Character Ages

[Guest Other-in-law]

SFDanny,
Another fine thread (maybe I should check out the reread forum more often)!

Will you be doing more characters? I'm sure there are a great many more who can be pinned down to at least a year or so. I know I've tried to work out Tyrion, Oberyn, and Rhaegar a few times in the past, though the threads that it's come up in have come and gone. It's nice to have this sort of reference all in one convenient thread.

[SFDanny]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1541588' date='Oct 3 2008, 08.38']SFDanny,
Another fine thread (maybe I should check out the reread forum more often)!

Will you be doing more characters? I'm sure there are a great many more who can be pinned down to at least a year or so. I know I've tried to work out Tyrion, Oberyn, and Rhaegar a few times in the past, though the threads that it's come up in have come and gone. It's nice to have this sort of reference all in one convenient thread.[/quote]

Thanks, it's nice to read any appreciation of my mania, especially from thoughtful posters like yourself. And, yes, I will post any new ages I can confirm. Right now, I'm combing [i]ASoS[/i] and [i]AFfC[/i] for any mention of Ser Loras being seventeen after the beginning of Year 300. The "older" generation (Ned, Catelyn, the Twins, Tyrion, etc.) is much more difficult to confirm, but I've tried a number of ways - especially with Ned and the Twins - to try and nail the details down. No luck yet.

Anyone else who wants to contribute to the thread would be greatly appreciated. To be clear to others just checking into this thread for the first time, I'm not so much interested in a list of ages cited in the books, but rather trying to confirm the years name days take place, and in what order name days fall within the years. I believe that can be helpful in constructing a solid timeline, much as Errant Bard has tried to do.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Ah, I don't have much to offer for that. One nameday mention that springs to mind is Tyrion's 23rd, when Jaime gave him his horse that ended up being butchered on the High road. However that really tells us nothing; I'm convinced that Tyrion had turned 23 several years before then so it doesn't even help with the year (let alone month) of his birth.

[SFDanny]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1542453' date='Oct 4 2008, 00.53']Ah, I don't have much to offer for that. One nameday mention that springs to mind is Tyrion's 23rd, when Jaime gave him his horse that ended up being butchered on the High road. However that really tells us nothing; I'm convinced that Tyrion had turned 23 several years before then so it doesn't even help with the year (let alone month) of his birth.[/quote]

Thanks, I know the reference to Tyrion's horse, but, as you say, it tells us very little. It gives us a minimum age and not much more. Now, if we combine this with Ned's age in 298 (35, maybe turning 36,) the difference between Ned's and Jaime's ages at the tourney at Harrenhal (approx. three years,) and the Red Viper's age range for the twins when Tyrion was born (8 or 9,) and it could be possible Tyrion [i]is[/i] 23 in [i]AGoT[/i] (35-3-9=23.) Of course, given the fact I can't tell you for sure if Ned turns 36 in 298, or whether the difference in ages at Harrenhal is really 3 years and not 2-and-a-half, or if The Viper's estimate of eight years old is really the correct age, all of which puts this very much up in the air. The long and short of it is that Tyrion is [i]probably[/i] 23 or 24 in 298. I'm hoping to figure this out a little more precisely than that, but it may have to wait for the next book.

I just had a thought. Remember any reference to how long ago it was the Tyrion last saw Tysha? I know he was 13 when they married, which only lasted a few weeks, but I will have to go back an look for any reference to how long ago those events take place. Could be one more piece of the puzzle. Thanks, as always, OIL, you make me think things over in different ways.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Doran Martell is 52 in the Captain of the Guards, and he was 10 years older than Oberyn according to the same chapter. This is definitely after Tyrion's trial and Joff's wedding, so it's sometime in 300. Therefore Oberyn was roughly 42 and was born about 258 (maybe a margin of error of a year).

By his own account, Oberyn was around 14 or 15 when Tyrion was born, so maybe 272 or 273. That puts Tyrion at 27 or 28 in 300, and 24 or 25 in 298. So his horse was still pretty young, but his 23rd name day shouldn't have been just a few months before...it may have been 2 years.

Not sure about a hard number for the last time Tyrion saw Tysha, but there have been some discussions where it was concluded to be possible that the Sailor's wife's is Tysha and Lanna is their daughter. Unfortunately the Braavos appendix fell out of my cheap perfect bound copy of aFfC, so I can't verify her age.

ETA: From [i]the Captain of the Guards[/i], in aFfC:
[i]"The prince turned his chair laboriously to face her. [b]Though he was but two and fifty[/b], Doran Martell seemed much older."[/i]

[i]"Your father played that same game once, as I did before him," said the prince. "[b]We had ten years between us[/b], so I had left the pools by the time he was old enough to play, but I would watch him when I came to visit mother. He was so fierce, even as a boy."[/i]

[i]"I was the oldest," the prince said, "and yet i am the last. After Mors and Olyvar died in their cradles, I gave up hope of brothers. [b]I was nine when Elia came[/b], a squire in service at Salt Shore. When the raven arrived with word that my mother had been brought to bed a month too soon, I was old enough to understand that meant the child would not live. Even when Lord Gargalen told me that I had a sister, I assured him that she must shortly die. Yet she lived, by the Mother's mercy. [b]And a year later Oberyn arrived[/b], squalling and kicking. I was a man grown when they were playing in these pools. yet here I sit and they are gone."[/i]

From aSoS (p 433 in my edition):
[i]"It was when I visited Casterly Rock with my mother, her consort, and my sister Elia. [b]I was, oh, fourteen, fifteen, thereabouts, Elia a year older. Your brother and sister were eight or nine, as I recall, and you had just been born[/b]."[/i]

(all emphases mine)

[Errant Bard]

Lanna is 14 in Cat of the canals. If it happens like I speculated around March 301, then Lanna was likely born late in 286, making her conception happen late in 285, or in the first semester of 286. Tyrion was 14 when he wed Tysha, so was Tysha. If ([u]if[/u]) the Sailor's wife is Tysha, then she was born (probably early) in 271, and so was Tyrion.

[i]Yna was there too, braiding Lanna's fine long golden hair. Another stupid love song. Lanna was always begging the singer to play her stupid love songs. She was the youngest of the whores, only [b]ten-and-four[/b]. Merry asked three times as much for her as for any of the other girls, Cat knew.[/i]

Edit: As I remember, the Tysha=sailor's wife had always a problem of one year to make it synch, but can't remember the specifics.

No need to obsess overly much, I think GRRM doesn't really have all the dates down pat and all synchro with each others.

ETA: to add earliest and latest dates we can get from this:
If Lanna was premature, had her birthday the day before [i]Cat of the Canals[/i], and Tyrion had just turned 14 when he met Tysha, that puts Tyrion's birthday upper limit at July 14 272
If Lanna was just shy of one day to be 15 in Cat of the Canals, and if Tyrion was also almost 15 back then, then the lower limit is june 6 270

[SFDanny]

[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1542485' date='Oct 4 2008, 04.21']Tyrion was 14 when he wed Tysha, so was Tysha. If ([u]if[/u]) the Sailor's wife is Tysha, then she was born (probably early) in 271, and so was Tyrion.[/quote]

I have Tyrion as 13 when he wed Tysha and her a year older, based on, among others, these quotes:
[quote name='A Game of Thrones']"She was scarcely a year older than I was, dark-haired, slender, with a face that would break your heart."
and,
"I was only thirteen, and the wine went to my head, I fear." ([i]AGoT[/i] 382 US Hardback[/quote]

Still no reference yet to how long ago this took place. I'll keep looking.

[Guest Other-in-law]

By the way, would you prefer the exact quotes for any evidence offered? I can give the sections for Doran's age and Oberyn's age relative to Tyrion's easily enough.

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='SFDanny' post='1542917' date='Oct 5 2008, 02.33']I have Tyrion as 13 when he wed Tysha and her a year older, based on, among others, these quotes:[/quote]Right, add one year to my dates. 272 most probable year then I guess. Sounds like it fits with the rest.

[SFDanny]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1542921' date='Oct 4 2008, 19.40']By the way, would you prefer the exact quotes for any evidence offered? I can give the sections for Doran's age and Oberyn's age relative to Tyrion's easily enough.[/quote]

I think it would be good to give a page reference along with at least a discription of the important sections in question. Exact quotes certainly work as well. I know the references you're using, but it is good for any others who might be interested in helping figure this out to have it all laid out. Thanks.

E.B. cool. I need to set down and go over all of these together and see if I can sort out what all the options are. I'm still looking for that reference to how long ago Tryion's "severe lesson" takes place, so if anyone runs across one please post it.

I've figured out one new age. Not the most interesting one, for sure, but it helps sort out more of the picture:

[b]Lord Walder Frey[/b]

When Catelyn takes Tyrion hostage the Frey knights speak of Lord Walder planning to wed again when he turns 90 ([i]AGoT[/i] 245.) This is within the known 298 timeframe because Yoren is with Tyrion on his way to King's Landing (see [url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=31414&view=findpost&p=1539551"]Margaery's[/url] and [url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=31414&view=findpost&p=1539552"]Jon's[/url] entries above.) Because we know Lord Frey is 89 in year 298 we have two options:

[indent]{a} Lord Frey is 88 turning 89 in 298, 89 turning 90 in 299, 90 turning 91 in 300, or
{b} Lord Frey is 89 turning 90 in 298, 90 turning 91 in 299, and 91 turning 92 in 300. [/indent]

When Catelyn and Edmure talk about Lord Frey not meeting them when they reach the Twins right before the Red Wedding, Catelyn remarks on Edmure seeing how he likes riding in the rain when he is 91 ([i]ASoS[/i] 558.)

[b]Therefore because Lord Walder Frey turns 91 before the Red Wedding, a known event in Year 299, option b is the only choice, and he has to have been born in Year 208.[/b]

Because he is still 89 when Catelyn takes Tyrion prisoner, and we know this event takes place after the welcoming feast in Winterfell, we know his name day falls after Ayra, Rickon, Joffrey, and Tommen. Also because Lord Walder turns 90 after Catelyn’s meeting with Tyrion and Yoren at the Crossroads Inn, and these two leave the Wall after Jon’s 15th name day in 298, Lord Frey’s name day has to come after Myrcella’s, Robb’s, Bran’s, Daenery’s, and Jon’s. His name day could take place much later than that in the year, but I have to look to see if I can find more markers to place it any more precisely than that.

[Guest Other-in-law]

OK, added the quotes to my earlier post. Another rather complicated connection of ages and dates had to do with Renly's birth and Elia and Rhaegar's marriage. Renly must have been born a year or so before Lord Steffon and Lady Cassana died, which in turn would have been before Rhaegar got married, since they were looking for a bride for him in the Free cities. That, in turn, helps set the upward limit for Princess Rhaenys' age. At the same time, there may be an exact age for Renly somewhere. I'll dig for quotes later.

[SFDanny]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1543246' date='Oct 5 2008, 10.42']OK, added the quotes to my earlier post. Another rather complicated connection of ages and dates had to do with Renly's birth and Elia and Rhaegar's marriage. Renly must have been born a year or so before Lord Steffon and Lady Cassana died, which in turn would have been before Rhaegar got married, since they were looking for a bride for him in the Free cities. That, in turn, helps set the upward limit for Princess Rhaenys' age. At the same time, there may be an exact age for Renly somewhere. I'll dig for quotes later.[/quote]

Great! Thanks for all the help.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Found an age for Renly (there may be a somewhat contradictory one somewhere else though, iirc), from the prologue to aCoK:
[i]"The bold little boy with wild black hair and laughing eyes was a man grown now, [b]one and twenty[/b], and still he played his games."[/i]

Shortly after we get Stannis' age:
"Hard [i]was the word men used when they spoke of Stannis, and hard he was. Though he was [b]not yet five and thirty[/b], only a fringe of thin, black hair remained on his head, circling behind his ears like the shadow of a crown."[/i]
So Renly should have been born about 278, and Stannis possibly late 264 or 265, taking 299 as the date of the prologue from EB's thread. There may be more mention of Stannis' age elsewhere that might help give a range for his birthday.

[Joanna vander Poele]

Lanna = Lannister.

It's canon! :uhoh:

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='Joanna Nox' post='1543329' date='Oct 5 2008, 19.47']Lanna = Lannister.

It's canon! :uhoh:[/quote]Well, that may be a hint, or it may be a coincidence. However on my reread (for the timeline) I couldn't help but notice that one of Robert's daughter was named Barra in reference to Baratheon, and that in AFFC Cersei complains that half the realm bugs her to call their daughter Lanna (and their son Tywin).

Anyway, why do you think the Tysha=Sailor's wife theory was created first? It's because of the name, and Lanna's hair colour (and a Tyrion obsession) :P

Still, even if she is a Lannister, she could very well be Gerion's daughter, because he was a sailor. Talking about that, do we have the date Gerion left to find Brightroar? If I recall Joy Hill is his daughter, and is nine during the last Jaime chapter of AFFC.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1543364' date='Oct 5 2008, 14.34']Still, even if she is a Lannister, she could very well be Gerion's daughter, because he was a sailor. Talking about that, do we have the date Gerion left to find Brightroar? If I recall Joy Hill is his daughter, and is nine during the last Jaime chapter of AFFC.[/quote]
[i]"The old kings of the Rock had owned such a weapon, but the greatsword Brightroar had been lost when the second King Tommen carried it back to Valyria on his fool's quest. He had never returned, nor had Uncle gery, the youngest and most reckless of his father's brothers, who had gone seeking after the lost sword [b]some eight years past[/b]."[/i]

I have to say, Tyrion is the better candidate than Gerion for Lanna's father. Gerion would have had to have fathered Lanna a few years before leaving for Valyria, which would be the logical time for him to have been 'lost at sea'. He wouldn't really have been 'lost' he would have just returned home to Westeros for a few years. Of course, Tyrion was never really lost at sea either (nor was he a sailor), so that whole tale seems to be a fabrication, but the years match tyrion better, as do the Sailor's Wife's matrimonial scars.

[Fireball07]

I'm pretty sure Tyrion is around 32 or 33. I think I worked it out before, but forgot my evidence. And I don't have AGot anymore, so I can't check it.

Good work, SF Danny.

I also might check the re-read forum more often.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='Firebll07' post='1551687' date='Oct 10 2008, 18.03']I'm pretty sure Tyrion is around 32 or 33. I think I worked it out before, but forgot my evidence. And I don't have AGot anymore, so I can't check it.[/quote]
Then it sounds like you're not so sure after all. The rest of us have laid out our evidence that points to him having been born around 272, making him 28 by the aFfC...you're welcome to disprove that, but it will take more than vague memories to convince anyone.

[Lady Blackfish]

Tyrion is not 32-33; Jaime is 8-9 years older than Tyrion, and he is 2-3 years younger than Ned, so when Ned is 35 Tyrion is at most 25, give or take.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='Lady Blackfish' post='1551722' date='Oct 10 2008, 18.27']Tyrion is not 32-33; Jaime is 8-9 years older than Tyrion, and he is 2-3 years younger than Ned, so when Ned is 35 Tyrion is at most 25.[/quote]
As of aGoT, I take it? The 3 or so years of the series come into play for the surviving characters.