Heresy 81

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 81, this week’s edition of the popular thread which takes a rather sideways look not at the Game of Thrones but at the Song of Ice and Fire.

Heresy began by questioning whether the Song of Ice and Fire is simply about Jon Snow (or Danaerys Targaryen) turning out to be Azor Ahai and defeating the Others, and whether the Wall really was built to defend Westeros. Over the last couple of years it has developed from there into a fairly free-flowing discussion challenging all sorts of orthodoxies in an attempt to figure out what’s really going on. As the story itself has progressed from AGoT to ADwD we have come to see a much darker world and that there is a far more complex conflict going on which may have little or nothing to do with the struggle for the Iron Throne. Instead its one which seems to be fairly deeply rooted in Celtic and Norse mythology; upon the Mabinigion, the Tain bo Culaidh and Sir Gawain and the Green Night to name but three – and not forgetting Young Tam Lin either.

Some of us suspect that the Starks are closely bound to this world beyond the Wall and that the Pact agreed between the First Men and the Children long ago on the Isle of Faces was not an alliance but a one-sided peace treaty which saw the children surrender their lands and weapons, and yet in the end still saw them driven beyond the Wall.

This is why some of us suspect that the weirwood faces of the white walkers in the HBO show may point to a close connection with the children already admitted but not yet explained by GRRM, and why as Qhorin Halfhand warned, the Old Powers are awakening, the trees have eyes again - and of course Gendel’s children are always hungry.

This is the Song of Ice and Fire; and the Others and the rest of the Old Powers together represent only one side of a conflict that has been waged since time began.

All of these theories are just that and matters of controversy rather tenets of faith. We think we’re reaching a better understanding of what’s really going on, but as heretics we neither promote nor defend a particular viewpoint, in fact we argue quite a lot which is what makes this thread cycle so much fun.

If you’re already actively involved in the Heresy business it needs no further introduction, but if you’re new to the game please don’t be intimidated by all those earlier threads.* We’re very good at talking in circles. We’re also friendly and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask.

Otherwise, all that we do ask of you as ever is that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

* for which see Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/

[yolkboy]

Why do you say, in your signature, that heresy must be conducted with reference to the text, and the in the OP cite the HBO show?

[Black Crow]

Context is everything. The show can point to important clues given its different perspectives and the constraints inherent in transferring the story to a visual medium, but ultimately and in case of dispute it comes down to the text - which we do tend to quote quite a lot in these here parts.

[yolkboy]

I wouldn't dream of referring to the HBO in my OP's - even if supportive of my argument. Seems like a huge contradiction to me, given your sig., however you want to present it.

[JonNonRegis]

Why do you say, in your signature, that heresy must be conducted with reference to the text, and the in the OP cite the HBO show?

Good question. The show is not canon and its place in the analysis of canon is a little doubtful.

In this particular case, I'm not even sure I would say the HBO Popsicles have "weirwood faces," only that they look different from the books' rendition.

Ned Stark knows (virtually no other character or even reader know):

1) Winter is coming, and what that will mean besides cold and famine.

I'm not so sure. He says, outright, that the Popsicles have been dead and gone for eight thousand years; we know better. He seems similarly uninformed about the significance of direwolves re warging potential among his own children.

2) What happened at the Tower of Joy

Now this is an interesting area indeed. There are quite a few implications worth considering.

If we believe R+L=J, for instance, then Ned surely knows taking in Jon and raising him as his bastard will be high treason -- that he, Ned, will literally have to be a traitor in continually violating the crown's explicit wishes.

He also knows that if he is in any way caught doing this, he will be killed. And so will Jon.

Is Ned Stark a traitor, who spends more than a decade of his life worrying that his treason might be revealed? It's an awkward case to make...

3) Why he sent Jon Snow to the Night's Watch.

I'm not persuaded he did. To me, he acquiesced when Jon independently decided he would be best off in the Watch.

[Lord Ravenstark]

Not every heresy starts with huge excerpt. We start with small observations, comparisons, rethinking and then we develop. When we develop an idea, it's conducted to the text. When somebody find something interesting and if it convince someone, then they can start to work on. It helps to filtrate the absurd from the plausible, keeping a flowing and not a boring overflow of references. We may use HBO's show as an exemple but, at least most of us, won't see it as a source of reliable info. The heresy threads are not made by an homogenous line of thinking. In fact, while we don't see the show as cannon, some may see it as a different interpretation.

[Toccs]

Why do you say, in your signature, that heresy must be conducted with reference to the text, and the in the OP cite the HBO show?

The text is always king in Heresy.

However occasionally something from the show can (when taken in context of the limitations of the medium) be interpreted as a clue to how the text may play out. Just the same way that licenced official artwork or various correspondence with GRRM from the SSM archives can be used for context clues.

Off the top of my head there's only a few things from the show that ever get banded about round here, "the Walker's Wierwood Faces", "Seeing the Walker physically taking Craster's son" and "the Walkers making symbols with the dead bodies". All of which are used, not as the basis for theories but as examples of things that are so far only hinted at (possibly) and yet to be revealed (if they ever will be) but that the show has decided to use.

Nobody, even the believers of those theories ever considers the show to trump or be of equal canon to the books.

[Urrax]

....I'm not persuaded he did. To me, he acquiesced when Jon independently decided he would be best off in the Watch.

:agree:

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

My reading is that Craster was being used as a breeding stud for "strengthening" the faerie stock. And Jon's well-intentioned switch of Gilly's son ("Monster") for Mance's son is, in effect, our changeling story.

The dramatic irony is that, in attempting to save the son of the King-Beyond-the-Wall (Mance)... Jon has possibly replaced him with the son of the Queen-Beyond-the-Wall (the Morrigan).

Alright, I keep thinking I'm going to get a chunk of time when I can write my big 'Gilly' post - but it's not going to happen. So I'm piecing together some thoughts I have written out, but then I'm just gonna start typing, pausing for interruptions, and charging through. Part of my problem is that I keep thinking of more info to include, and wanting more time to integrate it well, but let's just see where this goes. If I just put this stuff out there, you folks can fix it up better than I can myself anyway...

(Pause. Confiscates small objects from 18 mo old. Resumes post...)

When she came to Jon Snow, the forest was “…turned to crystal… [and] the pale pink light of dawn sparkled on branch and leaf and stone. Every blade of grass was carved from emerald, every drip of water turned to diamond. Flowers and mushrooms alike wore coats of glass. Even the mud puddles had a bright brown sheen. Through the shimmering greenery, the black tents… were encased in a fine glaze of ice.”

When she came there was “magic beyond the Wall.” And Jon Snow finds her “crouched atop the rock that had sheltered him during the night… wrapped in a black cloak so large it drowned her.”

She asks if he is “brother to the king,” begs him to take her away with him south “so far as the Wall.” She offers to be his wife, and says it’s “for the baby” she has to go. When he asks if she fears Craster, she responds that her unborn child would be a boy, and says “he gives the boys to the gods… the cold gods…the ones in the night. The white shadows.”

Jon is alarmed, but cannot help – his path lies north, not south. He turns her down.

She flees, running – “cloak flapping behind her like great black wings.”

Jon watches and damns her resentfully as she goes. And when he looks up, “the magic was already faded, icy brightness turning back to common dew in the light of the rising sun.”

-- Paraphrase of a scene out of ACOK, Chapter 23

She says that she is "called" Gilly... "for the Gillyflower." And she says so at least twice: once to Jon ("Gilly, he called me..."), and again when she meets Bran at the Night Fort ("Who are you?"... "Gilly, for the gillyflower"). I could be mistaken about this, but I don't think she ever actually admits to this being her *name*.

Does that matter? Well, maybe. There are suggestions in the text that Gilly - along with the other residents of Craster's Keep - is not human, but fae. And one standard folkloric belief about creatures of the faerie realm is that one may acquire power over them by learning their true names. GRRM hasn't addressed that explicitly in these books, but it is worth noting that one distinguishing characteristic of the old gods of the North is that they are unnamed.

So who is this young mother who so desperately seeks passage south? I'm not sure we can answer that question with certainty, but there are clues and hints. The more I look into it, the more I think that, in Gilly, we have encountered a manifestation of the divine hag: Cailleach Bheur, Anann, or the Morrigan.

But whether it is her true name or not, there's still no better place to begin answering this question than with this word she uses to identify herself: “Gilly.” And we might as well start with the flower she says is her namesake: the gillyflower.

A gilliflower or gillyflower is:

• The carnation or a similar plant of the genus Dianthus, especially the Clove Pink Dianthus caryophyllus.
• Matthiola incana, also known as stock.
• Several other plants, such as the wallflower, which have fragrant flowers.

The name derives from the French giroflée from Greek karyophyllon = "nut-leaf" = the spice called clove.

It was frequently used in medieval tenure documents as a means of payment of peppercorn rent for land...

The above comes from Wikipedia (as will much of the information in this post - so double-check me). Assuming this information is generally accurate, the semantic and symbolic significance of the gilliflower is significant. For starters, you have some rich etymological roots in the words "carnation" and in the scientific name "dianthus caryophyllus."

"Dianthus Caryophyllus" is a name that can be broken up into several parts. Dianthus is derived from the Greek word for "divine" or "heavenly" (dios) (divine, heavenly) and the word for "flower" (anthos). And Caryophyllus comes from a Greek word meaning t"nut-leaf," or the "dried flower buds of the clove tree" ("karyophyllon").

"Carnation" has been identified with two possible semantic roots. One line of thought relates the name to the concept of a crown, by way of the word "coronation," and the historical use of this flower for the making of Greek ceremonial garlands. Another relates the word to the concept of flesh, by way of the Latin word caros (carnis) - which might refer to the color of the flower as being flesh-like, in appearance.

These particular word-associations might quickly conjure up notions of divinity, sovereignty (kingship/queenship), and incarnation. Sticking with the Dianthus caryophyllus as our primary exemplar, we can also add the symbolism of "mother's undying love" - a meaning that has come to be associated with the carnation primarily by way of its adoption into Christian tradition as a flower associated with Mary, mother of Jesus.

Altogether, the above three paragraphs put an interesting spin on Samwell Tarly's send off from Craster's Keep...

Three of Craster’s wives were standing over them. Two were haggard old women he did not know, but Gilly was between them...

"The blackest crows are down in the cellar, gorging," said the old woman on the left, “or up in the loft with the young ones. They'll be back soon, though. Best you be gone when they do. The horses run off, but Dyah's caught two."

"You said you'd help me," Gilly reminded him.

Sam closed the Old Bear's eyes and tried to think of a prayer, but all that came to mind was, "Mother have mercy. Mother have mercy. Mother have mercy."

"Your mother can't help you none," said the old woman on the left. "That dead old man can't neither. You take his sword and you take that big warm fur cloak o' his and you take his horse if you can find him. And you go."

"The girl don't lie," the old woman on the right said. "She's my girl, and I beat the lying out of her early on. You said you'd help her. Do what Ferny says, boy. Take the girl and be quick about it."

Confronted by the madness at Craster's Keep and the Old Bear's death, Sam recites a prayer to the Mother of his childhood faith. Craster's wives warn him that his mother cannot help. Then they press their Gillyflower into his hands - a heavenly flower, the symbol of a mother's undying love - and they send him south to the Wall.

(And was that "Dyah" who caught the horses? As in... Dianthus?)

[END PART ONE... I'll pick up again in a second post... then a third and a fourth as necessary to get all these thoughts down...]

[addicted to snow]

Yeah, we have seen the last of V.Sixskins. His purpose was clear,he was the readers senses in situations where it would have been all but impossible. He gave us insight into skinchanging a little bit,especially regarding when they die and he was there to see the transition from person to Wight.He gave us more clues to the bigger puzzle and that's it....

V.Sixskins had already begun his second life in One eye and that was out of his control.His body is no longer so he can't jump from his wolf into another to try and take over his body. The only reason he was able to accomplish what he did was because he was alive and was able to tear Haggon's second life from him.Same thing with Thistle.

We seem to be missing a crucial thing here and that is V.sixskins was the aggressor all these animals he took,broke their will.He would have never been able to take Ghost from Jon,alive and now dead.

He dreamed of it,had a chance had Mance been successful but failed.How exactly,do you propose V.sixskins exit his second life to claim Ghost. Jon's darker path will have nothing to do with V.Sixskins it would be by his choice.

I do not know that Varamyr is bound to one host in his 2nd life (like Haggon, who was not reliable, thought), and I don't know exactly how GRRM plans to executed this proposed catalysts in Jon's character development. All I can say is that the clues exist on a very subtle level, if the Prologue is analyzed very objectively. I recognize these clues, but am unable to articulate them.

Why is the Prologue so damned long?

Why did GRRM offer such a rich detailed backstory on Varamyr including all turning points in his life?

Why did GRRM choose to make Varamyr the most power Warg & not someone else? Why even make any the 'most' powerful?

Why did GRRM go to such effort to let the reader know that Haggon was not reliable?

Why did GRRM mention Varamyr's desire for Ghost, that Ghost would be "a 2nd life fit for a King"?

Why did GRRM express Varamyr's lifelong desire to travel South?

In a Series that is growing too long, and publishers are constantly demanding a reduction of page count; none of the answers to the above questions are necessary (not in the least) unless there is more to Varamyr than we currently think. Things like this are the subtle clues that I have spotted & these are but a fraction of them.

I am not 100% certain that Varamyr will somehow end up in Jon's head, but I would put my money where my mouth is if given the opportunity to place a bet. I give it an 85% chance that part of Varamyr will, by whatever means, enter Jon's Consciousness at some point in TWoW. I base my confidence on these two points:

• GRRM provided an unreasonable amount of info & backstory on Varamyr if his importance has ended
• Jon is a dumb kid with zero knowledge of Warging / Skinchanging skills. I think that it is essential that Jon master this power for his character transformation to be complete. How better to accelerate this transformation than from has his mind meld with the most powerful of all Wargs (a Warg who has verbally expressed his desire to live his 2nd life in ghost)

It all makes sense to me, but I'm sorry, I cannot offer specific details on how it will happen - I a not the writer - I just ask questions & look for clues...

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

<< GILLY POST -- PART 1 >>

GILLY POST -- PART 2

Now, let's forget that namesake flower for just a moment. The reason for doing so is that, unlike Jon Snow, you and I know there are at least two people who decided this woman should be called Gilly. One may be Craster. But the other is certainly George R. R. Martin. And it's worth examining the possibility that Martin has more in mind here than just a flower.

There is one question that haunts me as I read and analyze (and over-analyze) the content of these books. And that question is: Did Martin intentionally include this meaning I think I see, or am I reading too much into this? And I've wondered that off and on as I've puzzled over Gilly, but in the end I think Martin has included enough information in his text to demonstrate a very considered construction of Gilly's name and character.

What else could "Gilly" refer to, other than the gillyflower, and has Martin taken account of these meanings in his text?

Ghillie or gillie is a Scots term that refers to an attendant on a fishing, fly fishing, hunting, or deer stalking expedition, primarily in the Highlands or on a river such as the River Spey. In origin it referred especially to someone who attended on his employer or guests.

A ghillie may also serve as a gamekeeper employed by a landowner to prevent poaching on his lands, control unwelcome natural predators such as fox or otter and monitor the health of the wildlife.

The origin of this word dates from the late 16th century, from the Scottish Gaelic gille, "lad, servant", cognate with the Irish giolla.

Historically, the term was used for a Highland chief's attendant.

A ghillie-weetfit, a term now obsolete (a translation of 'gille-caisfliuch', from the Gaelic cos foot/leg and fliuch wet), was the ghillie whose duty it was to carry his master over streams. It became a term of contempt among the Lowlanders for the 'tail' (as his attendants were called) of a Highland chief.

Again, we're working with Wikipedia here - so better information is always welcome. But assuming this information is generally accurate, do we have any evidence that Martin is aware of this alternative (non-gillyflower) derivation for the name "Gilly?" As it turns out, I think we do. Check out these brief descriptions of Gilly, and particular moments or events in her narrative (bold italics used to highlight particularly relevant text):

Jon... heard a shout of fear. "Wolf!" ... One of Craster's women was backed up against the mud-spattered wall of the keep. "Keep away," she was shouting at Ghost. "You keep away!" The direwolf had a rabbit in his mouth and another dead and bloody on the ground before him. "Get it away, m'lord," she pleaded when she saw him.

"He won't hurt you." He knew at once what had happened; a wooden hutch, its slats shattered, lay on its side in the wet grass. "He must have been hungry. We haven't seen much game." Jon whistled. The direwolf bolted down the rabbit, crunching the small bones between his teeth, and padded over to him.

The woman regarded them with nervous eyes. She was younger than he'd thought at first. A girl of fifteen or sixteen years, he judged, dark hair plastered across a gaunt face by the falling rain, her bare feet muddy to the ankles. The body under the sewn skins was showing in the early turns of pregnancy. "Are you one of Craster's daughters?" he asked.

She put a hand over her belly. "Wife now." Edging away from the wolf, she knelt mournfully beside the broken hutch. "I was going to breed them rabbits. There's no sheep left."

Crouched atop the rock that had sheltered him during the night was the rabbit keeper, wrapped in a black cloak so large it drowned her.

She started to climb off the rock, awkwardly, but the ice had made it slippery and her foot went out from under her. Jon caught her before she could fall, and helped her safely down.

These quotes are all pulled from ACOK, Chapter 23, in which Gilly makes her first appearance. And contrary to the divine royalty symbolized in her name... Martin introduces Gilly as the young woman who is also Craster's gamekeeper (Jon and Ghost conveniently identify "rabbit" and "game" as equivalent terms for us), and repeatedly reminds us that she has wet feet.

Given that Craster's wives and daughters generally appear to function as servants at the Keep, and given that we receive little specific information about any of the other women - these additional details about Gilly stand out. Evidently Martin has chosen the name "Gilly" for reasons beyond the gillyflower itself. Even if these particular details and definitions seem insignificant to the larger plot, they reveal Martin's careful attention to word choice. Clearly, in this case, he is well aware of the Old Irish and Scottish Gaelic word origins connected to this character.

What else might he have in mind? How about Ghillie Dhu?

In Scottish folklore the Ghillie Dhu or Gille Dubh is a faerie, a guardian spirit of the trees. He is kind to children, but generally wild and shy. Said to be dark haired, he is described as clothed in leaves and moss (similar to a Green Man in England and Wales). He especially likes birch trees, and is most active at night. In lore, this solitary spirit is said to reside primarily near Gairloch and Loch a Druing...

Now this gets a bit more interesting. North of the Wall in the early pre-dawn, in a "magic" forest "turned to crystal," Jon Snow is approached by a dark haired, shy guardian of wildlife, concerned for the fate of her child. "Ghillie Dhu" can be understood to mean "dark haired assistant," but would more literally translate as "dark servant" - a more ominous description than we'd be inclined to apply to Gilly (Sam's good, sweet Gilly), but that might well resonate when applied to a young woman whose cloak "flap behind her like great black wings" as she flees before the dawn.

Do we have enough evidence to conclude that Gilly belongs to the faerie realm? What do we see?

(1) She petitions Jon during the interval between night and day - during the magical, pre-dawn twilight;

(2) Momentarily, in the twilight, she takes the form of a great black bird; and

(3) Sam is told, later, that she does not lie.

That is not necessarily a conclusive set of observations - but they are strong hints, coming from an author who has already demonstrated careful attention to this character. There may be other hints that bear mentioning here... feel free to point them out if you see any.

I myself DO see further clues in the text that connect Gilly to the divine hags of Irish and Scottish myth. But before exploring those, I want to step back for a moment... and take a look at another mythological allusion already built into Gilly's name.

I didn't see this one at first, myself - but sort of stumbled onto it. And since (I think) it sort of breaks this whole thing wide open... I'm gonna talk about it IN PART 3 of this obscenely long "post."

[END PART 2]

[wolfmaid7]

I do not know that Varamyr is bound to one host in his 2nd life (like Haggon, who was not reliable, thought), and I don't know exactly how GRRM plans to executed this proposed catalysts in Jon's character development. All I can say is that the clues exist on a very subtle level, if the Prologue is analyzed very objectively. I recognize these clues, but am unable to articulate them.

Why is the Prologue so damned long?

Why did GRRM offer such a rich detailed backstory on Varamyr including all turning points in his life?

Why did GRRM choose to make Varamyr the most power Warg & not someone else? Why even make any the 'most' powerful?

Why did GRRM go to such effort to let the reader know that Haggon was not reliable?

Why did GRRM mention Varamyr's desire for Ghost, that Ghost would be "a 2nd life fit for a King"?

Why did GRRM express Varamyr's lifelong desire to travel South?

In a Series that is growing too long, and publishers are constantly demanding a reduction of page count; none of the answers to the above questions are necessary (not in the least) unless there is more to Varamyr than we currently think. Things like this are the subtle clues that I have spotted & these are but a fraction of them.

I am not 100% certain that Varamyr will somehow end up in Jon's head, but I would put my money where my mouth is if given the opportunity to place a bet. I give it an 85% chance that part of Varamyr will, by whatever means, enter Jon's Consciousness at some point in TWoW. I base my confidence on these two points:

• GRRM provided an unreasonable amount of info & backstory on Varamyr if his importance has ended
• Jon is a dumb kid with zero knowledge of Warging / Skinchanging skills. I think that it is essential that Jon master this power for his character transformation to be complete. How better to accelerate this transformation than from has his mind meld with the most powerful of all Wargs (a Warg who has verbally expressed his desire to live his 2nd life in ghost)

It all makes sense to me, but I'm sorry, I cannot offer specific details on how it will happen - I a not the writer - I just ask questions & look for clues...

Even though i believe that V.Sixskins purpose and part in this was already expressed. Mainly info of the reliable and unreliable nature i must say i am very intrigued by where you're going with this.If that was to happen it would be nice to see V.Sixskins as an echo in Jon's conscious,it reminds me of Elia and Vladimir Hakkonen in Dune.

I honestly, don't believe V.Sixskins ( even if he had his body)has it in him to wrest Ghost from Jon. The belief that when a Skinchanger dies they live out their second life in their familiar is an important plot device. Also,this wasn't just Haggon's belief,Leaf and Blood raven expressed the same thing to Bran when he encountered the Singers in the Crows( ADWD),so based on those accounts i have to go with V.Sixskins slowly disappearing in One eye, if the Wights didn't get him first. Haggon,Leaf and BR can't all be unreliable when it comes to this particular issue.I believe that talk with him taking Ghost was just bravado.He clearly early on in his childhood had some self esteem issues which turned into a narcissistic type personality disorder because he was skilled at bending varied animals to his will.He to me foolishly thought that he could take Ghost because of the error that it was Jon who chose Ghost and not the other way around ( my belief).I still hold true to Ghost choosing Jon and not Jon choosing him.

GILLY POST -- PART 2

Now, let's forget that namesake flower for just a moment. The reason for doing so is that, unlike Jon Snow, you and I know there are at least two people who decided this woman should be called Gilly. One may be Craster. But the other is certainly George R. R. Martin. And it's worth examining the possibility that Martin has more in mind here than just a flower.

There is one question that haunts me as I read and analyze (and over-analyze) the content of these books. And that question is: Did Martin intentionally include this meaning I think I see, or am I reading too much into this? And I've wondered that off and on as I've puzzled over Gilly, but in the end I think Martin has included enough information in his text to demonstrate a very considered construction of Gilly's name and character.

What else could "Gilly" refer to, other than the gillyflower, and has Martin taken account of these meanings in his text?

Again, we're working with Wikipedia here - so better information is always welcome. But assuming this information is generally accurate, do we have any evidence that Martin is aware of this alternative (non-gillyflower) derivation for the name "Gilly?" As it turns out, I think we do. Check out these brief descriptions of Gilly, and particular moments or events in her narrative (bold italics used to highlight particularly relevant text):

These quotes are all pulled from ACOK, Chapter 23, in which Gilly makes her first appearance. And contrary to the divine royalty symbolized in her name... Martin introduces Gilly as the young woman who is also Craster's gamekeeper (Jon and Ghost conveniently identify "rabbit" and "game" as equivalent terms for us), and repeatedly reminds us that she has wet feet.

Given that Craster's wives and daughters generally appear to function as servants at the Keep, and given that we receive little specific information about any of the other women - these additional details about Gilly stand out. Evidently Martin has chosen the name "Gilly" for reasons beyond the gillyflower itself. Even if these particular details and definitions seem insignificant to the larger plot, they reveal Martin's careful attention to word choice. Clearly, in this case, he is well aware of the Old Irish and Scottish Gaelic word origins connected to this character.

What else might he have in mind? How about Ghillie Dhu?

Now this gets a bit more interesting. North of the Wall in the early pre-dawn, in a "magic" forest "turned to crystal," Jon Snow is approached by a dark haired, shy guardian of wildlife, concerned for the fate of her child. "Ghillie Dhu" can be understood to mean "dark haired assistant," but would more literally translate as "dark servant" - a more ominous description than we'd be inclined to apply to Gilly (Sam's good, sweet Gilly), but that might well resonate when applied to a young woman whose cloak "flap behind her like great black wings" as she flees before the dawn.

Do we have enough evidence to conclude that Gilly belongs to the faerie realm? What do we see?

(1) She petitions Jon during the interval between night and day - during the magical, pre-dawn twilight;

(2) Momentarily, in the twilight, she takes the form of a great black bird; and

(3) Sam is told, later, that she does not lie.

That is not necessarily a conclusive set of observations - but they are strong hints, coming from an author who has already demonstrated careful attention to this character. There may be other hints that bear mentioning here... feel free to point them out if you see any.

I myself DO see further clues in the text that connect Gilly to the divine hags of Irish and Scottish myth. But before exploring those, I want to step back for a moment... and take a look at another mythological allusion already built into Gilly's name.

I didn't see this one at first, myself - but sort of stumbled onto it. And since (I think) it sort of breaks this whole thing wide open... I'm gonna talk about it IN PART 3 of this obscenely long "post."

[END PART 2]

I can't wait to see the rest of this.

[Black Crow]

Alright, I keep thinking I'm going to get a chunk of time when I can write my big 'Gilly' post - but it's not going to happen. So I'm piecing together some thoughts I have written out, but then I'm just gonna start typing, pausing for interruptions, and charging through. Part of my problem is that I keep thinking of more info to include, and wanting more time to integrate it well, but let's just see where this goes. If I just put this stuff out there, you folks can fix it up better than I can myself anyway...

Interesting stuff indeed and I'm looking forward to the next episode. The only comment I'd make at this stage is that I don't see any evidence that Gilly isn't her name. While I was myself brought up to believe in the power of names and of knowing names, in this case apart from Gilly we have them variously talk about Nella, Ferny and Dyah. These may be nicknames, but they are still spoken.

[Black Crow]

It all makes sense to me, but I'm sorry, I cannot offer specific details on how it will happen - I a not the writer - I just ask questions & look for clues...

I appreciate where you're coming from, but as I said before I still think its a touch over-engineered and that Jon is more than capable of letting the Wolf come out without Varamyr's intervention.

It was precisely because Varamyr was the most powerful (allegedly) skinchanger that we were given an insight through him into how it works. In terms of moving the story on, "brother" Borroq is a far likelier candidate to be a guide and mentor

[Black Crow]

I'm not persuaded he did. To me, he acquiesced when Jon independently decided he would be best off in the Watch.

Indeed, it wasn't Ned's idea to send Jon to the Wall. Its an argument which takes place in AGoT Catelyn 2. Ned is taking some of the kids to King's Landing, but intends leaving Jon with Robb. Catelyn refuses to have him. Ned objects he can't take him to Court and its all getting quite heated when Maester Luwin butts in to say that Jon wants to go to the Wall.

ETA: on the wider issue of what Ned knew, it has been very plausibly suggested that he in fact knew dangerously little because Brandon was the heir and he himself was fostered with Jon Arryn. Thus when both his father, Lord Rickard and his elder brother Brandon (the heir) were both murdered by Aerys, a lot of the family secrets died with them.

[addicted to snow]

Indeed, it wasn't Ned's idea to send Jon to the Wall. Its an argument which takes place in AGoT Catelyn 2. Ned is taking some of the kids to King's Landing, but intends leaving Jon with Robb. Catelyn refuses to have him. Ned objects he can't take him to Court and its all getting quite heated when Maester Luwin butts in to say that Jon wants to go to the Wall.

ETA: on the wider issue of what Ned knew, it has been very plausibly suggested that he in fact knew dangerously little because Brandon was the heir and he himself was fostered with Jon Arryn. Thus when both his father, Lord Rickard and his elder brother Brandon (the heir) were both murdered by Aerys, a lot of the family secrets died with them.

Surely Richard knew that there was at least a small chance that neither He nor Brandon would ever see Winterfell again (given all the conspiracies, the mental state of the Mad King, and his paranoia regarding the Major Houses forming alliances). I'm inclined to believe that Richard entrusted all (100%) of the ancient Stark Secrets (the Secrets regarding Winter, 'There must always be a Stark in Winterfell', the purpose of the tunnel to the Black Gate, etc, etc…) with Benjin.

I think Benjin took these secrets seriously & of course passed the secrets along to Ned. However, given that Ned left Winterfell when he was but 8 years old, he didn't get to spend enough time with Richard to learn that the secrets are more than just fairy tales. Therefore Ned has dismissed much of the Stark Lore as mere superstition, forgotten much, & was a poor steward of any of the secrets that he did believe.

Personally, I believe that Benjin lives, & as previously stated, I think he knows the Stark Secrets - which probably has something to do with his disappearance.

[addicted to snow]

I appreciate where you're coming from, but as I said before I think its a touch over-engineered and that Jon is more than capable of letting the Wolf come out without Varamyr's intervention.

From a writing standpoint, it does not seem any more over-engineered than the rest of the books… For example look at the events that transpired between Drogo, Dany, MMD from the time that Drogo's shoulder was cut until he was burned… Another example would be to look at the trials & tribulations of Theon Greyjoy… These are examples of two highly-engineered threads in the books...

GRRM has many time mentioned or been questioned about his early plans for a 5-year gap between books. I do not claim to know what all of the purposes were for the gap, but a few seem rather obvious:

• Arya would have plenty of time to become an experienced Faceless-Man Assassin

Bran would have plenty of time to surf the Weir-Net, becoming a master hacker

Well, we know that the 5-year gap plans were tossed out, yet these characters are progressing rather well:

• Arya is driven by determination, she is gifted with a natural talent, and is well on her way.

Bran is proving to learn at an accelerated rate (not unlike myself), soon Bran will be the one teaching Bloodraven (which is a good thing because I don't foresee Bloodraven living much longer)

And back to Jon… Other characters are well positioned by GRRM & well on their way to becoming proficient at the skills that GRRM needs them to have. However, Jon's progression is equal to Bran's while Bran was in his coma in GoTs… Jon is so far behind the other characters that will require a catalysts of some sort in order to gain his needed proficiencies. Keep in mind, that Jon will not just be proficient at the resolution, "Jon has dark roads to walk" - He'll be Wreaking Havoc long before resolutions starts to show his head. In fact, I would guess that according to GRRM's plans, Jon will need to be Warging / Skinchanging Rockstar by the end of TWOW. This cannot be do without a catalysts… Varamyr is that catalysts...

The more I think about the more I know it is correct. Look at all the seemingly unnecessary personality traits GRRM gave to us for Varamyr, the backstory, 'Abomination!', 'Abomination!', 'Abomination!' ringing in his head - the reader has not heard the last of that!

Who will give me 2 to one odds if I put up $1,000 that Varamyr gets into Jon's head?

It was precisely because Varamyr was the most powerful (allegedly) skinchanger that we were given an insight through him into how it works. In terms of moving the story on, "brother" Borroq is a far likelier candidate to be a guide and mentor

I have no doubt that Borroq was planted at the wall by GRRM in order to interact with Jon soon after he enters Ghost (at the time of his True Death).

GRRM painted Borroq as a 'dark', mysterious character. He hung out in the solitude of grave yards, and was frequently described as standing in dark or shadowed places. This does not mean that Borroq is evil, or has cruel intentions necessarily, perhaps GRRM just wants the reader to think that.

I agree in that Borroq will provide Jon with a learning experience - whether it be through teaching or if Borroq will make an attempt to acquire Ghost as well. We know that Varamyr desired Ghost, so perhaps Borroq does too? Though there is definitely a plot-related reason that GRRM chose to give Borroq a pig rather than a wolf. Regardless of what Borroq's intentions are, there will surely be a learning experience that takes place between Borroq & Jon. I do not foresee Borroq mentoring Jon though, the learning experience will be a one-time-event.

As to the over-engineered idea: This seems very

[addicted to snow]

JonNonRegis;

When you have time, I would appreciate it if you would evaluate the ideas in my last 4-5 post regarding my 'Varamyr gets in Jon's head' Theory… I am interested in thorough, open-minded analysis as well as your ability to use your imagination to theorize while making sure that you keep a tight reign on your imagination.

I cannot think if any other plausible scenario that would sufficiently accelerate Jon's learning curve.

Also, kick the idea around with your 3rd party friends, I'm interested in their thoughts as well.

I've been listening to the books lately & trying to 'think like a writer', hoping that this mindset would help reveal hidden clues… The overwhelming amount of detail, backstory, personality, mannerisms, etc, etc that GRRM gave for Varamyr did not make sense for a character who GRRM knew was going to die in a matter of pages. This is what originally got me thinking...

My confidence grows on this idea the more I discuss it, there is just no other way for Jon to gain the tools he needs in one book… You can't take a guy who has never even used a computer & turn him into a master computer programmer in a year… Same thing with Jon, he doesn't even know he is a Warg / Skinchanger, so how is he going to become a black-belt in Warging / Skinchanging without some major catalyst taking place...

[addicted to snow]

Even though i believe that V.Sixskins purpose and part in this was already expressed. Mainly info of the reliable and unreliable nature i must say i am very intrigued by where you're going with this.If that was to happen it would be nice to see V.Sixskins as an echo in Jon's conscious,it reminds me of Elia and Vladimir Hakkonen in Dune.

I honestly, don't believe V.Sixskins ( even if he had his body)has it in him to wrest Ghost from Jon. The belief that when a Skinchanger dies they live out their second life in their familiar is an important plot device. Also,this wasn't just Haggon's belief,Leaf and Blood raven expressed the same thing to Bran when he encountered the Singers in the Crows( ADWD),so based on those accounts i have to go with V.Sixskins slowly disappearing in One eye, if the Wights didn't get him first. Haggon,Leaf and BR can't all be unreliable when it comes to this particular issue.I believe that talk with him taking Ghost was just bravado.He clearly early on in his childhood had some self esteem issues which turned into a narcissistic type personality disorder because he was skilled at bending varied animals to his will.He to me foolishly thought that he could take Ghost because of the error that it was Jon who chose Ghost and not the other way around ( my belief).I still hold true to Ghost choosing Jon and not Jon choosing him.

Let's say that Haggon was correct & you are 'stuck' inside of one animal during your 2nd life… The Author could always have a wild card up his sleeve… I don't claim to know how Varamyr get's into Jon's head, only that he gets there…

I agree, it is interesting, and would help turn Jon into the Bad-Guy antagonists that I want him to be...

Haggon's Reliability:

During the course of the Prologue, Varamyr mentioned a number of things that Haggon had presented as fact regarding Warging / Skinchanging. Then Later in the Prolgue Haggon was proven wrong by Varamyr's actions or by the behavior of other Wargs / Skinchangers and what not. Haggon was "afraid to his gift" he was fearful to explore it's full potential, and seems to me to be a bit superstitious in much of the information he gave Varamyr.

About the CotF inside of ravens… Does it ever say that the CotF are trapped inside of a single host for the duration of their 2nd life?

--

If we recall, Varamyr took Haggon's Beast after Haggon's true death. This means that faint piece of Haggon is inside of Varamyr's head… We know this because at one point Varamyr hears the word 'Abomination' and he asks was "was that me? Thistle?, or was that Haggon? [meaning which one of the voices in my head said that?] Haggon has lived a 2nd life, and you would think that he would know the rules… However, being fearful of his gift, he might not have even tried to leave his 2nd-life-host, I believe his 2nd life was very brief anyway...

Still, that fact that a piece of Haggon (who like Varamyr was in his 2nd Life) ended up inside of Varamyr, means that there is definitely prescidence for Varamyr to somehow end up in Jon's head...

[LynnS]

Let's say that Haggon was correct & you are 'stuck' inside of one animal during your 2nd life… The Author could always have a wild card up his sleeve… I don't claim to know how Varamyr get's into Jon's head, only that he gets there…

I agree, it is interesting, and would help turn Jon into the Bad-Guy antagonists that I want him to be...

Haggon's Reliability:

During the course of the Prologue, Varamyr mentioned a number of things that Haggon had presented as fact regarding Warging / Skinchanging. Then Later in the Prolgue Haggon was proven wrong by Varamyr's actions or by the behavior of other Wargs / Skinchangers and what not. Haggon was "afraid to his gift" he was fearful to explore it's full potential, and seems to me to be a bit superstitious in much of the information he gave Varamyr.

About the CotF inside of ravens… Does it ever say that the CotF are trapped inside of a single host for the duration of their 2nd life?

--

If we recall, Varamyr took Haggon's Beast after Haggon's true death. This means that faint piece of Haggon is inside of Varamyr's head… We know this because at one point Varamyr hears the word 'Abomination' and he asks was "was that me? Thistle?, or was that Haggon? [meaning which one of the voices in my head said that?] Haggon has lived a 2nd life, and you would think that he would know the rules… However, being fearful of his gift, he might not have even tried to leave his 2nd-life-host, I believe his 2nd life was very brief anyway...

Still, that fact that a piece of Haggon (who like Varamyr was in his 2nd Life) ended up inside of Varamyr, means that there is definitely prescidence for Varamyr to somehow end up in Jon's head...

It's an interesting idea. So how can this work? Skinchanging is predicated on some animals being easier to enter and control than others and whether or not they have been ridden or accustomed to having another presence take over. It also depends on the skill of the warg/skinchanger and their familiarity with the host species. Has Varamyr taken another human before? Is his current body, his original body?

If Ghost is able to enter Jon, then Jon could be at risk from Varamyr/One-Eye; if he uses Ghost as a conduit to Jon. There is nothing saying that Varamyr can't do this; only that there is a moral code of conduct, which he ignores; that says he shouldn't do it. I don't think Varamyr's soul is fixed to his human body or immediately fixed in One-Eye.

It opens up the idea that more than one entity can inhabit one body as we see with Bran and Hodor. It brings to mind Maelys the Monstrous with his two heads and possibly Euron Greyjoy with his laughing blue eye and his crow's eye filled with malice. I get the impression that there is more than one entity inhabiting his body.

I do think that Jon is the dragon with three heads. It would be interesting storytelling if this is the meaning rather than three dragon-riders in the literal sense. Perhaps this is the significance of Jon's paternity.

I think it is the greenseer who tells Bran that all the crows have had previous "riders". And there is a question about Mormont's Raven. How old is that bird and how long has it been around perching on the shoulder's of Lord Commanders? And how many ravens have lived and died and been replaced by that rider? If Jon is used to Ghost "riding" him; is this a weakness that Varamyr can exploit?

So the question becomes who will ride the dragon rather than who will ride the three dragons.

The Pale Horse has already made an appearance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Apocalypse

Edit: Addendum

We could ask who has an affinity with Ghost? Who are the red, white and black riders? Do they inhabit Jon at once or sequentially? If Ghost belongs to the old gods, does this point to the Three Eyed Crow or Bran? Mel and Val seem to have a demonstrated affinity with ghost.

When Mel says that she has seen Jon surrounded by enemies and it was very cold; how does she experience the cold when it doesn't normally affect her? Does she experience the cold from within Jon via Ghost? When Ghost contemplates Jon through the fire on the Fist of the First Men; is Mel present in Ghost seeing Jon through the flames? Is this similar to Bran contacting Jon using Ghost as a conduit?