Whats up with the Jorah dislike?

[Annara Snow]

I don't think Martin writes Jorah's infatuation with Dany in a way that is supposed to make us want them together. He didn't have to make Dany look like Lynesse, which adds sad/creepy element to this infatuation (it's not terrible, but not endearing, either). And if a writer wants people to be all "Oh, his love for this woman is so pure and admirable" he doesn't make his hero go to brothel and pick up a whore who looks like his love so that he can fuck her and pretend she's it. It's not some terrible crime, but again, it's creepy and pathetic. It can make one feel sorry for Jorah in "poor pathetic dude" way, but generally, wouldn't make one want to see him together with his love interest whom he fetishizes in this way.

Dany also has far higher, loftier inspirations than Jorah. He's willing to give up his honor and human decency to get into woman's pants, be it Dany or his ex. Dany, even when in love, still has interests and goals like ending slavery.

I think if she gets some "ultimate" love interest, it will be someone like that. Not Daario, who represents her "fire" side, but not Jorah, either. He just doesn't measure up.

Jorah doesn't really seem to have very high morals to begin with. He's perfectly accepting of slavery as long as it gets you results, and he was always advising Dany to make more 'pragmatic' and immoral decisions, like using a slave army to conquer Westeros, and telling her that morals don't win wars. She made her best decisions when she went against his advice.

[ViserionsFire]

Jorah being attracted to 14yo Dany is nothing really bad imo, because as stated on several pages in the book, being 14yo means almost being an adult, like grown up and mature and stuff, like 17yo nowadays. Might not make it any better, but whatever.

Also, Planetos is 30% larger than earth, so years are longer. Therefore, the age of a person there would be 30% lower than someone on earth. For example, if Sansa is 13 on Planetos, she would be 17 on earth.

[Annara Snow]

Also, Planetos is 30% larger than earth, so years are longer. Therefore, the age of a person there would be 30% lower than someone on earth. For example, if Sansa is 13 on Planetos, she would be 17 on earth.

Now that's really stretching it. If GRRM ever meant for these people to be older than their stated age, he would have said that.

And Sansa wouldn't be getting her first period at 12, nor would Arya still be a pre-pubescent girl.

[AdelinaZ]

The age thing doesn't bother me so much since in-series 13- year- olds get married and what not, but Jorah does have many issues with women and he comes aross as desperate. It's not that I hate him (I don't really care about him one way or another), but I can't find any reasons for which I should like him, really. He should get over it.

[Guardian of the Lhazareen]

I guess people don't like how he was betraying Dany, how he is pathetically enfatuaded by her and how he was a slaver.... but personally I think he is a boss and a bad ass, espeialy when he kills those dothraki for laughing at him lol, and the dude even unhorsed jaime lanister!!! plus he is a beast!!

[ViserionsFire]

The age thing doesn't bother me so much since in-series 13- year- olds get married and what not, but Jorah does have many issues with women and he comes aross as desperate. It's not that I hate him (I don't really care about him one way or another), but I can't find any reasons for which I should like him, really. He should get over it.

Well the guys got a narly tat covering his face that tells everyone that he is a slave. Unlike Tyrion and Penny being a comedy act, Jorah's only worth is being a grunt that intimately reveals how the lowest level of slaves are treated. No matter how Tyrion works things out with BB, Jorah may never truly recover as he'll always have his brand as a reminder.

[Cruella]

Jorah doesn't really seem to have very high morals to begin with. He's perfectly accepting of slavery as long as it gets you results, and he was always advising Dany to make more 'pragmatic' and immoral decisions, like using a slave army to conquer Westeros, and telling her that morals don't win wars. She made her best decisions when she went against his advice.

Yes, he's not the kind of person who could make her "better". So their potential union doesn't have some promise of positive developments for Dany. Over than helping Jorah satisfy his itch, I am not sure why we should be rooting for the two.

Jorah doesn't measure up not because his valour is in question. He doesn't measure up because Dany wants to do something with her life (and did already), she wants her life to matter, she has goals and inspirations apart from being with Daario. Jorah's entire life revolves around whoever he's obsessed with. Everything else goes out of the window. He doesn't have strong moral core, values he wouldnt toss aside for a woman he's obsessing over, and he has no calling, higher goal, his entire existance is about his love interest. And it's pathetic in both men and women.

Women in Westeros at least have an excuse that they were taught this their entire lives.

I am also not sure he gets this part of who Dany is. He doesn't love her because she's hot blonde chick who's willing to fight for freedom of others. He loves her because she' hot blonde chick.

[Tyrion1991]

Yes, he's not the kind of person who could make her "better". So their potential union doesn't have some promise of positive developments for Dany. Over than helping Jorah satisfy his itch, I am not sure why we should be rooting for the two.

Jorah doesn't measure up not because his valour is in question. He doesn't measure up because Dany wants to do something with her life (and did already), she wants her life to matter, she has goals and inspirations apart from being with Daario. Jorah's entire life revolves around whoever he's obsessed with. Everything else goes out of the window. He doesn't have strong moral core, values he wouldnt toss aside for a woman he's obsessing over, and he has no calling, higher goal, his entire existance is about his love interest. And it's pathetic in both men and women.

Women in Westeros at least have an excuse that they were taught this their entire lives.

I am also not sure he gets this part of who Dany is. He doesn't love her because she's hot blonde chick who's willing to fight for freedom of others. He loves her because she' hot blonde chick.

I disagree with the last point. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that who Dany is important to Jorah beyond simply a sex object. He does say that there is more of Rhaegar in her. I think he does see her as a strong leader. He does compliment her assessment of the Astapori defenses and he is impressed by her plan to destroy the Yunkish army in ASOS. Their entire first book together has nothing to do with his sexual attraction to her and its mainly them talking to eachother about morals and how best to take Westeros. He says that she can't expect the smallfolk to make her Queen and has to think about how Aegon did it; with Fire and Blood. She needs might before she can make right. There is also the fact that he calls Dany in the kiss scene and "sweetest" and "bravest" girl hes ever known. Those are character assessments and he lists them as things which draw him to Dany. Remember also, hes from Bear Island. We are told in Cats POV that women from Bear Island fight and that this is a socially valued and lauded thing. I don't think its coincidental that he was brought up in that background and says he finds Danys bravery a good thing. It probably also explains why is so okay with her being in charge despite being a woman; which is a big deal for most male non-POV characters in this series. So I think the character does show an active interest in Daenerys the person and its not just the result of physical appearance, nor do I think their relationship is purely about his romantic obsession with her.

Thats simply incorrect. His other motivations are well known and stated. Getting back to Bear Island, "home" and regaining his honor. Neither of those things have entered the story because Jorahs story revolves around Dany n Tyrions and until they get to Westeros he cannot obviously do anything about this. He also hasn't learned about things like Jeors being dead, his fathers last words, or even things like Dacey being gutted at the Red Wedding. These things would have a huge impact on the characters motivation and "higher calling" as you put it. Plus, things like mentoring and protecting Daenerys who is AA reborn/true queen of Westeros is a pretty dam good higher calling in of itself. As we saw in AGOT, there is no reason he cannot do that without a romantic attachment. Jorah is simply in the very fortunate position (it would be very interesting if he fell for another woman BTW) that his duty and love are the same thing with Daenerys.

He does have a strong moral core but he does willfully choose love over duty. If he didn't then he wouldn't have left Longclaw behind as an admission that he'd done wrong.

It would be positive in the following ways IMO

* He would make a good King-Consort. He would follow her lead, but still be strong in mind and body. Unlike Victarion, who would want all the power, he would sincerely be willing to live in her shadow. Having a husband who will challenge and subvert your authority is not always good if you want to be in charge. If he is a strong guy who can lead armies and command respect then this has few real drawbacks.

* Dany is quick thinking and wants to rush to action with her passions boldly driving her. Jorah is a calm and conservative character who can always offer a good counterpoint and insight into Danys action. The whole good advice thing, these two modes of thinking are complimentary because by clashing different views you reach the right one. This is precisely how these two characters interact during the first three books and it does work.

* Marrying a Northman, even if he isn't a Stark, would still do a lot to reconcile the northerners to Targaryen rule. Ned himself says that the Mormonts are a respected and ancient house.

* Don't you want to see lots of silver haired Daceys running around and flying dragons?

[Cruella]

* Don't you want to see lots of silver haired Daceys running around and flying dragons?

While hunting northern kids to sell them to Essos brothels, best price guaranteed? It has certain anti-utopia feel. And would improve Northern finances.

I imagine them with silver hair on their heads and lots and lots of hair on their bodies, Jorah-like. But there is nothing wrong with THAT.

* Dany is quick thinking and wants to rush to action with her passions boldly driving her. Jorah is a calm and conservative character who can always offer a good counterpoint and insight into Danys action.

Yes, he's a good advisor. His cynicism, lack of scruples, and common sense are good counterpoints to Dany. But she doesn't need to fuck him to get his advise. And there are other sane people she could ask for it.

Wanting back home after becoming pathetic exile is not a high goal. Of course he doesn't like being nobody in Essos. Wanting to protect North from wildlings would be one such goal. Jon is a character who put his love and selfish needs aside to fight to protect North from them, just like Dany set aside her selfish desires for Daario to do what was necessary for her people. Quality that Jorah never possessed. Gods, I can't believe I am advocating this pairing as it is sure to bore me to death.

But even wanting to become maester or best embroider ever would be a goal. Not being Mr. Dany Targaryen. What's interesting about a guy like this? I can't stand it in women either.

If he cared that much about going home, why not try to go to the Wall instead of trying to get back into Dany's graces?

[SeanF]

In terms of his pragmatism, intelligence, and lack of scruple, I find Ser Jorah similar to Bronn, although I doubt if Bronn has ever fallen in love.

[Parwan]

In terms of his pragmatism, intelligence, and lack of scruple, I find Ser Jorah similar to Bronn, although I doubt if Bronn has ever fallen in love.

Now, there's an interesting concept--Bronn in love. Do we even admit that this is possible?

We might ask the same question about other characters:

Drogo

Daario

Aerys

...

There are men for whom the answer would have to be "no." Ramsay, for example, would never love anyone but Ramsay. For other guys, one might say, "Well, it depends on what you mean by 'love'." Jorah certainly has fallen in love. In his case, this is not a good thing. He's a sort of alcoholic of romance. The man just can't handle it.

[straits]

Also, Planetos is 30% larger than earth, so years are longer. Therefore, the age of a person there would be 30% lower than someone on earth. For example, if Sansa is 13 on Planetos, she would be 17 on earth.

Interesting point, but this would make days longer, not years. Planetos (GRRTH?) could spin around its sun faster, or move at the same speed as Earth if relative distances from their stars are the same.

[Le Cygne]

In terms of his pragmatism, intelligence, and lack of scruple, I find Ser Jorah similar to Bronn, although I doubt if Bronn has ever fallen in love.

Very interesting. Bronn in love. Must think about this some more.

[Baelor Swyft]

I don't really think the issue is whether or not Jorah is intended to be sympathetic, or whether we're intended to want to see him with Dany. The intention is that this is a nuanced and extremely vast cast of characters, and who you find agreeable will be based on your own personal perspective. I don't think GRRM had any one opinion in mind for what he wants the readers to think of Jorah.

Me, I disliked him until he recently has been humbled in DwD and I'm hoping he can take those lessons he has learned and improve upon himself.

[SeanF]

Le Cygne, clearly he doesn't love Lollys. But, he might be a good deal less bad than other potential husbands, who would just abuse her and treat her as a figure of fun. For Bronn, she's his passport into the ranks of the nobility.

[ViserionsFire]

Interesting point, but this would make days longer, not years. Planetos (GRRTH?) could spin around its sun faster, or move at the same speed as Earth if relative distances from their stars are the same.

I brought this up as an alternate viewpoint. As I'm no cosmologist and limited to viewing the sun, moon and stars with my eyes only, my scientific credibility is lacking. However, as a thought to spin rate, could we dealing with gravitational factors that may effect conditions that we take for granted. Example: If the earth was spinning faster, would we as beings, continue to be the size we are; would plants stay rooted; would ocean currents and wave action effect land mass differently; would the balance of hydrogen and oxygen be maintained? If the spin rate is the same as earth, I could see seasons being affected and as the days are longer, so would be the years. Perhaps someone with knowledge of this will step up.

[Rysler]

I rather like him, though I don't enjoy his arrogance or hypocrisy. And it annoyed me to no end whenever he beat up Tyrion for speaking words true.

[straits]

I brought this up as an alternate viewpoint. As I'm no cosmologist and limited to viewing the sun, moon and stars with my eyes only, my scientific credibility is lacking. However, as a thought to spin rate, could we dealing with gravitational factors that may effect conditions that we take for granted. Example: If the earth was spinning faster, would we as beings, continue to be the size we are; would plants stay rooted; would ocean currents and wave action effect land mass differently; would the balance of hydrogen and oxygen be maintained? If the spin rate is the same as earth, I could see seasons being affected and as the days are longer, so would be the years. Perhaps someone with knowledge of this will step up.

We could construct a worksheet on this but I doubt GRRM thought it through to anywhere near this level of detail...

But a different oxygen ratio would mean different sizes of animals (and humans).

[pamparius]

He keeps getting totally obsessed with 13-14 year old girls. That's pathetic and quite creepy.

Sure, by our standards its abhorrent... But, 14-15 year olds are getting married off in westeros. It's not fair to judge characters by our parameters for socially incorrect behavior, especially when said behavior is the cultural norm.

But, hey, that's just me.

[SeanF]

Sure, by our standards its abhorrent... But, 14-15 year olds are getting married off in westeros. It's not fair to judge characters by our parameters for socially incorrect behavior, especially when said behavior is the cultural norm.

But, hey, that's just me.

I suppose what is creepy is that Dany is very small, and very slender, for her age. She eats like a bird, and Missandei calls her "such a tiny thing". So, when she turns up in Pentos, she's 12, she probably looks about 9 or 10, 50 year old Illyrio can hardly keep his hands off her, and Viserys wants to rape her. When she marries Drogo, she looks about 11, and Jorah is drooling over a girl who looks 12.