Is short fiction (in SFF) relevant?

[Zach H]

Purely in terms of my own selfish outlook, I admit that I consider short fiction less relevant. I still pick up some anthologies ever now and then, and I peruse venues like Clarkesworld, Strange Horizons, and Fantasy Magazine fairly regularly, but I wouldn't be sweating it very much if I found out my short fiction access was cut. Especially with the whole surrealist take, short fiction (by its nature) tends to be more idea-driven than something that stresses an extensive degree of characterization and setting that in turn brings a level of "lived-in tangibility" to go along with the ideas. I like fiction best when I feel it's something I can really "invest" in. Short fiction, on the hand, is more a brief flavor that may taste good, but all too often leaves me wanting more than what I got.

[Pug]

[quote name='Eponine R' post='1478585' date='Aug 13 2008, 13.47']Where are good places to get short stories online (not podcasts)? I don't mind reading online, but am not usually willing to search for short stories unless I know exactly what I'm looking for.

I like short stories a lot, but have trouble finding them and identifying which are worth buying. With full length books, it's easy to get reviews and opinions, but there are almost never reviews or any kind of real discussion for short stories.[/quote]

Some good markets for free short stories online include the following:

[url="http://www.subterraneanpress.com/magazine"]Subterranean[/url]
[url="http://www.strangehorizons.com/index.shtml"]Strange Horizons[/url]
[url="http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/"]Clarkesworld[/url]
[url="http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/"]Fantasy Magazine[/url]
[url="http://www.apexbookcompany.com/apex-online/"]Apex Digest[/url]
[url="http://literary.erictmarin.com/current.htm"]Lone Star Stories[/url]
[url="http://www.chizine.com/"]Chiaroscuro[/url]
[url="http://www.helixsf.com/"]Helix[/url]
[url="http://transcriptase.org/"]Transciptase[/url]

If you're willing to pay a little bit, there are
[url="http://baens-universe.com/"]Baen's Universe[/url]
[url="http://www.intergalacticmedicineshow.com/"]Intergalactic Medicine Show[/url]


Not every story will be great or what you want, but then again, neither is every novel and it takes a whole lot less time to read a story.

For the reviews, someone mentioned [url="http://thefix-online.com/"]The Fix[/url], which is probably the largest short fiction review market I'm aware of. Otherwise, the [url="http://www.irosf.com/"]Internet Review of Science Fiction[/url] has a monthly (I think) short fiction review column.

[cteresa]

[quote name='Calibandar' post='1478938' date='Aug 13 2008, 22.13']I tend to think of what I find worthwhile and then recommend that,[/quote]

with luck there will be volunteers like I to inform you and others on the existence of authors like Connie Willis and Kelly Link (and Bear and the others ) which are pretty important for the genre right now. Though anybody who keeps an eye on awards given and reads sf will have heard of them, so obviously some award jury members do think their short fiction worthwhile.

About short fiction, one big difference with regard to novels is that it is harder to pull some stereotype and make it good. Short stories on principle need an idea or a twist or a concept. And that makes it so worthwhile in modern sf/fantasy writing. I seriously miss the ideas, the what-ifs. But that is a personal taste, I am finding specially a lot of current fantasy writing to make me feel claustrophobic in its looking back to the past and small universes.

One more rec, just mentioned previously but deserving of a full mention

Rhys Hughes - who does not write the sort of things I love, but who writes what he writes so well, I love it anyway. Has a bunch of anthologies published, which are impossible to find at reasonable prices.

Actually back to one more point, RH is one case I will go out and read his short stories in an electronic format if that is all I can find. But I sort of hate reading fiction on anything but a real book ( ok, magazine at a pinch will do), and those very nice links you guys put I bookmark, but I am not sure I will ever take the plunge to actually go out and read by an author I have not read before. The distinction is very important, I am far more likely to take the plunge to read a story by an author whose work I have read something before ( and did not totally hate) than by an unknown even if his/her reputation is great. So the value of those nice paperprinted anthologies, filled with new authors to try printed on paper, whose names I might later remember.

[Calibandar]

Teresa/Eloisa

[quote]with luck there will be volunteers like I to inform you and others on the existence of authors like Connie Willis and Kelly Link (and Bear and the others ) which are pretty important for the genre right now.[/quote]

But I have read Kelly Link and didn't like her extremely surreal and bizarre stories at all. I didn't like Connie Willis either, and she writes mainly about female characters, which I generally don't care for. Elizabeth Bear, I have sampled her new faerie series and found it very overwritten, lots of details about things I needed no details about, way too much mythology thrown in as well in the sense that it is just so much that it all becomes unintelligible.

So, it's not that I haven't read them, I just don't think they're as good. It's all about taste, and we shouldn't expect people to post recommendations that are politically correct. I see plenty of women plug female authors and I may think of that what I will, but it doesn't mean I should actually address them and tell them they should include writers I like as well ;)

[cteresa]

[quote name='Calibandar' post='1479567' date='Aug 14 2008, 12.20']So, it's not that I haven't read them, I just don't think they're as good. It's all about taste,[/quote]

Yes, everybody who is around for long enough knows the quirks of your taste. Which is of course important to put your comments about who should be awarded prizes, or your recommendations in context. If you like what you like, nobody will barge into your brain to put anything there. But when you are attempting to pass recommendations to others, yeah, your bias is disturbing and should have a disclaimer. a warning to others.

BTW about the mention of editors, Ellen Datlow and Terri Windling are pretty important editors of anthologies. They are also you know *women* so that figures why Calibandar did not recommend them. But the anthologies they edit are often important.

[Ran]

I think it's an unreasonable position, cteresa. I don't think anyone needs to put a disclaimer about their tastes. When they say, "Here's a list of short story writers I enjoy", there needs to be no more disclaimer or qualification than that.

Yes, Calibandar is rather biased towards male authors. Whatever, yeah? Mileage varies.

[cteresa]

[quote name='Ran' post='1479579' date='Aug 14 2008, 12.48']Yes, Calibandar is rather biased towards male authors. Whatever, yeah? Mileage varies.[/quote]

Sure. I am not saying he has to point it out himself. But I am free to point that out so innocent bystanders can have the extra information to decide for themselves.

And trust me, guys not taking seriously stuff written or done or said by women because they are women and can´t understand tech or write good sf or whatever is not news at all. Hence all the women which go by initials only when publishing sf/fantasy though the current market forces seem to be changing that a bit.

[Mr. X]

I love short fiction personally. It has always been my preferred way to get to know an author, and frequently is the way I find new authors (although I do tend to find more directly through novels thanks to this board and going to conventions). The annual [i]Best of SF[/i] collections are always worth checking out. Four somewhat recent collections that I'll add another vote for are Paolo Bacigalupi's [i]Pump Six and Other Stories[/i], Margo Lanagan's [i]Black Juice[/i] and [i]White Time[/i], and Joe Hill's [i]20th Century Ghosts[/i].

Some people I associate almost exclusively in short fiction, like Howard Waldrop, whose collection [i]Things Will Never Be The Same[/i] is delightful.

Some writers who are primarily novelists can still turn out good shorts, as Tim Powers' collection [i]Strange Interludes[/i] shows.

And then there are other writers whose writing works better for me in short form, such as Cory Doctorow.

(Oh, and I absolutely love Roger Zelazny's short fiction.)

[MattD]

[quote name='cteresa' post='1478916' date='Aug 13 2008, 17.08']Matt, thanks noted down! if older authors can count, I am very fond of John M Ford´s two collections. I loved some of Peter Beagle´s short stories I have read. I read one Theodora Goss short story in a Year´s Best (I think) but it did not hook me particularly, I hardly remember it unfortunately besides the author´s name. deNIro, thanks noted down.[/quote]
Hmm, [url="http://www.goblinmercantileexchange.com/?page_id=601"]try before you buy[/url] with De Niro because if you don't like Link, you may find his quirky, pomo style similarly not your thing.

If you read a Goss story in a Year's Best anthology it was probably "Pip and the Fairies" -- I love that story, but it is something that can be read as not fantastic at all. I find Goss at her best to have the lyrical prose qualities and use of the unsaid of McKillip. If you look at the [url="http://www.theodoragoss.com/writing.html"]writings she has online[/url], give "The Rose in Twelve Petals" and "The Rapid Advance of Sorrow" a chance, both are more overtly fantastical.

Beagle has a number of good short fiction collections out...[i]The Rhinoceros Who Quoted Nietzsche[/i], [i]The Line Between[/i], and (if you liked his novel [i]The Innkeeper's Song[/i]) [i]Giant Bones[/i].

(ETA: fixed book title)

[Calibandar]

[quote]I love short fiction personally. It has always been my preferred way to get to know an author, and frequently is the way I find new authors (although I do tend to find more directly through novels thanks to this board and going to conventions). The annual Best of SF collections are always worth checking out. Four somewhat recent collections that I'll add another vote for are Paolo Bacigalupi's Pump Six and Other Stories, Margo Lanagan's Black Juice and White Time, and Joe Hill's 20th Century Ghosts.

Some people I associate almost exclusively in short fiction, like Howard Waldrop, whose collection Things Will Never Be The Same is delightful.

Some writers who are primarily novelists can still turn out good shorts, as Tim Powers' collection Strange Interludes shows.

And then there are other writers whose writing works better for me in short form, such as Cory Doctorow.

(Oh, and I absolutely love Roger Zelazny's short fiction.)[/quote]

Teresa, [b]alert, alert[/b], there is only female author mentioned in this post and that does not meet your feminist quotum. Please provide us with a highly necessary counterbalance so that we have an equal amount of women named once again. The idea that unknown victims are reading this thread and end up reading more male short story authors than female is horrifying.

Anyway, generally speaking, I find that short stories have clear up and downsides. The upside is that short stories can be a great way to get to know an author and by reading these samples you may know if you want to read something novel size. They can also have great ides, ideas that when carried over the whole length of a novel become worn out, but which are great in a short story.

The downside is that short stories, like novels, can sometimes be fascinating and just when you are starting to immerse yourself in them, they're over. This is probably the main reason why so few people read short stories.

[cteresa]

[quote name='MattD' post='1479626' date='Aug 14 2008, 13.44']Hmm, [url="http://www.goblinmercantileexchange.com/?page_id=601"]try before you buy[/url] with De Niro because if you don't like Link, you may find his quirky, pomo style similarly not your thing.[/quote]


Like I said, actually reading online, it has to be something I really want to read, which means an author I already know. And there is a vicious cycle around, online short stories are a great way to discover new authors, but since I totally prefer to read on print, I depend on printed anthologies to discover new authors even if afterwards I might go hunt online for versions of their stories. Thanks for the warning about deNiro - Kelly Link just does not click for me ( though weirdly Hughes does, and he should not, for the same reasons). I guess I will hope to find some of his stories printed in some anthology and check it out.

[quote name='MattD' post='1479626' date='Aug 14 2008, 13.44']If you read a Goss story in a Year's Best anthology it was probably "Pip and the Fairies" -- I love that story, but it is something that can be read as not fantastic at all. I find Goss at her best to have the lyrical prose qualities and use of the unsaid of McKillip. If you look at the [url="http://www.theodoragoss.com/writing.html"]writings she has online[/url], give "The Rose in Twelve Petals" and "The Rapid Advance of Sorrow" a chance, both are more overtly fantastical.[/quote]
Thanks for the the tip, I will keep in mind. A quibble, i checked and the one Goss story i read was on [url="http://kathryncramer.typepad.com/kathryn_cramer/2005/03/years_best_fant.html"]Year´s Best Fantasy 5[/url], [u]Miss Emily Gray [/u], a sort of Susanna Clarke like short story, almost a murder mystery type bordering on horror. It was interesting, but it seemed a bit coy, a bit too victorian pastiche to me ( I do not actually *like* Clarke). But not bad, just not something which hooked me. BTW on that anthology somewhat surprisingly ( because I have not read nearly enough of his stories!) the one story I ended up loving totally was Peter Beagle´s. And Tanith Lee is always good for atmosphere.

[quote name='MattD' post='1479626' date='Aug 14 2008, 13.44']Beagle has a number of good short fiction collections out...[i]he Rhinoceros Who Quoted Nietzsche[/i], [i]The Line Between[/i], and (if you liked his novel [i]The Innkeepers Song[/i]) [i]Giant Bones[/i].[/quote]

eheh, perfect rec, a full hit, I am looking for more Beagle based on that short story on Years Best I just told you about...

Calibandar, I do not think that reading 50-50 gender balance or recommending is any requirement for anything. I hate quotas and "positive discrimination". A good story is a good story. But what are the odds of somebody purely by accident, without any bias or prejudice, name a dozen or two dozen current short story writers and editors and they all be male. Dunno. But worth thinking about.

PS - edited to fix the edit to try to fix a broken link. I never remember those buttons and always try to extrapolate from html, sigh...

[cteresa]

More 2 cents of opinions - about short stories being short, I don´t really have a problem with them stopping instead of a long long long full imersion experience for a long time. But I don´t particularly like the extra long extra slow type of epic fantasy novels ( well, I like them if they are good, but not because of that, it´s despite that). But I notice I am stumped for time to actually read everything I want to read, my tastes are greedy , so actually trying an idea, a setting, an author investing half an hour ( and getting it as a "freebie" in an anthology) looks pretty good for me :thumbsup: I am getting pickier with time, and learning to just give up books at page 50 or 100 or 200 if I am disliking the writing or the book is failing to interest me . Short stories usually survive my "life is too short" impulses much better. Plus like I already mentioned, I got special requirements for my handbag book, I like particularly short stories to read on public transportation.

Another question, can anybody think of books, stories, arcs written in short stories? with a filling out or not. I can think of [i]Tuf Voyaging[/i], and I suppose the Dunc and Egg stories might one day fit that mould. [i]The Majipoor Chronicles[/i] also and maybe [i]The Fifth Head of Cerberus[/i]? Any more? I actually liked all of these very much!

[Mr. X]

[quote name='cteresa' post='1479685' date='Aug 14 2008, 09.41']Another question, can anybody think of books, stories, arcs written in short stories?[/quote]
Many of the [i]Wild Cards[/i] books fit this category.

And Tim O'Brien's [i]The Things They Carried[/i] certainly works in that way, although it isn't fantasy or SF.

[cteresa]

Wild cards, we need an icon for slaping one own´s head, how could I forget that? I actually read some 7 or 8 of those ( and Zelazny does indeed write a great story!). Thanks!

Going off genre, I can remember another book which is some shorts put together by Alice Hoffman, with the same characters, pleasant enough book though nothing awe inducing. And I think I have read a few novels which I think would have made better as a series of short stories, the action feeling "jerky" and not like a complete whole. And there are of course novels I really wish had been just one short story - stories which feel overflowing, grossly done for the structure they have.

[MattD]

[quote name='cteresa' post='1479685' date='Aug 14 2008, 09.41']Another question, can anybody think of books, stories, arcs written in short stories? with a filling out or not. I can think of [i]Tuf Voyaging[/i], and I suppose the Dunc and Egg stories might one day fit that mould. [i]The Majipoor Chronicles[/i] also and maybe [i]The Fifth Head of Cerberus[/i]? Any more? I actually liked all of these very much![/quote]
The critical term for short stories assembled and filled out to become novels is "fix-up", and there is a list of many of them [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fix-up"]here[/url]. Although, that list hasn't been updated in some time and is missing some obvious ones -- for example, since you said you enjoy Zelazny's stories, have you read his [i]Dilvish the Damned[/i] or [i]My Name is Legion[/i]?

There are also "story suites" or "mosaic novels," sets of original short stories which were written to be published together because they deal with the same settings and/or themes. Ursula Le Guin has written several -- [i]Four Ways to Forgiveness[/i] comes to mind -- and Zoran Zivkovic is probably the most well-known current practitioner of the form; [i]Seven Touches of Music[/i] is a good place to enter his work.

[Mr. X]

[quote name='MattD' post='1480163' date='Aug 14 2008, 13.44']The critical term for short stories assembled and filled out to become novels is "fix-up", and there is a list of many of them [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fix-up"]here[/url].[/quote]
Interesting. I was not aware of that. Thanks for the info and link. :)

[Stego]

[quote name='Ran' post='1478422' date='Aug 13 2008, 13.51']Yes, it's relevant. Yes, I read it. Yes, Stego doesn't know what he's talking about. ;)[/quote]


Please.

If a short story writer is any good, they'll make a book or be picked up for a collection. If not, they will languish in obscurity. As such, there is no reason to ever read a magazine.

The same can not be said for novels.

Look to the great works of literature, I say. Decide how many are short stories. That should tell you everything you need to know.

[Stego]

And it's funny to me that the fixup wiki does not list Ender's Game.

Oh, well.

[cteresa]

[quote name='MattD' post='1480163' date='Aug 14 2008, 18.44']The critical term for short stories assembled and filled out to become novels is "fix-up", and there is a list of many of them [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fix-up"]here[/url]. Although, that list hasn't been updated in some time and is missing some obvious ones -- for example, since you said you enjoy Zelazny's stories, have you read his [i]Dilvish the Damned[/i] or [i]My Name is Legion[/i]?[/quote]

No, never, noted down for the mental list of one day if I get a chance. And thanks for the info and link it is fascinating. Funny the term comes from van Vogt, one of the very first sf novels I ever read was Mixed Men ( due to translation and incredibly small market, my adolescent reading mixed up all sort of sf ages, since it all got translated at the same time. and for other reasons my reading sort of went chronologically from authorsname from z to a ;) ). But from that list wow, and Dune, ohreally? it´s amazing how many crucial books to sf are on that list, nevermind the importance of some non-reworked shorts.

More than Men, interesting I did not know that, it was one book I could not get into, in a not_trying-too-hard attempt lots of years ago, but some of Sturgeon short stories are incredibly powerful.

A lot of later Anne McCaffrey seem to be actually short stories reworked, maybe a good argument for an author to spend time working those, when you become famous just pad them up and release them as novels.

and Hyperion is not on the list, I just thought of it, I guess it might count as mosaic novel? ;)

[quote name='MattD' post='1480163' date='Aug 14 2008, 18.44']There are also "story suites" or "mosaic novels," sets of original short stories which were written to be published together because they deal with the same settings and/or themes. Ursula Le Guin has written several -- [i]Four Ways to Forgiveness[/i] comes to mind -- and Zoran Zivkovic is probably the most well-known current practitioner of the form; [i]Seven Touches of Music[/i] is a good place to enter his work.[/quote]

The Fifth Head of Cerberus probably fits this category perfectly rather than the fix-up.

[Ran]

Stego,

[quote]If a short story writer is any good, they'll make a book or be picked up for a collection.[/quote]

The question was whether short fiction was relevant, not whether magazines were. ;) So I stand by my position on this. Way too many authors have noted the importance of short fiction in their interest in SF, in their formative experiences as readers and writers of SF, and as a place where they continue to hone their skills.

A great short story writer is as difficult to find as a great novelist.