Character Ages

[Ran]

Well, but these aren't errors, and in fact his typical explanation for when a possible error is found is to look first to see if he can explain it away as an ambiguity -- "So and so is old, they don't remember everything straight" and so on, instead of coming up with a concrete solution to the problem ("Ah, but that was a leap year, you see, so there was an extra day...")

I know, as I'm one of those people who works with George and spots these things. ;)

[Kevin_Lannister]

Very true Ran like he did with what I mentioned. Thats another thing I like about him as an author and maybe its just me but, I like everything not being explained to a science, not all things mesaured, (that probaly falls more under travel and time then age but oh well). But Its very impressive what the people on this thread deduced about there ages. I never would have been able to come up with these conclusions, its very interesting....

Props to EB, Lady Blackfish, SF Dany, and OiL, good work
Props to Ran if you really did help George with these similiar topics (which with your work on here and the WB, I dont doubt)

[DocBean]

ok, so can someone please list all the main character's ages at the beginning, and where we are now?

Ned
Cat
Robb
Jon
Sansa
Arya
Brann
Rickon
Littlefinger
Tyrion
Jaime
Cersei
Joffrey
Tommen
Mycella
Sweetrobin
Robert
Renly
Stannis
Jojen
Meera
Old Nan
Gendry
Edric
Hotpie.....

and so on?
good luck

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='DocBean' post='1594324' date='Nov 19 2008, 20.55']ok, so can someone please list all the main character's ages at the beginning, and where we are now?[/quote]That's the point of this thread, maybe you can try reading it, and use the timeline thread to place their birthday in relation to other events.

[DocBean]

[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1594353' date='Nov 19 2008, 14.19']That's the point of this thread, maybe you can try reading it, and use the timeline thread to place their birthday in relation to other events.[/quote]

maybe you can try not being such a dick.
I'm saying without all the explanation.
That way a person to look up a specific character without flipping thru pages of posts.

I was looking for Tyrion's age and couldn't find it for 15 minutes.
I found tons of speculation on why he might be 24 or 25 at the beginning of the story, but I was hoping someone could clarify it all and say
[i]here are the definites, and here are the possibilities,[/i] on the ones we aren't sure on....

Game of Thrones: Year ____
list of names and Ages or possible age range.

End of Feast for Crows: Year ____
list of names and possible Age range.

or simply putting on the first page [i]Here are the years everyone was born. Here is the timeframe of each book...[/i]
it would be nice if the creator of this thread would put it all on the first page, but he didn't, and also didn't list what year we are in now.
or if he did, I couldn't find it.

I'm asking if someone is willing to take the time and list them all.
I couldn't find them on Wikipedia either.

[Prince of the North]

Having a listing as DocBean suggests would be BEYOND INTEGRAL when it comes to trying to cast the upcoming HBO pilot/series.

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='DocBean' post='1595213' date='Nov 20 2008, 16.54']maybe you can try not being such a dick.[/quote]I'm sorry, you sound like one yourself, when you ask: "Hey folks I want that humongous list filled, and I won't even do the obvious ones mentioned in the thread myself as you should do all the time-consuming legwork, good luck"

for the wiki, you have: [url="http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Years_after_Aegon%27s_Landing"]http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Years...gon%27s_Landing[/url]
for the timeframe of each books you have: [url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=31411"]http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=31411[/url] ("Year we are now" is rather nebulous, as AFFC more or less spans from december 299 to march 301, but most PoV chapters end their narration in 300, and the ADWD ones will probably go back in time, so to speak, to the beginning of 300, and probably go past 301 as Arya has chapters (though they could be chapters happening before her blindness of course))

There are no definites anyway, only speculations depending on when a chapter takes place and when a birthday itself took place relative to that chapter. Maybe you don't realize, but if you look at this thread, the number of characters examined, and the date of the posts, crosschecking and putting ages ranges is not quick, and your list... is frankly scary. Maybe SFDanny could do it but I can't imagine how much time it would take her.

So yeah, you have the same books and threads as anyone else, there is no reason you cannot do your part if you want it. Good luck.

ETA: Telling you some answers are in the thread is "being a dick"? Good grief. Are you that used to always get everything without putting forth any effort of your own that the mere suggestion of helping people you ask a favour of has to be labelled "being a dick"?

[SFDanny]

[quote name='DocBean' post='1595213' date='Nov 20 2008, 11.54']maybe you can try not being such a dick.
I'm saying without all the explanation.
That way a person to look up a specific character without flipping thru pages of posts.

I was looking for Tyrion's age and couldn't find it for 15 minutes.
I found tons of speculation on why he might be 24 or 25 at the beginning of the story, but I was hoping someone could clarify it all and say
[i]here are the definites, and here are the possibilities,[/i] on the ones we aren't sure on....

Game of Thrones: Year ____
list of names and Ages or possible age range.

End of Feast for Crows: Year ____
list of names and possible Age range.

or simply putting on the first page [i]Here are the years everyone was born. Here is the timeframe of each book...[/i]
it would be nice if the creator of this thread would put it all on the first page, but he didn't, and also didn't list what year we are in now.
or if he did, I couldn't find it.

I'm asking if someone is willing to take the time and list them all.
I couldn't find them on Wikipedia either.[/quote]

I put on the [url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=31414&view=findpost&p=1539546"]first page[/url] all the ages of characters of which I believe we can be certain. The purpose of the thread was to get people to contribute to an effort to sort through the mass of information in the books and help come up with the hard evidence to make such judgements, and then use this information to help in the broader task of creating a reliable timeline - an effort that I'm please to say some others have contributed to in a great way. It wasn't to list every age that occurs in the book. That has been done already in numerous threads such as the ones [url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=31414&view=findpost&p=1552343"]JT[/url] and [url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=31414&view=findpost&p=1596090"]EB[/url] have linked to. I don't have a problem with such listings, but they tell us very little - as I explained in my original post. I have thought that it might be of use to anyone willing to do some work on this topic to list not only what ages are in the books but also [u]where[/u] their mention occurs, but it's something I haven't had time to organize as of yet. If I do, I will post it on in the OP.

To your other questions, as EB has noted, the years each book covers is open to debate. Most of [i]A Game of Thrones[/i] takes place in Year 298, but some of it likely takes places in early 299, and some of it (the prologue and the first Daenerys chapter) could be in 297. The next two books take place mostly in Year 299, but anything on or after the day of Joffrey's death takes place in Year 300. Which leaves us with most of [i]A Feast for Crows[/i] taking place in Year 300 (some of the early Greyjoy chapters and the prologue likely take place in 299) and EB argues for the Arya chapters continuing into Year 301. There is much more information and more discussion of this aspect of your questions in [url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=31411"]EB's timeline thread[/url] - which I highly recommend.

With Tyrion's age, it is a subject of much debate. I've tried to put my thinking in the posts [url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=31414&view=findpost&p=1552841"]above[/url] about the Lannisters. I think the evidence points to him being born in either Year 273 or 274 - making him somewhere between 24 and 26 in AGoT. Without more information I don't think I can be more specific. I hope this helps.

Two side notes: I've always found calling people names never helps when asking them to do something for you. Not to be a dick about it. ;)
And EB, just to set the record straight, I'm a he not a she. Not that that matters any in these arcane debates. I know the "SFDanny" confuses some who link it to Dany. The two Ns in name aren't an accident, but rather just an example of stupidity on my part in not thinking what others would assume because of the closeness of my given name to the character's.

[The Garlic Knight]

wow. i've been reading around this board for over a year before i just started posting. i always thought sfdanny was a girl. i think the picture avatar thing had something to do with that or maybe it was just the way the posts are worded. good thread though. good to know the ages of the pov characters. i think that will be very important if hbo starts filming to know what ages they need to cast people as. i do not think they would stick to it though because they will want to show sex and stuff and so many characters get the sex before they are old enough to be sexed on tv.

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='SFDanny' post='1600188' date='Nov 25 2008, 20.27']And EB, just to set the record straight, I'm a he not a she.[/quote]I stand corrected, sorry for that :)

[SFDanny]

Concerning Jon's age relative to Robb's, I was reading, perhaps for the tenth time or more, the section of [i]A Game of Thrones[/i] where Robert and Ned ride out to barrows of the First Men on their trip south from Winterfell. Usually, I look at this section because this is where Ned actually tells someone - Robert - that Wylla is Jon's mother, but this time it struck me what is probably obvious to everyone else, that in Ned's comments is the confirmation of Catelyn's view that Jon was conceived AFTER Robb. This is the pertinent part of the dialogue:

[quote name='A Game of Thrones']"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."
"Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. Your never told me what she looked like ..."
Ned's mouth tightened in anger. "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."
"God have mercy, you scarcely [i]knew[/i] Catelyn."
[b]"I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child."[/b] (AGoT 92 US Hardback)[/quote]bold emphasis added
So we have GRRM confirming in a later chapter what Catelyn tells us earlier and it becomes very unlikely that this is an error on Martin's part. He wants us to know that the story of Jon's origins is supposed to be in a dalliance Ned has with another woman [i]after[/i] he leaves his new bride pregnant at Riverrun. Unless we presume a premature birth and a very early liaison with Wylla (or whoever is Ned's lover) then Jon HAS to celebrate his name day after Robb.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='SFDanny' post='1652637' date='Jan 17 2009, 17.02']He wants us to know that the story of Jon's origins is supposed to be in a dalliance Ned has with another woman [i]after[/i] he leaves his new bride pregnant at Riverrun. Unless we presume a premature birth and a very early liaison with Wylla (or whoever is Ned's lover) then Jon HAS to celebrate his name day after Robb.[/quote]
On the other hand, we have Harwin claiming the exact opposite, after Ned Dayne tells Arya about his milk-brother Jon:

[i]When Ned met this Dornish lady, [b]his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor[/b]. There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm of that? Spring had come, or so they thought, [b]and neither one of them was pledged[/b]."[/i]

Different mother candidate, earlier conception, and different ramification for Ned's honour. Of course, Harwin admits that he was only Arya's age when the tales came back north, and Harwin would have heard it third hand or worse. There's very conflicting tales going around about just how old Jon is.

Except that the Daynes are also claiming Wylla is Jon's mother. Does Harwin simply mean that Ashara's suicide doesn't cause a stain on Ned's honour, but cheating on Cat [i]did[/i]? It's a very strange exchange, really. Harwin starts out saying that he knew the tale, but maybe the Dayne version is a bit different than what he's thinking of (Harwin doesn't actually mention Wylla at all). After all, why would Ned Stark's honour being unstained from merely falling in love with Ashara be more significant than actually cheating on Cat with Wylla? Admittedly, smallfolk are considered less significant, but Cat is still a victim of Ned's infidelity if he fathered a bastard after he married her.

[SFDanny]

Other-in-law, I think we are talking apples and oranges. The quote you reference talks to whether or not Ned Stark fell in love with Ashara Dayne at the Harrenhal tourney and how that would be no stain on Ned or Catelyn's honor because it took place in a time when Brandon was betrothed to Catelyn. None of this speaks to Jon's age. We know when Jon is born, or rather approximately when he was born - "eight to nine" months prior to Daenerys' birth, which is pegged to "nine moons" after the flight from King's Landing. All of which, combined with the fact the Harrenhal tourney takes place a year or two before the start of the war, makes a child conceived at Harrenhal as an impossibility for Jon's origins. There are lots of theories about who Jon's mother is, and I don't mean to get into them here, but we know whoever she is she conceived him in a tryst some 3 to 4 months into the rebellion.

What I'm trying to get at in my last post is what seems to be a clear and consistent story told by both Catelyn and Ned that Jon was conceived [i]after[/i] they were married when Ned had gone south to war. This is a pretty sure indicator that Jon's name day is celebrated after Robb's because we know Robb is conceived during Ned's short stay in Riverrun following N&C's wedding. Unless we get into the possibility of a pre-mature birth with Jon, combined with a very early liaison of Ned with Jon's mom following the wedding as part of this story, then we have to say it is certain Jon is thought to be younger than Robb whatever the truth of Jon's actual name day.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='SFDanny' post='1672151' date='Feb 3 2009, 10.24']What I'm trying to get at in my last post is what seems to be a clear and consistent story told by both Catelyn and Ned that Jon was conceived [i]after[/i] they were married when Ned had gone south to war.[/quote]
I agree. At the same time, there are other tales circulating about Jon's birth, and I'm not sure that those all agree that Robb was younger (though maybe I'm seeing something that's not there wrt Ned Dayne and Harwin's reports). And Cat's information would presumably come from Ned, and might be deliberately designed to allay her fears about Jon challenging her children's place.

Dany being born nine months after Jon is almost a special category of evidence, coming straight from the author's mouth, without stopping along the way with any characters. I'm not sure anyone in the story actually knows that, or has the information about both of them to determine that. Dany being on the minority side of the war would restrict knowledge about her a little, and secrecy shrouding Jon's origin would do much more.

On a general note, I'm not sure that the celebration of Jon's nameday can be relied on. Jon himself would have no idea when he was actually born, so if Ned wished to fudge the date for his own reasons, no other chracter we've met would no any better.

[SFDanny]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1672842' date='Feb 3 2009, 18.44']I agree. At the same time, there are other tales circulating about Jon's birth, and I'm not sure that those all agree that Robb was younger (though maybe I'm seeing something that's not there wrt Ned Dayne and Harwin's reports). And Cat's information would presumably come from Ned, and might be deliberately designed to allay her fears about Jon challenging her children's place.[/quote]
I can think of one tale (from a spoiler) that would likely have Jon being born before Robb, but the important point here is that in trying to sort out what is the name day that Jon at least believes to be his true one we have the evidence of Cat's story and Ned's remarks that would indicated he is thought to be younger by the people who would know when Jon's name day was celebrated.

With Harwin's and Ned Dayne's tales, I think I'm reading them differently than you. I see them as only stories of romance, not stories of Jon's conception. In young Dayne's case he thinks Wylla, not his aunt, is Jon's mother. So although he tells Arya how he was told about her father loving Ashara, he does not tell Arya that Ashara is Jon's mother. Harwin only explains that a romance between the two would be no shame on Eddard or Catelyn, not that he thinks the romance lead to Jon's birth. Now, he may believe that, but that is not the content of what he tells Arya.

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1672842' date='Feb 3 2009, 18.44']Dany being born nine months after Jon is almost a special category of evidence, coming straight from the author's mouth, without stopping along the way with any characters. I'm not sure anyone in the story actually knows that, or has the information about both of them to determine that. Dany being on the minority side of the war would restrict knowledge about her a little, and secrecy shrouding Jon's origin would do much more.[/quote]
I agree with all of this. In fact, GRRM's comments have ruled out some scenarios that we might have considered if we relied on just the character's speculation, such as Jon being conceived and born after the Tower of Joy events when Ned arrives in Starfall.

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1672842' date='Feb 3 2009, 18.44']On a general note, I'm not sure that the celebration of Jon's nameday can be relied on. Jon himself would have no idea when he was actually born, so if Ned wished to fudge the date for his own reasons, no other chracter we've met would no any better.[/quote]

I agree completely with this point, and I tried to make it myself in my original post on [url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=31414&view=findpost&p=1539552"]Jon[/url] in this thread.

[SFDanny]

I've found markers that show Trystane Martell was born in Year 287.

[b]Martell, Trystane[/b]

[quote name='A Clash of Kings']"Myrcella is nine, Trystane Martell eleven." ([i]ACoK[/i] 240 US hardback edition)[/quote]
Tyrion talking to Cersei when she finds out he has proposed a match between Myrcella and Trystane. This takes place in 299 after Joffrey's 13th name day and before Joffrey's wedding on New Year's Day 300.

[quote name='A Feast for Crows']"Prince Trystane had taken to the game at once, and Myrcella had learned it so she could play with him. She was not quite one-and-ten, her betrothed three-and-ten; even so, she had been winning more oft than not of late." ([i]AFfC[/i] 187 US hardback edition)[/quote]
Ser Arys Oakheart thinking about Myrcella and Trystane as he goes to meet Arianne. Because this takes place in Year 300 (Prince Oberyn's death is known in Dorne - an event that takes place after Joffrey's wedding) and Trystane is 11 in year 299, it must mean he turns 12 later in 299 and is 13 in early Year 300. He cannot turn both 12 and 13 in Year 300.

The last quote also tells us that Trystane's name day falls before Myrcella's during the year, and the first quote - because it takes place after Joffrey's name day and we know Trystane has not yet turned 12 in 299 - tells us that Trystane's name day falls after Joffery's.

[SFDanny]

[b]Reed, Meera - [/b]
[quote name='A Clash of Kings']She was older than Arya, though; almost sixteen, a woman grown. ([i]ACoK[/i] 326)[/quote]
Bran's view of Meera in Year 299 as they play with Summer in Winterfell's godswood. Bran is nine at this point and it is in the Year 299.

[quote name='A Storm of Swords']Meera Reed was sixteen, a woman grown, but she stood no higher than her brother. ([i]ASoS[/i] 104)[/quote]
Bran, who is still nine at this point ([i]ASoS[/i] 107,) thinking of Meera when they are at Tumbledown Tower after they have fled from Winterfell. Because Bran has a wolf dream of the Red Wedding and the deaths of Robb and Grey Wind ([i]ASoS[/i] 624) much later in their journey, just before he gets to the Nightfort, places this quote from much earlier in 299. [b]The two quotes together show Meera being fifteen and then sixteen in Year 299, and therefore she was born in 283[/b]. Because the events of Tumbledown Tower take place shortly after the burning of Winterfell, and because the news of Bran and Rickon's "deaths" reach Riverrun shortly after Robb turns 16, it tells us that Meera's name day falls somewhere after Bran's and around the time of Robb's.

[Phantom]

Sorry for shamelessly bumping this, but I was wondering if anyone managed to figure out Sandor and Gregor Clegane's ages? I've tried but failed miserably.

[Alexia]

Sorry for shamelessly bumping this, but I was wondering if anyone managed to figure out Sandor and Gregor Clegane's ages? I've tried but failed miserably.

Sandor is 26 when the series starts. He was 12 when he fought as a squire during Robert's Rebellion and the story begins 14 years later.

Gregor is 31 since he was 17 during the Rebellion when he killed Elia and Aegon.

[Eve]

I wonder how many years they are going to age Sandor then as Rory McCann is 41.