Larry. Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 I meant to post this here a few days ago after discussion at my blog got quite interesting, but I've been laid up with a reoccurring sinus infection, so while I'd suggest that you click on the link to see the discussion there, it'd be best to post thoughts here, just to see what sort of discussion emerges. Below is the text of what I said on Wednesday:At first glance, I would be one of the least likely people to engage in anything that would smack of even unconscious gender bias. For most of my adult working life, I have worked in female-dominated professions (mental health care, secondary education). Most of my close friends are female, and I grew up in a family environment strongly influenced by New Deal-era activism.Yet the numbers do not lie. I keep a written log of the books I've read over the past 3.5 years and there has been a sharp drop in the number of books I've read that were written by women. I had read almost 50 books written by women by the end of April 2008. This year, I am only on number 15 out of 153. The overall percentage last year was over 25%; this year it isn't even at 10%. While I could argue that it's a statistical anomaly that will correct itself over the year, while I could argue that I haven't yet begun to re-read favorite novels written by women, it is fascinating/disturbing to see such a low percentage so far.While I will cop to the near-total avoidance of urban fantasy/paranormal romances sent to me for review purposes, outside of that genre (which I had sampled in the past and didn't find much with which I could connect) there has to be something else going on. It's not like I don't visit websites where female authors are lauded. There are indeed novels and collections by female authors that I want to read. Mary Robinette Kowal is about to release what I believe is her debut short fiction collection; I want that. Catherynne M. Valente has written several stories and novels that I have enjoyed. I just ordered Ursula Le Guin's YA fantasy and am waiting for the first volume to arrive (the others arrived yesterday) so I can begin reading it.But yet this would still be but a drop in the bucket compared to the books I read on a weekly basis. For the past month, I've been averaging over 10 books read per week, with maybe 1 of those each week (often 0) being books written by women. Puzzling, since I do want to read more speculative and mimetic fiction written by women. I wonder if there's some sort of unconscious bias that is filtering out qualified female authors. Or maybe it's something else all together.What about you? Have you ever encountered something similar? What books/authors would you suggest to me? Doesn't have to be a genre fiction; I read quite a few narrative styles on occasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aidan Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 I'm not terribly concerned with the gender of the author of a book I'm reading. If the book sounds good, then I'll read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljkeane Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 I don't really subscribe to the view that you need to read a certain number of authors from any gender or group, the only reading habit that would concern me is if a reader was disounting authors based on their gender. If you are simply reading the books you want to read with no consideration for the gender of the author I don't see that there is any problem with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ormond Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 I'm not sure this really is a problem, but if YOU see it as a problem you could certainly fix it easily enough. I am a bookaholic who buys many more books than I can read in a given year, so I now have a huge selection in my own apartment to choose from. Since I personally do like to read about 50/50 male vs. female authors, I have a couple of shelves in my bedroom where I put the books I am next planning to read, divided 50/50 between male and female authors. When I pick up one book to read, I replace it on the "to-read" shelf with one by an author of the same gender. I also try to make sure that most of the time I alternate between genders in my reading program. Yesterday I just finished The Marriages Between Zones Three, Four, and Five by Doris Lessing, so the book I started last night is My Grandmother's Erotic Folk Tales by Robert Antoni. I replaced Robert Antoni's book on the "to-read" shelf with one by Charles de Lint. Even if you don't want to be quite as systematic as this, you can simply keep track of what you've read in a notebook or in your computer and make sure to review it regularly so if you see an imbalance in any way that you want to redress, you can do so by deliberately chossing books that redress that imbalance for your next few selections.P.S. In terms of suggesting women authors, I suspect you are MUCH better read than I am and probably know about most of the people I could suggest. But in the last couple of years I have enjoyed reading fantasy books by Vonda N. McIntyre, Karen Joy Fowler, Jessica Rydill, Alice Sebold, and Tanith Lee (in addition to Robin Hobb & Jacqueline Carey, who you must already know about :) ). I've read science fiction by Nalo Hopkinson, Maureen F. McHugh, Pat Murphy, and Nancy Kress; and other fiction by Patricia Precioso Martin, Kathleen Alcala, Elif Shafak, Louise Erdrich, and Denise Giardina. I've read mysteries by Lynda S. Robinson set in ancient Egypt and by Julia Spencer-Fleming set in modern upstate New York. If I had to pick just one of the above that if you haven't yet read you definitely should, it would be Louise Erdrich. We read The Master Butchers Singing Club for faculty book discussion last month and it went over really well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Procrastimancer Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 Add me to the list of people who aren't concerned with gender. If a book sounds interesting then I will read it. I am not going to try and self-impose some sort of quota to make sure my reading has a level of gender equality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humble Asskicker Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 Pre-20th century I would agree. I absolutely loath the sentiments and themes explored by female authors. It makes me nauseous. I'll take the genius of George Eliot over the feminine "oh I broke a nail" tripe of the Bronte sisters any day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 The statistics for me are usually pretty skewed by the fact that I don't read nearly as much as others here, and when I find an author that I like, I read a bunch of books in a row by that author. This year so far I've read a bunch of books by Kage Baker and Lois McMaster Bujold, as well as a few others, which I think bumps me into the over 50% by women category. In general, though, I read more books by men than women, although that's something I'm trying to remedy to appease my feminist sensibilities. It's often hard to do that when you rely on this board for a lot of your recommendations. So, I've stopped relying on this board for recommendations, after realizing that if I go by board consensus, I usually don't end up liking a bunch of the authors anyway. :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fossaway Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 I hate to seem sexist but I don't really read many women authors. Its not really a choice I've made consciously, its just that their voice in the book is usually hard to relate to for me. I have had girls tell me that this book or that book couldn't have been written by a man. Writers who can effectively write cross gender lines are rare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyarlathotep Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 Hm, according to Librarything I don't own a single book written by a female, but it doesn't seem like much of an issue to me since I don't pay any attention to gender when I'm browsing on Amazon and whatnot. Guess female writers just don't produce stuff that interests me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinuviel Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 Pre-20th century I would agree. I absolutely loath the sentiments and themes explored by female authors. It makes me nauseous. I'll take the genius of George Eliot over the feminine "oh I broke a nail" tripe of the Bronte sisters any day.George Eliot was a woman! And the Brönte sisters weren't about trivilities but about subjects such as feminine emancipation - try Anne Brönte's The Tenant of Wildfell Hall, which is an indictment against a society where women were unable to divorce an abusive husband. Pretty hard stuff for the 1840s.As regards the Op-Ed. It is curious how gender subconsciously can shape out reading preferences. After reading your statement I took a look at my own bookshelves and my own favorite auhtors - and I must admit that male authors are very much in the minority. My favorites are Jane Austen, Charlotte Brönte, Patricia McKillip, Ursula le Guin, Elizabeth Bear, Sarah Monette, Jacqueline Carey, Juliet Marillier, Mary Gentle, Ellen Kushner, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Georgette Heyer and Sharon K Penman - Guy Gavriel Kay, Orhan Pamuk, Neil Gaiman, George R.R. Martin and Jasper fforde just notable exceptions. This is a huge discrepancy but it is not a conscious one. I just tend to gravitate towards female authors and I must admit that I'm often put off by the more testosterone-driven offerings with the sff genre.We cannot escape our gender and it influences us in many more circumstances than we are aware. However, I do not think that 'quota' reading is the answer. For me it always quality. Granted, the paucity of female artists have often been explained away by the quality argument, when their absence were due to socio-economic factors (at least it was in the visual arts). However, literature was one of the few areas where female artists could participate on (almost) equal footing - hence the wealth of fine female authors of the 19th century. Fantasy might appear a very male-dominated genre if seen from the outside but I find that it is not the case. There are many many talent women writing in the field and I myself was introduced to the genre through writers such as Marion Zimmer Bradley, Julian May, Andre Norton and Anne McCaffrey. However, in the online sff community it does appear male dominated.That's all, folks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry. Posted May 2, 2009 Author Share Posted May 2, 2009 As regards the Op-Ed. It is curious how gender subconsciously can shape out reading preferences. After reading your statement I took a look at my own bookshelves and my own favorite auhtors - and I must admit that male authors are very much in the minority. My favorites are Jane Austen, Charlotte Brönte, Patricia McKillip, Ursula le Guin, Elizabeth Bear, Sarah Monette, Jacqueline Carey, Juliet Marillier, Mary Gentle, Ellen Kushner, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Georgette Heyer and Sharon K Penman - Guy Gavriel Kay, Orhan Pamuk, Neil Gaiman, George R.R. Martin and Jasper fforde just notable exceptions. This is a huge discrepancy but it is not a conscious one. I just tend to gravitate towards female authors and I must admit that I'm often put off by the more testosterone-driven offerings with the sff genre.We cannot escape our gender and it influences us in many more circumstances than we are aware. However, I do not think that 'quota' reading is the answer. For me it always quality. Granted, the paucity of female artists have often been explained away by the quality argument, when their absence were due to socio-economic factors (at least it was in the visual arts). However, literature was one of the few areas where female artists could participate on (almost) equal footing - hence the wealth of fine female authors of the 19th century. Fantasy might appear a very male-dominated genre if seen from the outside but I find that it is not the case. There are many many talent women writing in the field and I myself was introduced to the genre through writers such as Marion Zimmer Bradley, Julian May, Andre Norton and Anne McCaffrey. However, in the online sff community it does appear male dominated.That's all, folks!This is very similar to the general opinions expressed in the comments in my blog post. Neither I nor any there were advocating for any sort of "quota," but rather that there be an attempt to be aware of what one is reading and if one might need to step out from the "comfort zone" a bit to see if more great finds can be added to that "comfort zone." This argument is usually used when it comes to race/ethnic matters, but I think it can be applied well here: it is a privilege to be able to ignore large swaths of literature being produced, especially if one comes from the "established" background. That's not to say one is inherently "bad" or "wrong" for having grown up in such a system, but it does increase the likeliness of certain social biases being reinforced to such an extent that it's virtually undetectable by the person who claims that s/he "only reads" X, Y, or Z on the basis of "quality," yet X, Y, and Z would constitute 80% or more of one group and often much closer to 100%.That's why my statistical analysis of my reading for 2008 and 2009 was very important to me. It made me aware of just how much of a discrepancy there was in my reading, and I'm one of the people who will try reading most anything at least once (my near-total avoidance of what is now termed as "urban fantasy" is based on experience over the years and it is not iron-clad, for example).I have a sneaking suspicion that everyone who replied that it "doesn't matter" or something similar to that, that if they were to look at their bookshelves or to total their reads for this year, that the percentage of female authors would be well under 20%, most likely under 10%. Considering that over half of the reading audience in all fictions are women and that female authors constitute a near-majority of writers, the biases expressed here are quite intriguing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljkeane Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 As regards the Op-Ed. It is curious how gender subconsciously can shape out reading preferences. After reading your statement I took a look at my own bookshelves and my own favorite auhtors - and I must admit that male authors are very much in the minority. My favorites are Jane Austen, Charlotte Brönte, Patricia McKillip, Ursula le Guin, Elizabeth Bear, Sarah Monette, Jacqueline Carey, Juliet Marillier, Mary Gentle, Ellen Kushner, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Georgette Heyer and Sharon K Penman - Guy Gavriel Kay, Orhan Pamuk, Neil Gaiman, George R.R. Martin and Jasper fforde just notable exceptions. This is a huge discrepancy but it is not a conscious one. I just tend to gravitate towards female authors and I must admit that I'm often put off by the more testosterone-driven offerings with the sff genre.We cannot escape our gender and it influences us in many more circumstances than we are aware. However, I do not think that 'quota' reading is the answer. For me it always quality. Granted, the paucity of female artists have often been explained away by the quality argument, when their absence were due to socio-economic factors (at least it was in the visual arts). However, literature was one of the few areas where female artists could participate on (almost) equal footing - hence the wealth of fine female authors of the 19th century. Fantasy might appear a very male-dominated genre if seen from the outside but I find that it is not the case. There are many many talent women writing in the field and I myself was introduced to the genre through writers such as Marion Zimmer Bradley, Julian May, Andre Norton and Anne McCaffrey. However, in the online sff community it does appear male dominated.I don't really agree with this, I've read books by the majority of the authors you have listed and I don't have any problem with reading a book written by a female author. I just feel no need to base my decision on whether to read a book on the gender of the author regardless of the gender of the authors of the books I have read recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageGuy Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 As a kid, I used to have an unconscious bias against female authors. Since then, though, I've read and enjoyed enough female authors that I'm fairly comfortable saying I don't think I have that mindset anymore. My fantasy shelves are disproportionately male, but I tend to stick to the more popular epic fantasy series, which already skew that way. Looking right now, though, I've still got Berg, Bujold, Elliot, Friedman, Hobb, Jones, Kushner, and Novik in my re-read bookshelves (although Elliot and Berg are on the top shelf, I don't think I've read them for awhile, so I might move them out to make room soon. Edit: And twelve male authors in that section). My historical fiction tends to skew more towards female authors, but I don't read much of that. My hard SF is, I believe, all male, but I don't read much of that, either. My regular fiction is probably 60/40 skewing towards male. I don't tend to try new authors much anymore without recommendations, normally from this board, so I don't see the proportions changing soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljkeane Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 This is very similar to the general opinions expressed in the comments in my blog post. Neither I nor any there were advocating for any sort of "quota," but rather that there be an attempt to be aware of what one is reading and if one might need to step out from the "comfort zone" a bit to see if more great finds can be added to that "comfort zone." This argument is usually used when it comes to race/ethnic matters, but I think it can be applied well here: it is a privilege to be able to ignore large swaths of literature being produced, especially if one comes from the "established" background. That's not to say one is inherently "bad" or "wrong" for having grown up in such a system, but it does increase the likeliness of certain social biases being reinforced to such an extent that it's virtually undetectable by the person who claims that s/he "only reads" X, Y, or Z on the basis of "quality," yet X, Y, and Z would constitute 80% or more of one group and often much closer to 100%.You do seem to be implying that unless you intentionally set out to read a sufficient number of books written by female authors you are at best a subconcious sexist. I personally don't choose what books I will read based on the gender of the author but I can say for this year the number of books I've read by female authors is considerably higher than 20%, it could just as easily been 0% either way I don't think the gender of the authors of the books I choose to read says anything significant about my social biases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tears of Lys Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 Pre-20th century I would agree. I absolutely loath the sentiments and themes explored by female authors. It makes me nauseous. I'll take the genius of George Eliot over the feminine "oh I broke a nail" tripe of the Bronte sisters any day.One has to wonder whether you've actually READ anything by them. Villette by Charlotte Bronte is a psychological character study that would make Bakker uncomfortable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 One has to wonder whether you've actually READ anything by them. Villette by Charlotte Bronte is a psychological character study that would make Bakker uncomfortable.Nope, sorry, can't be true. You either get breasts or the ability to write good books. Can't have both. (Note: Does not apply to man-boobs) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry. Posted May 3, 2009 Author Share Posted May 3, 2009 You do seem to be implying that unless you intentionally set out to read a sufficient number of books written by female authors you are at best a subconcious sexist. I personally don't choose what books I will read based on the gender of the author but I can say for this year the number of books I've read by female authors is considerably higher than 20%, it could just as easily been 0% either way I don't think the gender of the authors of the books I choose to read says anything significant about my social biases.No, there is a very big semantic difference between having subconscious biases that are influenced by one's station in a society and being a sexist. One is something that is insidious and affects us all at some point; the other is a conscious decision to skew the data being processed to support one's idealized views of how things ought to be.Whether or not you think they might, the realization that such data shows to many would tend to prove otherwise in the aggregate. Here's a thought: If my question on reading tendencies had been posted on say a romantic fantasy forum, would the percentages and the responses likely be different? If so, what would be driving that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljkeane Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 Whether or not you think they might, the realization that such data shows to many would tend to prove otherwise in the aggregate. Here's a thought: If my question on reading tendencies had been posted on say a romantic fantasy forum, would the percentages and the responses likely be different? If so, what would be driving that?I suspect the majority of those that responded would also say their choice of reading material is not dependent on the gender of the author and while the breakdown of the gender of authors might be different that probably reflects the differing percentages of female authors in the genre rather than definitively saying anything about the social biases of the readers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry. Posted May 3, 2009 Author Share Posted May 3, 2009 Or it might be representative of a subconscious selection bias. Or a cultural one that is a bit more obvious to some when considered. What I'm wanting to see from you (and not getting) is a good alternative explanation, one that takes into account selection bias and dismisses it with sound evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljkeane Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 Or it might be representative of a subconscious selection bias. Or a cultural one that is a bit more obvious to some when considered. What I'm wanting to see from you (and not getting) is a good alternative explanation, one that takes into account selection bias and dismisses it with sound evidence.Alternatively it might just be that generally people choose to read books that they like and the gender of the author is coincidental. You seem to be making some very sweeping assumptions about people's motivations which I suspect are in fact extremely varied and attempting to analyse them on the basis of the percentage of female authors there are amongst the books they have read is very simplistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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