The Effects

[Ran]

This is completely random, I guess, but I know people are agonizing over the amount of CG that might be needed for battles and landscapes and such. It doesn't _have_ to be hugely expensive, though, with a bit of effort. So, here's a pile of links regarding Gareth Edwards's work on [i]Heroes and Villains: Attila the Hun[/i], a one-hour BBC/Discovery docudrama budgetted at ~$1 million. Edwards has previously won a BAFTA for his visual effects work, and has been nominated for an Emmy:

[url="http://www.fxguide.com/article463.html"]FX Guide[/url] breaks down his process in detail. Includes pictures, a quicktime film made by Edwards to show an example of his process, a podcast with Edwards, and a YouTube trailer that shows what the finished product was like.

[url="http://www.digitalartsonline.co.uk/features/index.cfm?featureid=1703"]Article[/url] providing more details of the technical process.

[url="http://www.discmakers.com/community/resources/edge/2008/NewModel.asp"]An interview with Edwards[/url]

[url="http://www.reel-show.tv/"]Thirty minute behind the scenes video[/url] with Edwards, lots of good-quality clips in the course of discussing the effects. Registration required. It's in the second page of the features channel I believe.

Edwards directed the Attila program as well, but I can't speak as to his quality as a director. But as a visual effects artist, he seems very industrious, and doubtless there's a lot of talented visual effects people out there who can manage something like what he's done if they apply some of his approach. :)

[Kwasimitsu]

Great information. I was thinking about this as well. I'd hate for the series to run into the same financing wall that Rome ran into...

[Rinso]

Well, if anything, that's very comforting. By looking at the trailer, it has worked out perfectly. IMVHO, it wouldn't hurt if David and Dan at least consider the possibility doing the tough CGI work with something like this.

[Andhaira]

There are pkenty of things they can do. For example, the castles. They are huge than anything in RL. SO just use models for outside shots (like the original SW trilogy). the inside shots/sets/CG will be expensive though.

[Merlkir]

Also for just enhancing shots and retouching them. Remember, even if they have cool looking locations, usually there are roads, buildings, cars, wires and all other kinds of 20th century junk to remove :)

[Ran]

There's a neat bit where Edwards shows a shot just like that. Chopped out a big hill, got rid of a road, etc. in the behind the scenes video I linked.

[Durendale]

Looks like the right man for the job! sold! :smash:

[GoGoHBOSeries]

Good post.

Here's and interesting video on the VFX for HBO's [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTUs7hDq2PA"]John Adams[/url], I suggest you watch it in high def. Lots of snow in this VFX too.

There will have to be some pretty major time/money spent on the VFX in GOT. Fortunately in terms of battles, the books don't go into severe detail on battle scenes. Tyrion Vs. Roose Boltons men (probably the biggest)... A short 30-60 second clip of Jaime Vs. Robb... A burning wight that Jon kills... Some of the flashback scenes... Tyrion, Cat, Bronn and company on their way to see Lysa... Eddard vs. Jaime's men... Thats all I can think of right now. None of those is particularly long (And thus expensive) and I think we have a good shot at seeing them all.

It's the rest of it that is worrisome. Geography plays a huge role in the series. There are a myriad of sets. Much of it will require some VFX, not to mention the detailed set construction HBO is known for these days.

You can see that with John Adams, HBO built a lot of hybrid sets, meaning doors were real but the walls and floors were CG. We also know that George RR Martin thought the Children of Dune series on SciFi was alright by him. I hope that doesn't mean we will see a 100% green screen shoot. I doubt we will.

If anybody can find cost information for digital FX please let me know. I would love to look at it. 1 million bucks for a CG intensive 1 hour show on TV is pretty damn good. Rome got 8+million per episode to shoot... much of that money spent on problems GOT won't face - like shooting at Cincetta Studios in Rome (One of the most expensive studios in the world), the attention to detail (Westeros is a pretty rough place) and historical accuracy (If it looks mideival, its probably good). If we could get numbers on Showtimes "The Tudors" I think we could get a good baseline for how much GOT would cost. I don't think they will want to spend as much as they did on Rome, but they will undoubtedly need to spend more than Showtime does on Tudors.

[Rinso]

[quote name='GoGoHBOSeries' post='1598588' date='Nov 24 2008, 04.40']Here's and interesting video on the VFX for HBO's [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTUs7hDq2PA"]John Adams[/url], I suggest you watch it in high def. Lots of snow in this VFX too.[/quote]

That video was bloody amazing. If they can do something like this with ASoIaF, then there should be absolutely no worries about the quality of the visualization.

*fingers crossed*

[Halfhand]

[quote name='GoGoHBOSeries' post='1598588' date='Nov 24 2008, 00.40']If we could get numbers on Showtimes "The Tudors" I think we could get a good baseline for how much GOT would cost. I don't think they will want to spend as much as they did on Rome, but they will undoubtedly need to spend more than Showtime does on Tudors.[/quote]

[url="http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/entertainment/2003640505_tudor30.html"]This article[/url] indicates it is around 3.5 mill per episode. My guess is Game of Thrones, if they are to do it right, will be around 5-6 mill per.

[Ran]

[i]John Adams[/i] is indeed amazing, but bear in mind that it was an all-out production with a $100 million budget for 7 episodes -- maybe twice as much money for little more than half as many episodes as GoT will have. Still, CafeFX (those seem to be the visual wizards behind it) and other effects guys like them may know how to bring high quality at lower costs to fit a prospective GoT. Reading a bit about them, it's interesting to see that they used some of the same techniques and software as Gareth Edwards -- in particular, it seems they made heavy use of After Effects, as he did, which is a package which most of the biggest visual FX companies consider too low-end for their purposes.

Obviously not, if [i]John Adams[/i] is any example. See [url="http://www.fxguide.com/article499.html"]here[/url] for more information.

[red snow]

I just mentioned this in another thread but realised it would be more apt here and that is my concern over the direwolves.
More than anything else they need to be good enough to believe they are real and can emote. If they come off as cheap and wooden it will really ruin the connection (possibly mental?) between the Stak kids and their pets. I'm not so worried about the dragons as being fantasy creatures we are willing to accept them easier, plus they don't really emote much in the books.
The main problem with the direwolves is their hair as it's murder to animate. They only good one i can think of is the wolf at the start of 300 - something along those lines would work well for the older direwolves.

[gippu]

[quote name='red snow' post='1609988' date='Dec 5 2008, 03.58']I just mentioned this in another thread but realised it would be more apt here and that is my concern over the direwolves.
More than anything else they need to be good enough to believe they are real and can emote. If they come off as cheap and wooden it will really ruin the connection (possibly mental?) between the Stak kids and their pets. I'm not so worried about the dragons as being fantasy creatures we are willing to accept them easier, plus they don't really emote much in the books.
The main problem with the direwolves is their hair as it's murder to animate. They only good one i can think of is the wolf at the start of 300 - something along those lines would work well for the older direwolves.[/quote]

Yeah, CG wolfs would be though. Rhythm & Hues are really good with cg animals (golden compass) though I imagine their expencive. I wonder if they could green screen wolf's and increase their size in post, and just composite upon the footage.

[red snow]

[quote name='gippu' post='1610009' date='Dec 5 2008, 09.47']Yeah, CG wolfs would be though. Rhythm & Hues are really good with cg characters (golden compass) though I imagine their expencive. I wonder if they could green screen wolf's and increase their size in post, and just composite upon the footage.[/quote]

I completely forgot about Golden compass - I think that's the kind of standard we'd have to hope for. I guess for a lot of scenes it would be possible to reuse footage eg general walking/being patted. They'd only have to animate new things for fights and in the case of fights a stunt dog may well be less hassle.

[apatton]

i'm really hoping the others don't look cheesy

what is the screen time for them? 1-2 minutes?

how "alien" should they be?

i am leaning towards the successful horror trend of "not showing" to promote more suspense

thoughts?

[WightMeWorry]

The [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TECO4rpRB0"]300 wolf[/url] is close to how I picture the grown direwolves. Gaunt and terrible, no doubt it's a whole different animal than it's smaller cousins. Here's a Popular Mechanics [url="http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/industry/4206983.html?page=1"]article[/url] on the 300 wolf and modern special effects. If they tone down the demonic-ness somewhat, and make the anatomy a tad less stylized, that's how I picture them. The wolves in the Narnia movies are quite good and more realistic, but they're not interacting with human actors. Here's another [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMhv7JZe_hY&feature=related"]scary [/url] wolf.


I hope there's a running joke with the camera panning away and back and Ghost materializing.

[red snow]

I don't think we need to fully see the others. The intro should be done in such a way that we never get a full glimpse of them.
I don't know why but i always picture them as slighly blue looking elves. Regal but cold. But not smurfs.

[Brude]

[quote name='red snow' post='1609988' date='Dec 5 2008, 03.58']I just mentioned this in another thread but realised it would be more apt here and that is my concern over the direwolves.
More than anything else they need to be good enough to believe they are real and can emote. If they come off as cheap and wooden it will really ruin the connection (possibly mental?) between the Stak kids and their pets. I'm not so worried about the dragons as being fantasy creatures we are willing to accept them easier, plus they don't really emote much in the books.
The main problem with the direwolves is their hair as it's murder to animate. They only good one i can think of is the wolf at the start of 300 - something along those lines would work well for the older direwolves.[/quote]
The Dire Wolves will likely occupy a significant amount of the effects budget, at least when they are more grown. They may just use 1/2 wolf/huskies for much of the first season since they will be smaller and won't need to be full-grown or otherwise oversized until nearer the end. (1/2 wolfs are easier to deal with because they are actually trainable, unlike pure-blood wolves.) Alternately, maybe there is a way to take real 1/2 wolves and tweak them afterwards with CGI - I don't know if that's easier or harder than just going full-blown CGI, but it may be a way to get a more natural "performance" out of them than if they were just purely animated.

Fur can be a real bitch to animate, so I understand though they do have software that is designed to just mimic how hair works so it doesn't all have to be animated like it once was.

[quote name='apatton' post='1610791' date='Dec 5 2008, 19.29']i'm really hoping the others don't look cheesy

what is the screen time for them? 1-2 minutes?[/quote]
It may even be less depending on how it is shot. That scene could easily show only 15 to 30 seconds of the Others and still be effective.

[red snow]

Yeah, they could get away with husky/wolves for a good chunk of the first series as, in the book, they are described as looking almost like wolves when young. It might buy them time to develop the direwolf effects or get a bigger budget. There's also the fact CGI effects continue to get cheaper.