way decomposed corpsey Jon banging Dany. Maybe that act is what brings him back fully to life?

Or maybe that kind of union is what appeals to the fans instead of a regular romance? Night King Jon raping Dany???

*yuck*

[Mithras]

Does anybody made any connections about this theory and the vow of the Night's Watch

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come.

The bolded part is like Jon's life so far and if he will spend some time in an ice cell, the rest also makes sense.

[Bloodraven's Lost Eye]

Does anybody made any connections about this theory and the vow of the Night's Watch

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come.

The bolded part is like Jon's life so far and if he will spend some time in an ice cell, the rest also makes sense.

I don't really see the connection, sure if I looked really hard i'd see it.

What I see more is a continuation of pragmatism, like turning his cloak to the wildlings. Breaking the vow to ensure the purpose of his vow is fullfilled. Everything that says "I shall" he will fail to do: It will NOT end with his death, he already took a wife (ygritte) etc. But he IS the sword in the darkness and no matter his vows, he IS the shield that guards the realms of men, even if he's no longer considered a member of the Night's watch, he WILL be the guy to save the realms of men and he may or may not be remembered as a turncloak, bastard and powermonger.

I think there is (going to be) a reversed parallel with Stannis; in a way Stannis goes to the wall to save the realm to win the crown; Jon wins the crown in order to save the realm. But I digress with a few theories/gut feelings in the back of my mind, like: Stannis' path is darkness/cold, I don't see anybody besides Jon taking control of the Northmen and there will be a sweet Irony in nobody (besides the reader) knowing Jon's parentage, but he will still be King of the north/IT, they'll say "he was a bastard, but a good one".

[Mithras]

On the discussion about sealing the gates on the Wall, Dywen the BAMF opposed this idea and said

"Ever see a duck frozen in a pond, with his feet in the ice? It works the same for crows."

Ducks are sometimes used as symbols for kings and princes. And we are talking about Dywen, the gnarled old forester who liked to boast that he could smell snow coming on.

[J. Stargaryen]

“A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness… ”

- ACoK, Daenerys IV (HotU)

Not sure if anyone has mentioned these yet from ADwD, Jon VII:

The sun had broken through near midday, after seven days of dark skies and snow flurries. Some of the drifts were higher than a man, but the stewards had been shoveling all day and the paths were as clean as they were like to get. Reflections glimmered off the Wall, every crack and crevice glittering pale blue.

Winter roses are sometimes described as "pale blue."

Her eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that was her sigil. “The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister’s name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna. “

Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep. “I do not know which of you I pity most.”

- AGoT, Eddard XII

He was walking through the crypts beneath Winterfell, as he had walked a thousand times before. The Kings of Winter watched him pass with eyes of ice, and the direwolves at their feet turned their great stone heads and snarled. Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. “Promise me, Ned, “ Lyanna’s statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

- AGoT, Eddard XIII

Later in the same chapter...

“Aye, my lord,” said the Lord Steward, “but will it be as living men or heads on spears with your eyes scooped out? You will be returning through the black of night. The snowdrifts are waist deep in places. I see that you are taking seasoned men with you, that is good, but Black Jack Bulwer knew these woods as well. Even Benjen Stark, your own uncle, he—”

“I have something they did not.” Jon turned his head and whistled. “Ghost. To me.” The direwolf shook the snow from his back and trotted to Jon’s side. The rangers parted to let him through, though one mare whinnied and shied away till Rory gave her reins a sharp tug. “The Wall is yours, Lord Bowen.” He took his horse by the bridle and walked him to the gate and the icy tunnel that snaked beneath the Wall.

Marsh is worried that Jon might die, but he tells him that he won't because he has something that the others did not – Ghost. In other words, Jon warging Ghost will keep him alive.

[Chatty Duelist]

+1

[the conquoring bastard25]

Excellent Yolkboy.

I am looking forward to part two.

Due to many clues regarding Jon's fate throughout the books I had come to the same conclusion regarding his fate after stabbing.

The next part is my own subjective rant and grief.

Jon Snow is my favorite character along with all the Stark children. I loved his character due to his love and concern for his younger siblings and how Martin has written him as a character who wants to do the right thing for the most people. In a series where Martin has written many grey characters and even perhaps black characters Jon's character at least to me was refreshing. I know many readers considered him boring but I loved a character who was willing to give a fish to a younger brother who did not catch one for himself. I have loved his character growing and maturing and learning from mentors Martin placed in his story line.

I subjectively wanted Martin to keep Jon Snow the whiter shade of grey in the series but alas I am now concerned he will end up a much darker character..and I surely hope he is not the Night's King unless we the readers have been given some false information regarding him. I also have concerns regarding kinslaying..which under orders Jon did when he killed Quorin Halfhand. I do think a brother in the Night's watch is a brother in the god's eyes. What that says about an organization that has stabbed two LC's is something to ponder but I fear Jon might also have to pay a price himself.

It seems to me that today's readers do not like hero characters in their stories however I am a woman who is old enough no doubt be a grandma to most writers and readers on this forum

I still like stories that have good guys..no doubt due to my indoctrination of the Lone Ranger series or Roy Rodgers, Walt Disney and the like. I have some small hope that Martin being my age also..still has a kernel of Mighty Mouse hero cartoon fantasy in his brain,or perhaps an episode of Timmy and Lassie.

While Jon might need to make some harsh decisions when he returns to his body..I am still hoping for a good guy..the good guy of Martin's and my past. At this time in today's climate it almost seems taboo to even write such a thing. So there I have written my deepest desire for the character Jon Snow. If his character is to die in the end..I just hope its on an epic scale of every hero in all the fairy tales, old wives tales, religious affiliations, etc etc.

We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.

Yolkboy, I commend you on your research and your willingness to compile and post great threads and also your dignity and for taking the time to send me very nice comments privately. Your Momma brought you up with manners. I appreciate them. Sorry this was off topic. Looking forward to your next part and I promise to go back into silent mode for another few months. LOL thank you for your patience.

(Yolkboy)I haven't gotten all the way through all of the other posts. But first I would like to say when I read this I thought that you were reading my mind. I have felt this way about Jon for the beginning.

Your right jon is a kinslayer and the price that jon will have to pay won't be Ghost I don't think all though I did think that at first. Yet I don't think that GRRM would have original wanted to name the book a time for wolves if the Starks weren't going to have their wolves.

THe COFT tell bran that BR had lived more than a normal span for a mortal man that he still lived for them, for bran and the realms of men. One of the many reframes that goes through jon's head is that he is the shield of the realms of men. His very vows to the nights watch are proclaiming him not of himself but of that of the realm. Bloodraven has stuck around this long to be sacrificed for jon. Plus BR is a Kinslayer himself he has to pay for his crime his killed his brother and 2 of his sons in the first blackfrye rebellion. Since BR is the closest thing to a ice/fire person it makes sense that he pay for his kinslayer by sacrifice his life for the realm he swore to defend. When he was a living man he dressed in grey, wisps of red with a little black. he himself called it his smoke and blood look. His sigil is a white dragon with red eyes breathing fire on a grey field. Does that remind you of someone else's personal device? When Valyrian steel made a replica of Long Claw GRRM told them to make his shield the opposite of the starks a white wolf red eyes and grey field. The reason it's a sacrifice is because Bran won't get all the training that he needs and like Merlin with Arthur, Bran a boy with dreams of the future will be by the Leader of Westeros. Notice how Bran in scenes where he is seated with Robb or BR he is always to the right of them. That is the position of servitude or a position of being second in command. He's in the place of like Aegon's brother his strong right hand which is where the phrase came from. Bran is not going to inherit like he said himself he would never be lord of Winterfell. He's going to be Jon's great right hand and be a looking post someone in advisory capacity.

Yet with Jon to get back into his body BR is going to merge with Ghost. He was the king that never was, king in all but name. Like sixskins said a sweet life worthy of a king. Bloodraven acting as the smoke and kingsblood to be sacrificed to let jon get back into his body. Then Theon would serve as the Salt. He was baptized with salt water right before he returned to the green lands. One of his titles is King of Salt. He is the rightful heir to the iron islands. He is the smiling corpse that dany saw at the prow of the ship. Vic nor Stannis have ever been known to smile let alone to laugh. Theon before coming back to winterfell reflects on Cleftjaw and how can he smile with 4 lips? Theon is going to learn to smile again. His horse was named smiler for gods'sake. Not to mention the stallion died by fire and blood similar to how Drogo died and theon becomes the walking dead turned into Reek.

Also interesting is that jon in the ice cells reminds me of the cave the Jesus went into when in resurrected Lazuras and when he himself was entombed or to be resurrected. Anyway I've always felt that Jon was on a parallel arc with Dany and if they ever did meet they wouldn't get along very well.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I appreciate all the metaphysical stuff but do we really need Jon's consciousness to enter into Ghost? Were Jon's wounds any worse than Bran's? Couldn't we see something similar happen with Jon as we saw with Bran? Mel and Val will surely see that he is cared for and Val and Tormund will protect him if he lives, no? Then Bloodraven can use Bran to talk Jon into fighting the good fight no? Maybe we'll learn a little more about the heart of winter and the others that way?

[Rooseman]

I appreciate all the metaphysical stuff but do we really need Jon's consciousness to enter into Ghost? Were Jon's wounds any worse than Bran's? Couldn't we see something similar happen with Jon as we saw with Bran? Mel and Val will surely see that he is cared for and Val and Tormund will protect him if he lives, no? Then Bloodraven can use Bran to talk Jon into fighting the good fight no? Maybe we'll learn a little more about the heart of winter and the others that way?

Sure, GRRM could have written it that way.

He probably didn't, though.

[The Wight]

Amazing theory and pretty much fact in my mind now. At least the man - wolf - man part.

Regarding the "what will happen at the wall now" question, I doubt the wildlings will revolt and start killing Crows. Remember the watch still have their hostages, "highborn" hostages.