[BOOK SPOILERS] Ep. 102 Discussion Part the Second

[Kat]

Go on.

[Bronn Stone]

Come on, Cersei wouldn't have killed her own child after risking her life in pregnancy and childbirth. In the book she just didn't want to go through it all for the sake of Robert's kid, since she already hated Robert. I assume that in the show they'll have Cersei give Robert the benefit of doubt for a bit longer than in the books, that's all. Hence, a common kid that died.

I am relived that they seem to be taking out the genealogy book, because Ned basing his accusation on it was just stupid, there were 5 or so generations and one Targaryen princess between people mentioned there and Robert.

Cersei's dead kid + Gendry + Barra will make the same point much more plausibly, IMHO.

And yes, Tyrion did think in ACoK that at least one kid of Robert's would have deflected suspicion. But he was speaking about a live kid, IIRC. A long-dead baby and after him a string of blonds wouldn't have quite the same effect.

Ascribing logical motivations to Cersei is not a logical thing to do. Cersei is wildfire. She changes with the prevailing wind and jumps to conclusions on the basis of the skimpiest of evidence. She damned well might have killed the kid growing inside her on the basis of something stupid...

"How about 'Lyanna' if she is a girl???"

"A man has his needs. So did those three tavern wenches."

"The best thing my father did was to foster me at the Eyrie. I think I'll do the same for my heir."

*smack* "I'll honor you again..."

[Cereal Forel]

A blu-ray player would be a very good investment for when this show is released.

[Mack Kilimaro]

Go on.

No u! (Why Bean Bags?)

Seriously though, a lot of my time thinking about the show has been wondering about how different elements would come across to non-readers. I have a friend from my WOW guild who I have talked into trying the show although she had never read the books. She seemed to be hooked from the first episode: as soon as it was over she was like, "Oh my God! I hope Bran survives the fall!"

Last night she was talking to me about how you could really see the connection with each wolf to its Stark child, also how the Queen is such a bitch, and she loves "the younger sister" and the wit of "the dwarf", particularly when they were having breakfast. She singled out the "Speaking for the grotesques..." line there. I hope her opinion is representative of other non-readers who are trying the show.

I asked her who she thinks sent the assassin to Bran's room and she said the Queen. I wonder how the show will have that evidence be revealed and when/if she will change her mind to the correct culprit.

[tripleneck]

Hello All, Newbie here, I've read all the books...

Two favorite moments in ep 2:

1: Lannister breakfast when Jaime says he'd rather be dead than maimed. Tyrion replies that death is so final. Cut to Jaime raising up his cup with the right hand that will be cut off. Very clever nod to readers and nice use of pure imagery to tell the story.

2: The meeting of Sansa and the Hound in the village street. I really like how they're handling his character. And I loved how Joffrey cock-blocks him. The whole world is going to cheer when the little prince chokes on his own tongue.

[Original Ned's Bones]

I do find it odd that Theon was included in the Godswood scene, but I liked how he so confidently pledged his people's help. That made me smirk knowing just how much "help" Theon and his people are going to be.

Actually in the book, he was there for the discussion. I don't have it with me, but it's basically the same scene in AGOT with Catelyn, Rob, Maester L, Rodrick, and Theon, when Cat says she must go to King's Landing. Rob draws his sword in anger and Rodrick dresses him down for it (which Llewyn basically did the same thing in the HBO portrayal when Rob talks about war). In the book Theon tells Catelyn (paraphrasing) "My Lady, my house owes a great debt to the Starks", which I always thought was extremely ironic, given that Ned and Robert cast down Theon's father.

Regarding the Jaime/Jon scene in episode 2, I enjoyed it. I thought it was very in-character to how Jaime tends to mock the young upstarts, especially in ASOS like Cleos Frey and the crossbowman kid at the inn, and even Loras.

Count me amongst the ones who think "It should have been you" never really clicked. I didn't miss it in the episode, and I thought it was better handled in the HBO adaptation. I'm not really a Catelyn hater either though. I don't think George intended readers to hate her, but I don't know, I'm not George. I saw her as a character with good intentions who made some poor choices that escalated the war.

In reference to complaints about the development of the Hound and other characters, I think we all are forgetting that it took 2 to 3 books for us to really form our complete impressions of the characters. At this point in the story, the Hound was really no more than a lapdog for Joeffrey who made short jokes to Tyrion and didn't seem to give a shit that he just ran down a butchers boy. I don't think we get a good introduction to his character until he walks Sansa home from the Hand's tournament.

[chris.t.]

The whole world is going to cheer when the little prince chokes on his own tongue.

Hopefully, the series gets picked up for season three and we can all prepare for the inevitable nation-wide "Joffrey finally gets his" parties.

[Bronn Stone]

Hopefully, the series gets picked up for season three and we can all prepare for the inevitable nation-wide "Joffrey finally gets his" parties.

I don't know if I'll be over my Red Wedding Reception hangover in time.

[ohmahgaw]

Actually in the book, he was there for the discussion. I don't have it with me, but it's basically the same scene in AGOT with Catelyn, Rob, Maester L, Rodrick, and Theon, when Cat says she must go to King's Landing. Rob draws his sword in anger and Rodrick dresses him down for it (which Llewyn basically did the same thing in the HBO portrayal when Rob talks about war). In the book Theon tells Catelyn (paraphrasing) "My Lady, my house owes a great debt to the Starks", which I always thought was extremely ironic, given that Ned and Robert cast down Theon's father.

It always pissed me off in the books that Catelyn trusted Theon and not Jon. She hated Jon because of what he represented, but also because she feared that her son's positions would be challenged by him in the future (Which was why she was so mad at the idea of Rob making him his heir). Given that she felt that way, you would think she'd mistrust Theon just a little bit, I mean his family was at war with the Starks at one point and he wasn't too young to remember that.

[Alexia]

It always pissed me off in the books that Catelyn trusted Theon and not Jon. She hated Jon because of what he represented, but also because she feared that her son's positions would be challenged by him in the future (Which was why she was so mad at the idea of Rob making him his heir). Given that she felt that way, you would think she'd mistrust Theon just a little bit, I mean his family was at war with the Starks at one point and he wasn't too young to remember that.

When did Catelyn trust Theon? IIRC, Theon reminiscences about her coldness and mistrust, and she urges Robb not to send Theon to Balon. I don't recall any indication that she trusted him so I'd be interested to see the citation.

[Norvard]

To some earlier posts about some characters being dirty or having dirt on their faces. I think there is not enough of it. Some actors hair is waaaaay to perfect for such times, people need to have a bit more grease and messiness in their due. Its not like they haid a bunch of hair products and blow dryers in those days.

Also, we havent seen the full scene of the envoy reaching all the way to Kings Landing but I really hope they make it seem like a long journey. So far it has seemed like a little 2 day stroll through the countryside. Sweeping aerial shots of the landscape and maybe even some map shots would help. The land is large.

[JackintheBeanstalk]

"Bean Bags" ROFLKat.

[Kat]

Ascribing logical motivations to Cersei is not a logical thing to do. Cersei is wildfire. She changes with the prevailing wind and jumps to conclusions on the basis of the skimpiest of evidence. She damned well might have killed the kid growing inside her on the basis of something stupid...

"How about 'Lyanna' if she is a girl???"

"A man has his needs. So did those three tavern wenches."

"The best thing my father did was to foster me at the Eyrie. I think I'll do the same for my heir."

*smack* "I'll honor you again..."

Indeed.

Of all things, I can't possibly condemn Cersei if she took abortifacient herbs when pregnant with Robert's baby. I mean, if we're going to be imposing modern ethics on this world and all.....that's one of the least evil things she does in the books

[Volderon]

To some earlier posts about some characters being dirty or having dirt on their faces. I think there is not enough of it. Some actors hair is waaaaay to perfect for such times, people need to have a bit more grease and messiness in their due. Its not like they haid a bunch of hair products and blow dryers in those days.

Also, we havent seen the full scene of the envoy reaching all the way to Kings Landing but I really hope they make it seem like a long journey. So far it has seemed like a little 2 day stroll through the countryside. Sweeping aerial shots of the landscape and maybe even some map shots would help. The land is large.

I think the dirt and grit is good enough. If you think it's bad, watch Camelot. The women actually wear make-up.

[Ser Greguh]

Not sure if it's been discussed but Cersei may not have recognized the kid wasn't Jaime's until after it was born in this particular version of events. IMO it's perfectly plausible she offed the kid. Of course the symptoms of his illness are meant to mirror those of the Tears of Lys, but that seems so obvious it feels like it may be a red herring...

[JackintheBeanstalk]

To some earlier posts about some characters being dirty or having dirt on their faces. I think there is not enough of it. Some actors hair is waaaaay to perfect for such times, people need to have a bit more grease and messiness in their due. Its not like they haid a bunch of hair products and blow dryers in those days.

Also, we havent seen the full scene of the envoy reaching all the way to Kings Landing but I really hope they make it seem like a long journey. So far it has seemed like a little 2 day stroll through the countryside. Sweeping aerial shots of the landscape and maybe even some map shots would help. The land is large.

Exactly right. The trip from Winterfell to the Wall takes at least 18 days. From the boundary of the New Gift alone is 50 leagues. There is a dearth of handy inns in which to pop in and clean up.

[Trebla]

Indeed.

Of all things, I can't possibly condemn Cersei if she took abortifacient herbs when pregnant with Robert's baby. I mean, if we're going to be imposing modern ethics on this world and all.....that's one of the least evil things she does in the books

We once had a very long and heated debate on the subject. It starts to go beyond the abortion debate but into possible treason. Jaime was a member of the Kingsguard, Cersei the queen. They aborted the true born heir to Westeros.

[Alexia]

I don't think Cersei would have killed a living baby of hers. The stigma against kinslaying is strong and at least in the books, saved Tyrion's life. I have no doubt Tywin would have killed him if he didn't believe it would bring a curse down on his head.

IMO, either Cersei took some sort of abortifacient at a late stage of her pregnancy, or this happened before Robert succeeded in turning her against him. I would be very disappointed if show-Cersei turns out to have murdered her own baby.

As for the rest of my thoughts on the show:

I loved the scene between the three Lannisters, and Tyrion smacking Joffrey. The Stark girls are wonderful, and I enjoy watching Joffrey on camera (surprised to see he is shorter than Sansa - how tall is Sophie Turner?). I loved the Hound and his scene with Tyrion and I felt so sorry for poor Mycah. OTOH, Daenerys' handmaids are even more annoying on television ("it is known" :stillsick:) than they were in the books. I also missed Arya's line, "I didn't hurt you...much" from the books.

[Cereal Forel]

I really wish Sophie Turner's hair wasn't so strawberry blonde. She looks so out of place.

[Kat]

We once had a very long and heated debate on the subject. It starts to go beyond the abortion debate but into possible treason. Jaime was a member of the Kingsguard, Cersei the queen. They aborted the true born heir to Westeros.

Yeah, I know. I don't really want to bring it all up again, but like I said, this is me imposing my modern ethics (and feminism) into Westeros. There's very little women are legally or morally allowed to do in Westeros, either because it's a patriarchy and they have no rights, or because it's a feudal monarchy and there's the whole issue of heirs. In my mind, though, Robert has no inherent right to have any woman as the vessel for his heirs-- and that's really what I think about when I decide whether something is evil or not.

Not that I wholly sympathize with Cersei; she's a piece of work who goes beyond simply protecting her own rights and definitely steps far over the boundary of being evil when she starts trying to kill other people's kids, like Bran and Robert's bastards. :dunno: