dmo862000 Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Okay so for those not from the United States and not aware of United States politics the term 'neo-con' (neoconservative) became especially prevalent during the Administration of George W. Bush (2001-2008). It specifically referred to certain folks within the administration including Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Pearle, Rumsfeld, Cheney etc. It became especially prevalent during the lead up to the invasion of Iraq and potential war with other nations such as Iran. The neo-cons took an 'us versus them' approach, everything is black or white, there is no grey or middle ground. You are right or you are evil. I'm not trying to start a huge political debate here and I actually like Stannis to an extent but a part of me also thinks he would fall into the neoconservative foreign policy realm in a modern day era (also by neoconservative I am NOT referring to libertarians who would actually be opposed to most of those actions and am instead referring to the new...ish foreign policy developed by certain actors within the Bush administration that advocated an 'us vs. them' approach and believed in the Bush doctrine of preemptive strikes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaarioKnowsBest Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 He's certainly not a guy you want to "have a beer with" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmo862000 Posted November 21, 2013 Author Share Posted November 21, 2013 I'd have a beer with Bush... probably not Cheney. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skoboe Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 I don't think Westeros has an Agenda 21-type group controlling world politics lol...if they did, each kingdom would be in financial ruins and taxing the populace for emitting a natural gas...Winter is Coming alright - let's slap a tax on that bitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmo862000 Posted November 21, 2013 Author Share Posted November 21, 2013 Yeah I guess what I'm more referring to is a big 'what if' as in 'what if' Stannis was transplanted into a 2000-era America and was developing foreign policy. I have a hard time believing he would be a COlin Powell and see him more being an extreme hardliner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaarioKnowsBest Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 He would pander to liberals by showing off his no tolerance for rape stance but lose their vote for his campaign to eliminate internet porn and his raiding of marijuana dispenseries.Not sure where he would be on gay marriage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Better_off_Ned Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Okay so for those not from the United States and not aware of United States politics the term 'neo-con' (neoconservative) became especially prevalent during the Administration of George W. Bush (2001-2008). It specifically referred to certain folks within the administration including Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Pearle, Rumsfeld, Cheney etc. It became especially prevalent during the lead up to the invasion of Iraq and potential war with other nations such as Iran. The neo-cons took an 'us versus them' approach, everything is black or white, there is no grey or middle ground. You are right or you are evil. I'm not trying to start a huge political debate here and I actually like Stannis to an extent but a part of me also thinks he would fall into the neoconservative foreign policy realm in a modern day era (also by neoconservative I am NOT referring to libertarians who would actually be opposed to most of those actions and am instead referring to the new...ish foreign policy developed by certain actors within the Bush administration that advocated an 'us vs. them' approach and believed in the Bush doctrine of preemptive strikes).No.Stannis is not advocating interventionary war on foreign lands, a primary concern of the neocons. He is battling for a land he believes himself to be the rightful heir to. Neocons are not simply black-and-white moralists. I'd like them more if they were. They are generally chicken hawks. Stannis is no chicken hawk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe42m1 Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 I don't think Stannis sees it as "we're right and they're wrong", but rather "right is right and wrong is wrong, and all should be rewarded or punished accordingly". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaarioKnowsBest Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 I don't think Stannis sees it as "we're right and they're wrong", but rather "right is right and wrong is wrong, and all should be rewarded or punished accordingly".Both of those philosophies are equally scary to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsOfBrains Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Yeah i could see Stannis as a neo-con. He tried to outlaw whoring (legislating morality), he is waging a war at least partly based on religion, he has bankrupted himself on wars and neglected all other aspects of his society. Didn't Bush claim to be on a mission from god and that god spoke to him directly? Yeah, I could buy that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 He's certainly not a guy you want to "have a beer with"Who the fuck cares if the guy in charge isnt someone you would have a beer with? A rulers job is not to get drunk with the people, its to rule. Thats the whole appeal of stannis, instead of getting drunk hes actually you know, doing his fucking job. Besides, the chances of you having a drink with any sort of leader in real life is pretty low. So it seems irrelevant. Have a beer with your friends. He would pander to liberals by showing off his no tolerance for rape stance but lose their vote for his campaign to eliminate internet porn and his raiding of marijuana dispenseries.Not sure where he would be on gay marriageOnce again, your posts never cease to amaze dude. Holy shit. No.Stannis is not advocating interventionary war on foreign lands, a primary concern of the neocons. He is battling for a land he believes himself to be the rightful heir to.This. As for Stannis being a neocon if he was in america. I don't see it. He would be a completely different person if he grew up in modern america. He is shaped by his life experiences, right now he is what westeros needs badly. But if he was transported to america he same exact man he is, I cant say what type of politician he would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Dayne Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Is Stannis a Neo-Con? I think to answer the question requires a more comprehensive understanding of what a neo-conservative is. We have to remember that neo-conservatism isn't a domestic ideology, it's a foreign policy ideology.. Neo-conservatives have an almost evangelical desire to spread democratic values. It started actually among Cold War Hawks in the Senate Democratic caucus like Scoop Jackson and Daniel Moynihan. At it's core, it's an extension of what was known once as Democratic Peace Theory. A belief that democracies tend not to go to war against one another. Neo-cons just take it step further to then say that force is clearly necessary to ensure we create as many democracies as possible. By that standard, no. Stannis is not a Neo-Con. He's more of a realist seeking a balance of power, particularly since the Blackwater. He sees the others as the opposing polarity and he's trying to balance them by uniting forces South of the Wall such as the Wildlings and the North. I'd actually argue that Daenerys is the Neo-Con. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antler's Fury Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Yeah i could see Stannis as a neo-con. He tried to outlaw whoring (legislating morality), he is waging a war at least partly based on religion, he has bankrupted himself on wars and neglected all other aspects of his society. Didn't Bush claim to be on a mission from god and that god spoke to him directly? Yeah, I could buy that. Aside from attempting to outlaw whoring, I don't see it. He didn't really bankrupt himself on wars, he basically just got Renly's resources and then lost them. He's essentially back where he started, power wise. His war is partially based on religion, but Stannis himself is an agnostic who views religion with contempt, not a neo-con thing. He does not advocate interference in foreign affairs. That's why, for instance he's able to hire Salla, a known Lyseni smuggler, without compromising his principles. Were Salla Westerosi, like Davos, Stannis would have taken his fingers, but what happens in the Free Cities is of no concern to Stannis. I'd actually argue that Daenerys is the Neo-Con Good point. Dany tries to spread "freedom" to barbaric areas she has no business meddling in, and creates chaos worse than the barbarism she tried to fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaarioKnowsBest Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Who the fuck cares if the guy in charge isnt someone you would have a beer with? A rulers job is not to get drunk with the people, its to rule. Thats the whole appeal of stannis, instead of getting drunk hes actually you know, doing his fucking job. Besides, the chances of you having a drink with any sort of leader in real life is pretty low. So it seems irrelevant. Have a beer with your friends. Calm down, you obviously didn't get the reference. "Having a beer" was a part of Bushs election strategy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Calm down, you obviously didn't get the reference. "Having a beer" was a part of Bushs election strategy Its still dumb as fuck though. Its common type of argument used against Stannis. "no one likes him" or "he isnt fun" thats not the point of a leader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsOfBrains Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Aside from attempting to outlaw whoring, I don't see it. He didn't really bankrupt himself on wars, he basically just got Renly's resources and then lost them. He's essentially back where he started, power wise. His war is partially based on religion, but Stannis himself is an agnostic who views religion with contempt, not a neo-con thing. He does not advocate interference in foreign affairs. That's why, for instance he's able to hire Salla, a known Lyseni smuggler, without compromising his principles. Were Salla Westerosi, like Davos, Stannis would have taken his fingers, but what happens in the Free Cities is of no concern to Stannis. Good point. Dany tries to spread "freedom" to barbaric areas she has no business meddling in, and creates chaos worse than the barbarism she tried to fix. Well the Neocons had no trouble hiring mercenaries like Black Water and Haliburton and or locals who were willing to fight for them. I am going to have to agree with that last statement more so though, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmo862000 Posted November 21, 2013 Author Share Posted November 21, 2013 Neo-Conservatism is not a domestic policy. Its a foreign policy. For sure. Also not disagreeing that Dany is not a neo-conservative. However Stannis does impose ideals on areas that do not fall in line with his beliefs of his kingdom. Burning the tree in Winterfell is a prime example of 'its not our culture, you embrace it or else.' Sure the North is a part of the 7K but thats comparable to the British Empire forcing their customs on India which I would consider a form of neo-conservatism too. You find an area that is not in complete congruence with your ideals and you find them threatening and you force your ideals upon them. Also I'm shitfaced so cut me some slack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmo862000 Posted November 21, 2013 Author Share Posted November 21, 2013 This isn't a knock on Stannis btw. I think in certain situations you need hard leadership. I think, however, Stannis would fit in with the neocons in today's era. I can't think of any other faction of government he would fit in with. WHere else would Stannis fit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaarioKnowsBest Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Id say independent for Stannis, he certainly wouldn't say bullshit just to cozy up to any party.He'd do it his way, which means he would not win a democratic election, because nobody wants to have a beer with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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