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The Jon's Parentage Re-Read 2


Jon Targaryen

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And I don't think that Ned "He's my blood!" Stark is actually Jon's father.

Perhaps I can answer that question first then. I think once we convince you that Ned is Jon's father, we can move on to identifying his mother ;) To be honest I've been half waiting for JT to say that the thread is completely open. This is his thread, and I generally agree with his attempt to give it structure even as I've been imperfect in maintaining it. To respond incompletely to only one of your substantive and generally excellent points; I think the test of secrecy is difficult to fulfill with any low-born mother including Wylla but I agree, it's a difficulty.

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Sorry I've been absent for awhile. I haven't been as active on the boards lately.

Anyway, here is my summary and conclusion. Here is a link to the quotes which I will use throughout the post.

Jon’s Parentage Re-Read Summary

We know Jon has some Stark blood from the descriptions given of him early in AGOT. There are descriptions given on AGOT p.14, AGOT p.47 and AGOT p.103.

As Stark father

Brandon and Rickard – they died too early to be the father. GRRM said in an SSM dated July 11th 1999 that Jon was conceived some 3 or 4 months into the war.

As non-Stark father (Lyanna is mother)

Robert – “the seed is strong.†Theory over.

Anyone else on the Rebellion’s side – they would have had to run into Lyanna some three to four months into the war, impregnate her, and either escape without her or be killed. It seems unlikely they would do the above two and escape without Ned mentioning it and if they died then their identity is pretty pointless, imo.

The three KG – these were the most honorable knights in the realm. A “shining lesson to the world.†It is very doubtful they would break their vows and impregnate Lyanna. It is still technically possible but I eliminate them.

Anyone else on the Loyalist side – Rhaegar was “away†for most of the war and isolated from most all of the loyalists. He was alone with Lyanna, maybe Arthur, then the other two KG, and perhaps some retainers at the tower of joy. Trusted friends could have visited Rhaegar there though.

The retainers – The same applies as for the others on the Rebellion side. Some random maester or some squire being the father seems pointless.

For Lyanna as mother, that leaves Rhaegar and for a Stark as father that leaves Ned and Benjen.

Benjen

He was presumably the Stark in Winterfell during the War. He could have fathered Jon but he would have to somehow travel very far south when he should have been in Winterfell. Then he leaves the woman he sleeps with and his unborn baby in the south. Then Ned would pick him up and take him north. Seems unlikely. And why not let Benjen raise his bastard as his own and stay out of the Watch? And why not tell Catelyn and Jon of Jon’s parentage? It doesn’t make much sense.

Ned and Wylla

Ned first mentions Wylla in AGOT on p.92 from Week 2. He does respond to Robert’s question of who the mother is with her name. This seems to settle the matter. She next comes up through Edric Dayne in ASOS on p.494 from Week 8, saying Wylla is Jon’s mother through Ned. However, Edric’s story does not make sense. Why would Ned, who was in love with Ashara according to Edric, sleep with Ashara’s servant? It only makes sense in that Edric is young and has not thought it through and also that he only has the information through hearsay.

There is a problem with Ned and Wylla. Why did Ned not tell Catelyn and Jon? There is really no big deal in Westeros with a nobleman fathering a bastard on a common woman. It happens all the time. The big deal was Ned taking Jon to live with himself. But that could be explained by saying the Starks are “not like other men.†However, there is no reason not to tell Catelyn and Jon who the mother is if the mother is indeed Wylla.

Ned and Ashara

We first see mention of Ashara in AGOT on p.55 from Week 2. Catelyn is thinking of Jon Snow and Ned’s view on caring for his bastard when Ashara comes up. In Catelyn’s mind, Ashara is clearly a candidate for Jon’s mother since Ned went to Starfall to return Dawn, where Ashara was. Also, Ned gets angry when he hears Ashara’s name (though this could be from Catelyn asking about Jon) and Ashara’s name is never heard again in Winterfell after their conversation.

From my point of view, Ned’s anger is because he does not want Ashara’s name impugned. That is also why her name is never heard again. It does not have to mean Ashara is the mother.

The next we hear of Ashara is Cersei speculating as to Jon’s mother. She comes up as a possibility. Since it does not seem Cersei would know much about Jon’s parentage, it seems from this that the Ashara story has circulated around somewhat.

Lastly, we hear of Ashara when Edric Dayne brings her up. I covered the problem in that recounting above.

Rhaegar and Lyanna

There are two mentions of Rhaegar and “a woman†that are ambiguous. One is in AGOT on p.25 from Week 1. There Rhaegar is said to have died for the woman he loved. To me, this is GRRM not saying it is Elia to leave R+L hidden. But just thinking about, it could only be Lyanna. How could Rhaegar be said to be dying for Elia?

Next, in ACOK on p.530 Rhaegar is dying and whispers a woman’s name. Same principle applies here. After the hypothesized revelation, it will become clear the “woman†was Lyanna.

“Promise me.†This first comes up in AGOT on p.35. It appears to be burying Lyanna in the crypts but the repeated remembrance of it by Ned disproves that. One thing to notice about this first scene, that is actually tangential to the question of whether R&L are the parents, is that Lyanna is clutching rose petals. We hear that she “loved flowers†so that could be the explanation but also we see in AGOT on p.526 that Rhaegar gave Lyanna a crown of pale blue roses. This could mean that Lyanna did have positive feelings for Rhaegar.

Ned thinks of Lyanna saying “promise me†on p.97 of AGOT. Shortly before, on p.96, he thinks of living his lies for 14 years. That happens to be the age of Jon Snow at the time. Of course the lies could have been something else entirely. But assuming they are of Jon, what lies could Ned be living? More importantly, what lies could he be living that relate to “promise me� The obvious answer is posing as Jon’s father when the child is really Lyanna’s.

On p.299 of AGOT, Ned thinks that some secrets are best kept hidden and some are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust. I think the key is the word “dangerous.†There is absolutely no danger with Wylla. With Ashara the danger is sullying her reputation. Something that would prevent shouting it to the world but not not telling Catelyn and Jon. With Lyannal, however, the danger is vast. Not only would Jon’s life be forfeit, but Ned and his entire family and household might be in danger from Robert as well.

In AGOT on p.318, Ned thinks of the promises he made to Lyanna as she was dying and the price he paid to keep them. Under R+L, this means the distance over Jon between himself and Catelyn and the lying to the whole realm and perceived damage to his own honor.

In AGOT on p.406, “Ned thought, if it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body?†Why does Ned leave Jon out of the list of his children? Maybe Jon is not his child. If so, he is either Lyanna’s or Benjen’s with Lyanna being more likely.

The tower of joy is also important. Ned rides up to the place where Rhaegar has supposedly been secreted away for most of the war, “raping†Lyanna. The three remaining KG loyal to the Targaryens, whose most important job is to guard the life of the king, are still at the tower of joy when Viserys is at Dragonstone. This indicates the Targaryen king is at the tower of joy. This indicates that the Targaryen king is Rhaegar and Lyanna’s child.

I will not go into the Knight of the Laughing Tree story as it is already established through the series that Rhaegar was in some way interested in Lyanna. The KOLT story simply serves to give reasons for that assumption.

Moving beyond “promise me†there is perhaps the strongest evidence for R+L. Ned remembers, in AGOT on p.167, Sansa pleading for Lady’s life as Lyanna pleaded once for … what? The life of her son, Jon. Jon who would be in mortal danger from Robert.

Finally, there is the blue flower in the wall of ice in ACOK on p.530, later referred to as a rose by Jorah who had to get the description from Dany. Blue roses are definitely associated with Lyanna. The wall of ice seems to clearly be the Wall. So who could represent Lyanna at the Wall? The only one we know of is Jon, think. This is also very strong evidence for R+L, imo. The blue roses are also related the to the Bael the Bard story in ACOK on p.561. In it, a musician king abducts a Stark maiden and gets a baby on her. He leaves a blue rose there. This just seems to be more support for R+L, imv.

I tried to come into this re-read with an open mind and I think did have an open mind. But doing the re-read has me more convinced than ever that Rhaegar+Lyanna=Jon.

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Yes I agree too, definitely the best summarizing I ever read.

Yet there is one question – what place played lady Ashara and Wylla? They are somehow connected to each other since Wylla is still serving in Starfall. Ashara suicide could be explained by her romance with Ned who married another and killed her brother but why to name Wylla Jon’s mother? The story of Edric Dayne indeed doesn’t make any sense - what was the true story?

Another thing – Catelyn was very jealous to Jon because he thought that Ned still loved his mother in him. Ned should be completely blind not to notice it over long years and not understanding it was hurting Jon. So if Jon’s mother actually was some servant or camp follower he actually should have told it to wife and this would cause to her to treat his bastard better. Ned been so secretive was bad for Jon so Ned had to have very good reasons for not revealing his mother name.

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First of all, don't underestimate a man's power to take just the wrong emotional tack with his wife. There are recorded instances of prophets being bitten on the ankle by that.

Second, I'm not sure quite how much throwing a name out for Catelyn would have done. (This applies whether Wylla is really Jon's mother or really a cover story.) Ned would clearly not have loved Jon any less, and it's not as if Catelyn could have put a face on Wylla. Anyway, there's no reason to think that Ned thought of Jon's mother as "some servant or camp follower" at the time; if what he felt was real, no matter how temporary or even displaced (my guess is that his parting of ways with Ashara was less pleasant than Ned would have hoped, and Wylla caught him on the rebound) revealing her identity woudn't have assuaged Catelyn's fears one whit.

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silent speaker,

I'm thinking that Cat would have not cared as much if she thought it was just a one time thing, born of grief, instead of thinking that Ned loved the mother.

I always found it strange that Ned never gave Cat the Wylla story. He gave it to Robert. Wylla's been telling the tale as well, if Edric Dayne is to be believed. So why wouldn't Ned tell Cat and Jon? Certainly not because he couldn't lie about it, because if R + L = J then Ned is very accomplished liar and schemer. So it's very strange that he failed to give them some sort of story. It would have mattered little. Ned's honor was already tainted and it would have possibly saved Cat and Jon a lot of grief. It really makes little sense.

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I'm thinking that Cat would have not cared as much if she thought it was just a one time thing, born of grief, instead of thinking that Ned loved the mother.

I always found it strange that Ned never gave Cat the Wylla story. He gave it to Robert. Wylla's been telling the tale as well, if Edric Dayne is to be believed. So why wouldn't Ned tell Cat and Jon? Certainly not because he couldn't lie about it, because if R + L = J then Ned is very accomplished liar and schemer. So it's very strange that he failed to give them some sort of story. It would have mattered little. Ned's honor was already tainted and it would have possibly saved Cat and Jon a lot of grief. It really makes little sense.

Why wouldn’t he tell Cat and Jon what? Another lie?

It’s one thing to have tainted his honor with lies born out of love for his sister, but to compound those with more and more lies and completely decimate his honor? Yes, he could lie about it, but just because he did it once or twice under life or death circumstances doesn’t mean he’d be so willing to sacrifice the rest of his honor – especially when he can accomplish his objective (keeping Jon’s parentage a secret) by simply keeping his silence and squelching any talk about it.

He told Robert because, above everyone else, Robert MUST NOT discover the truth of Jon's parentage. No matter what. It would likely mean Jon's life (and worse). The silent treatment doesn't always work when you're questioned by the King.

I think it makes perfect sense that he didn’t tell Cat the Wylla story, and furthermore, an indication that Wylla is not Jon’s mother.

"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive."

- Lord Eddard Stark ;)

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Why wouldn’t he tell Cat and Jon what? Another lie?

It’s one thing to have tainted his honor with lies born out of love for his sister, but to compound those with more and more lies and completely decimate his honor? Yes, he could lie about it, but just because he did it once or twice under life or death circumstances doesn’t mean he’d be so willing to sacrifice the rest of his honor – especially when he can accomplish his objective (keeping Jon’s parentage a secret) by simply keeping his silence and squelching any talk about it.

He told Robert because, above everyone else, Robert MUST NOT discover the truth of Jon's parentage. No matter what. It would likely mean Jon's life (and worse). The silent treatment doesn't always work when you're questioned by the King.

I think it makes perfect sense that he didn’t tell Cat the Wylla story, and furthermore, an indication that Wylla is not Jon’s mother.

"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive."

- Lord Eddard Stark ;)

But Ned was already telling lies and more lies. For fourteen years he's been constantly lying to Jon and Cat and all the Starks and the rest of Westeros. Just like Wylla has been lying, as have the rest of the Daynes no doubt. So if he would have told Cat the Wylla stroy it would have ended there, but he continued to hurt her and Jon because he didn't want to tell a couple of more lies even though he was living a lie and repeating them for over fourteen years. Doesn't make one bit of sense, especially since he already told the story to the man who was the most dangerous of all.

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But Ned was already telling lies and more lies. For fourteen years he's been constantly lying to Jon and Cat and all the Starks and the rest of Westeros. Just like Wylla has been lying, as have the rest of the Daynes no doubt. So if he would have told Cat the Wylla stroy it would have ended there, but he continued to hurt her and Jon because he didn't want to tell a couple of more lies even though he was living a lie and repeating them for over fourteen years. Doesn't make one bit of sense, especially since he already told the story to the man who was the most dangerous of all.

"Constantly lying" in the sense that he is living a lie? Yes, by claiming Jon as his son. Telling lies and more lies? No, not actively. He’s mostly silent on the specifics of the issue, right? It's possible he often sidesteps it altogether ("He's my blood...") to keep from out-right lying even more.

I don’t think it would have ended there had he told Cat (and Jon). The follow-up questions would’ve led to more and more (active) lies and I think that Ned knew that. Cat might have been comforted and satisfied with “the truthâ€, but would Jon? Wouldn’t he want to know the details? Knowing “the who†might only make him hunger for “the whereâ€, “the whenâ€, “the howâ€, “the whyâ€, etc. In other words, more lies. And, if Jon and Cat knew then who else would come to that knowledge? (the other kids?) And, what questions would they have? A virtual freeway of lies awaits him, imo.

He didn’t continue to hurt her and Jon simply because “he didn’t want to tell a couple more liesâ€. He continued to hurt Cat and Jon because he knew that if the real truth came out that that would almost guarantee Jon’s death – not to mention the possibility of war and the shattering of a longtime friendship with Robert.

As hard as it is, he can lie to his king and friend, and continue to hurt his wife with his silence, but he’ll be damned if he’ll break his blood promise to his sister and initiate the certain death of his nephew.

snake, I can understand how much of this doesn’t make sense to you. If I didn’t believe R+L=J then I doubt any of this would make much sense to me either. ;)

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Greycox,

Ned easily stopped any talk of Ashara. If he had told Cat about Wylla and gave a good reason and then said that was the end of it then there would have been no trouble. The same with Jon. Ned would never talk of his mother, which suggests that Jon asked so if he told Jon the same story he could have left it at that. With doing so he would have saved those two people that he loved a lot of hurt.

maia,

Wylla was talking about Jon to others a long time after Ned had left. If it was a cover story she would have no doubt stuck to it even if she met Jon just as she mentioned it to Edric Dayne, probably when he asked if she ever had a child of her own.

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"And yet there was that one time ... what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was ... Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Meryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."

AGOT 92 Robert and Ned

"He[Jon Snow] is my milk brother."

"Brother?" Arya did not understand. "But you're from Dorne. How could you and Jon be blood?"

"Milk brothers. Not blood. My lady mother had no milk when I was little, so Wylla had to nurse me."

Arya was lost. "Who's Wylla?"

"Jon Snow's mother. He never told you? She's served us for years and years. Since before I was born."

"You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?" Ned answer only the beking of question. Wylla was Asharas servent and Ashara, Ned and Wylla strike a deal that when Ashara and Ned met each other they make everyone believe that Ned and Wylla met. Then Lyanna gave birth to Jon and bie. Ned took Jon and went Starfall to pretender only to return Daynes sword to home. There they make a deal that Wylla masquerade to be Jons mother (meybe Wyllas own child just die if she had milk). Ned knows whom Robert mean so he ansver that name to protect Lyanna and his secret Jon and his, Asharas and Wyllas secret. Ned answer only to question "You know the one I mean" and Robert mean Wylla who are only cover story and milk mother to Jon and Ned Dayne.

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Jon Targaryen--yes, magnificent post.

Mezeh--about Ashara and Wylla: For all we know, Wylla's family may have been serving the Daynes for generations. While I find some of what Edric says to Arya questionable, I think it probably is true that Wylla was Jon's wetnurse. I also think it likely that, if Rhaegar's purpose in all this was to have a third child (I'm thinking that delicate Elia was no longer capable or willing to have kids), surely he'd have a wetnurse on hand in case Lyanna was unable to nurse. Arthur Dayne was one of his close friends; he (or Ashara) could easily have volunteered Wylla. If her family has worked for the Daynes for some time, there'd be trust there. Certainly, if R+L=J, anyone connected to them had to be able to keep a secret.

In addition, if Wylla's family had worked for the Daynes for some time, she may have some of the Dayne look, which is similar to the Targaryen look. It's not unusual for lords and their sons to make sexual use of the servants--at least not in our medieval period. If R+L=baby, there was no way to predict what the child would look like. Rhaegar had the traditional Targ coloring. If Wylla shared the Dayne looks and the baby had the Targaryen coloring, for Wylla to claim to be the mother would explain the child's appearance without bringing the Targaryens into it. IF R+L=J, this obviously didn't matter, since Jon looks like the Starks. But until the child was born, the other possibility had to be considered.

Snake: As for Ned not telling Catelyn and Jon about Wylla--yes, I wonder about that too. On the other hand, if you're essentially living a lie, the less you say about whatever it is you're trying to hide, the less chance there is that you'll slip up, contradict yourself, or give something away. If Wylla is not Jon's mother but is, in fact, a cover story, giving someone the chance to prove that she isn't Jonmom might not be a good idea.

Ned can lie but he hates to do it, especially to Catelyn. ("He's my blood!" is, in a sense, both true and false; Jon IS Ned's blood, but Catelyn probably heard that--as Ned intended--as a claim of paternity). You're right that everyone connected to Jon's birth is lying--or dead. And, as I said above, the fewer details you give, the less chance there is that you'll be caught.

Since Ashara is nobleborn, I think people would have understood why Ned shut down talk of her as Jon's mother. They might have a harder time understanding why he was so concerned with the reputation of a Dornish wetnurse.

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i'm not sure who exactly this is replying to but perhaps the mystery of Jon's parentage is exactly the safeguard Ned required to make sure Jon would eventually find out his true heritage. if Ned told him it was Wylla or Ashara or someone else, maybe Jon would have less of an incentive to find out exactly who his mother was. the mystery invites investigation. a flat lie discourages the knowledge forever, and a straight truth reveals the information too soon. by refusing to give Jon a name, he has given him a reason to find out.

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Interesting perspective, A Hackey. (Every time I see your name I get a mental image of Rhaegar telling Elia, "His will be the HackeySack of Ice and Fire.")

Ned seems to have been strongly behind the "keep Jon's mother a secret" plan during his lifetime. I've thought this was because 1) Lyanna asked him to, or 2) he himself thought it was the safest plan. I do think he was hoping to tell Jon at least something about his heritage when he (in jail) asked Varys to deliver a letter to someone (and Varys said he'd read it first).

You don't think Jon would have believed Ned if Ned told him Jon's mother was Wylla or Ashara? Why would that information keep him from tyring to find his mother? Ashara, of course, is beyond retrieval without a Ouija board if she really did suicide.

If R+L=J, would Ned want Jon to find out his true heritage? I think he would be seen as a threat by whoever sat the Iron Throne even if he is a bastard.

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If R+L=J, would Ned want Jon to find out his true heritage? I think he would be seen as a threat by whoever sat the Iron Throne even if he is a bastard.

My position is that Ned may not want to but that it was one of the promises he made to the Lyanna, specifically the "broken promise" Ned thinks of.

I believe that the "broken promises" will eventually be explained. I do not hold with those that believe they refer to the protection of Jon. Jon has been sworn into the Night's Watch. He cannot marry, inherit, etc, etc. He is no threat to no one. The only other confirmed person who could know of Jon's heritage is essentially a hermit, for whatever reason. Jon is safe. IMO.

So what follows from that, for me, is the broken promise referring to Lyanna making Ned promise to tell Jon of his heritage. Hence Ned wanting to write a letter; hence Ned trying to communicate something about Jon to Bran and Rickon.

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