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Mini Reread: Maester Luwin


DrunkSister

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This is the (very late) branching out from the Jon reread where we began discussing Luwin in comparison and contrast to maester Aemon. Lest we meander far off topic, bemused and I decided to start another tread (and then it took me two weeks to do it, oops! :leaving:).

I'm gonna post quotes in the order in which they appear in the books*, making a pause for discussion whenever we reach a huge chunk of text. I am using text search, if I missed something, let me know. :)

I'll omit places where information is simply repeated, for example, if maester Luwin is seen bandaging Catelyn's fingers, I will omit the instances where she says he did it.

* I considered going by POV, to see how he influenced whom, but IMO that will be apparent anyway, once we have the quotes.

Lets examine his role in the narrative, how GRRM uses him first for worldbuilding and then to yank the carpet from underneath us by relativizing it in later books, how he is used to define other characters, what motives and themes GRRM is exploring with this character...

In-story: his role in Stark household and in Winterfell, relationship to people around him, relationship to women, relationship to the Citadel, religious beliefs, world-view, his role in transmitting the knowledge, if we can guess his origin...

IMO masters conspiracy treads are always in danger of dissolving into multiple conversations and from that into nothingness because of how forums work. So, let us stay on topic here, any info on Luwin is welcome, as well as any comparison to other maesters or characters in ASoIaF, but going off topic is not. We can, however, start new treads, move conversation to already existing ones and/or talk via private messager.

Okay, starting with AGoT, first set of quotes:

Catelyn I

“There are darker things beyond the Wall.” She glanced behind her at the heart tree, the pale bark and red eyes, watching, listening, thinking its long slow thoughts.His smile was gentle. “You listen to too many of Old Nan’s stories. The Others are as dead as the children of the forest, gone eight thousand years. Maester Luwin will tell you they never lived at all. No living man has ever seen one.”

Dread coiled within her like a snake, but she forced herself to smile at this man she loved, this man who put no faith in signs. “I knew that would please you,” she said. “We should send word to your brother on the Wall.”“Yes, of course,” he agreed. “Ben will want to be here. I shall tell Maester Luwin to send his swiftest bird.” Ned rose and pulled her to her feet. “Damnation, how many years has it been? And he gives us no more notice than this? How many in his party, did the message say?”

Jon I
“Take me with you when you go back to the Wall,” Jon said in a sudden rush. “Father will give me leave to go if you ask him, I know he will.”
Uncle Benjen studied his face carefully. “The Wall is a hard place for a boy, Jon.”
“I am almost a man grown,” Jon protested. “I will turn fifteen on my next name day, and Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children.”
“That’s true enough,” Benjen said with a downward twist of his mouth.

Catelyn II
She was about to go to him when the knock came at the door, loud and unexpected. Ned turned, frowning. “What is it?”
Desmond’s voice came through the door. “My lord, Maester Luwin is without and begs urgent audience.”
“You told him I had left orders not to be disturbed?”
“Yes, my lord. He insists.”
“Very well. Send him in.”
Ned crossed to the wardrobe and slipped on a heavy robe. Catelyn realized suddenly how cold it had become. She sat up in bed and pulled the furs to her chin. “Perhaps we should close the windows,” she suggested.
Ned nodded absently. Maester Luwin was shown in.
The maester was a small grey man. His eyes were grey, and quick, and saw much. His hair was grey, what little the years had left him. His robe was grey wool, trimmed with white fur, the Stark colors. Its great floppy sleeves had pockets hidden inside. Luwin was always tucking things into those sleeves and producing other things from them: books, messages, strange artifacts, toys for the children. With all he kept hidden in his sleeves, Catelyn was surprised that Maester Luwin could lift his arms at all.
The maester waited until the door had closed behind him before he spoke.
“My lord,” he said to Ned, “pardon for disturbing your rest. I have been left a message.”
Ned looked irritated. “Been left? By whom? Has there been a rider? I was not told.”
“There was no rider, my lord. Only a carved wooden box, left on a table in my observatory while I napped. My servants saw no one, but it must have been brought by someone in the king’s party. We have had no other visitors from the south.”
“A wooden box, you say?” Catelyn said.
“Inside was a fine new lens for the observatory, from Myr by the look of it. The lenscrafters of Myr are without equal.”
Ned frowned. He had little patience for this sort of thing, Catelyn knew. “A lens,” he said. “What has that to do with me?”
“I asked the same question,” Maester Luwin said. “Clearly there was more to this than the seeming.”
Under the heavy weight of her furs, Catelyn shivered. “A lens is an instrument to help us see.”
“Indeed it is.” He fingered the collar of his order; a heavy chain worn tight around the neck beneath his robe, each link forged from a different metal.
Catelyn could feel dread stirring inside her once again. “What is it that they would have us see more clearly?”
“The very thing I asked myself.” Maester Luwin drew a tightly rolled paper out of his sleeve. “I found the true message concealed within a false bottom when I dismantled the box the lens had come in, but it is not for my eyes.”
Ned held out his hand. “Let me have it, then.”
Luwin did not stir. “Pardons, my lord. The message is not for you either. It is marked for the eyes of the Lady Catelyn, and her alone. May I approach?”
Catelyn nodded, not trusting to speak. The maester placed the paper on the table beside the bed.
It was sealed with a small blob of blue wax. Luwin bowed and began to retreat.
“Stay,” Ned commanded him. His voice was grave. He looked at Catelyn. “What is it? My lady, you’re shaking.
“I’m afraid,” she admitted. She reached out and took the letter in trembling hands. The furs
dropped away from her nakedness, forgotten. In the blue wax was the moon-and-falcon seal of
House Arryn. “It’s from Lysa.” Catelyn looked at her husband. “It will not make us glad,” she
told him. “There is grief in this message, Ned. I can feel it.”
Ned frowned, his face darkening. “Open it.”
Catelyn broke the seal.
Her eyes moved over the words. At first they made no sense to her. Then she remembered. “Lysa took no chances. When we were girls together, we had a private language, she and I”
“Can you read it?”
“Yes,” Catelyn admitted.
“Then tell us.”
“Perhaps I should withdraw,” Maester Luwin said.
“No,” Catelyn said. “We will need your counsel.” She threw back the furs and climbed from the bed. The night air was as cold as the grave on her bare skin as she padded across the room.
Maester Luwin averted his eyes. Even Ned looked shocked. “What are you doing?” he asked.
“Lighting a fire,” Catelyn told him. She found a dressing gown and shrugged into it, then knelt over the cold hearth.
“Maester Luwin-” Ned began.
“Maester Luwin has delivered all my children,” Catelyn said. “This is no time for false modesty.” She slid the paper in among the kindling and placed the heavier logs on top of it. Ned crossed the room, took her by the arm, and pulled her to her feet. He held her there, his face inches from her. “My lady, tell me! What was this message?”
Catelyn stiffened in his grasp. “A warning,” she said softly. “If we have the wits to hear.”
His eyes searched her face. “Go on.”
“Lysa says Jon Arryn was murdered.”
His fingers tightened on her arm. “By whom?”
“The Lannisters,” she told him. “The queen.”
Ned released his hold on her arm. There were deep red marks on her skin. “Gods,” he whispered. His voice was hoarse. “Your sister is sick with grief. She cannot know what she is saying.”
“She knows,” Catelyn said. “Lysa is impulsive, yes, but this message was carefully planned, cleverly hidden. She knew it meant death if her letter fell into the wrong hands. To risk so much, she must have had more than mere suspicion.” Catelyn looked to her husband. “Now we truly have no choice. You must be Robert’s Hand. You must go south with him and learn the truth.”
She saw at once that Ned had reached a very different conclusion. “The only truths I know are here. The south is a nest of adders I would do better to avoid.”
Luwin plucked at his chain collar where it had chafed the soft skin of his throat. “The Hand of the King has great power, my lord. Power to find the truth of Lord Arryn’s death, to bring his killers to the king’s justice. Power to protect Lady Arryn and her son, if the worst be true.”
Ned glanced helplessly around the bedchamber. Catelyn’s heart went out to him, but she knew she could not take him in her arms just then. First the victory must be won, for her children’s sake. “You say you love Robert like a brother. Would you leave your brother surrounded by Lannisters?”
“The Others take both of you,” Ned muttered darkly. He turned away from them and went to the window. She did not speak, nor did the maester. They waited, quiet, while Eddard Stark said a silent farewell to the home he loved. When he turned away from the window at last, his voice was tired and full of melancholy, and moisture glittered faintly in the corners of his eyes. “My father went south once, to answer the summons of a king. He never came home again.”
“A different time,” Maester Luwin said. “A different king.”
“Yes,” Ned said dully. He seated himself in a chair by the hearth. “Catelyn, you shall stay here in Winterfell.”
His words were like an icy draft through her heart. “No,” she said, suddenly afraid. Was this to be her punishment? Never to see his face again, nor to feel his arms around her?
“Yes,” Ned said, in words that would brook no argument. “You must govern the north in my stead, while I run Robert’s errands. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Robb is fourteen. Soon enough, he will be a man grown. He must learn to rule, and I will not be here for him. Make him part of your councils. He must be ready when his time comes.”
“Gods will, not for many years,” Maester Luwin murmured.
“Maester Luwin, I trust you as I would my own blood. Give my wife your voice in all things great and small. Teach my son the things he needs to know. Winter is coming.”
Maester Luwin nodded gravely. Then silence fell, until Catelyn found her courage and asked the question whose answer she most dreaded. “What of the other children?”
Ned stood, and took her in his arms, and held her face close to his. “Rickon is very young,” he said gently. “He should stay here with you and Robb. The others I would take with me.”
“I could not bear it,” Catelyn said, trembling.
“You must,” he said. “Sansa must wed Joffrey, that is clear now, we must give them no grounds to suspect our devotion. And it is past time that Arya learned the ways of a southron court. In a few years she will be of an age to marry too.”
Sansa would shine in the south, Catelyn thought to herself, and the gods knew that Arya needed refinement. Reluctantly, she let go of them in her heart. But not Bran. Never Bran. “Yes,” she said, “but please, Ned, for the love you bear me, let Bran remain here at Winterfell. He is only seven.”
“I was eight when my father sent me to foster at the Eyrie,” Ned said. “Ser Rodrik tells me there is bad feeling between Robb and Prince Joffrey. That is not healthy. Bran can bridge that distance. He is a sweet boy, quick to laugh, easy to love. Let him grow up with the young princes, let him become their friend as Robert became mine. Our House will be the safer for it.”
He was right; Catelyn knew it. It did not make the pain any easier to bear. She would lose all four of them, then: Ned, and both girls, and her sweet, loving Bran. Only Robb and little Rickon would be left to her. She felt lonely already. Winterfell was such a vast place. “Keep him off the walls, then,” she said bravely. “You know how Bran loves to climb.”
Ned kissed the tears from her eyes before they could fall. “Thank you, my lady,” he whispered.
“This is hard, I know.”
“What of Jon Snow, my lord?” Maester Luwin asked.
Catelyn tensed at the mention of the name. Ned felt the anger in her, and pulled away. Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man’s needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father’s castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he
would see to the child’s needs.
He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him “son” for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.
That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband’s soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys’s Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur’s sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.
That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. “Never ask me about Jon,” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady.” She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne’s name was never heard in Winterfell again.
Whoever Jon’s mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was the one thing she could never forgive him. She had come to love her husband with all her heart, but she had never found it in her to love Jon. She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned’s sake, so long as they were out of sight. Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him. Somehow that made it worse. “Jon must go,” she said now.
“He and Robb are close,” Ned said. “I had hoped...”
“He cannot stay here,” Catelyn said, cutting him off. “He is your son, not mine. I will not have him.” It was hard, she knew, but no less the truth. Ned would do the boy no kindness by leaving him here at Winterfell.
The look Ned gave her was anguished. “You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard’s name... you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned.”
Catelyn armored her heart against the mute appeal in her husband’s eyes. “They say your friend Robert has fathered a dozen bastards himself.”
“And none of them has ever been seen at court!” Ned blazed. “The Lannister woman has seen to that. How can you be so damnably cruel, Catelyn? He is only a boy. He-”
His fury was on him. He might have said more, and worse, but Maester Luwin cut in. “Another solution presents itself,” he said, his voice quiet. “Your brother Benjen came to me about Jon a few days ago. It seems the boy aspires to take the black.”
Ned looked shocked. “He asked to join the Night’s Watch?”
Catelyn said nothing. Let Ned work it out in his own mind; her voice would not be welcome now. Yet gladly would she have kissed the maester just then. His was the perfect solution.
Benjen Stark was a Sworn Brother. Jon would be a son to him, the child he would never have.
And in time the boy would take the oath as well. He would father no sons who might someday contest with Catelyn’s own grandchildren for Winterfell.
Maester Luwin said, “There is great honor in service on the Wall, my lord.”
“And even a bastard may rise high in the Night’s Watch,” Ned reflected. Still, his voice was troubled. “Jon is so young. If he asked this when he was a man grown, that would be one thing, but a boy of fourteen...”
“A hard sacrifice,” Maester Luwin agreed. “Yet these are hard times, my lord. His road is no crueler than yours or your lady’s.
Catelyn thought of the three children she must lose. It was not easy keeping silent then.
Ned turned away from them to gaze out the window, his long face silent and thoughtful. Finally he sighed, and turned back. “Very well,” he said to Maester Luwin. “I suppose it is for the best. I will speak to Ben.”
“When shall we tell Jon?” the maester asked.
“When I must. Preparations must be made. It will be a fortnight before we are ready to depart. I would sooner let Jon enjoy these last few days. Summer will end soon enough, and childhood as well. When the time comes, I will tell him myself.”

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Oh goody , here we go...



I'm just finishing something for the Jon Re-Read but I'll have something to say tomorrow.. Right away though, this clarifies something for me .If Maester Luwin delivered all of Cat's children, he must have come to WF with her , and might quite naturally be sympathetic to her in the matter of Jon , inwardly at least.


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Maester Luwin is Catelyn's creature.



Ned isn't blameless. He knew better than anyone what the Wall would have meant for Jon. A frozen hell surrounded by thieves, rapist, and murderers. What a dad. He should have insisted Jon be allowed to come to court and be a squire to some knight. As if Robert would refuse him this request. But that wouldn't be very exciting I suppose.


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Boy, I have stuff on my notepad for 2 threads ,and keep getting distracted , but just quickly...



Thus far ,I think Luwin tries to do his job for Ned ( as he sees it ), but he has emotional ties to Cat. if it distressed her to arrive to find Jon and his wet nurse already installed , Luwin must have had some sympathy, having already formed an intimate bond with her.



Jon never has given a sign that he felt as if Luwin treated him unfairly, but at the same time it doesn't appear that Luwin did much to bring Cat around to be more accepting of Jon. It's nothing Cat remembers , and we have no POV from Luwin. Unfortunately , Ned's silence on the matter of Jon, and his firm squelching of speculation about Ashara can't have helped.



Having brought Cat's children into the world and then being the person who saw to their medical needs, education , etc. could easily make him feel more solicitous / protective of them than of Jon. And of course ,considering Ned's silence , he had to have some of the same dynastic concerns as Cat. He would not see the the possibility of contention for leadership in the house as something good for the house , itself.


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If Maester Luwin delivered all of Cat's children, he must have come to WF with her , and might quite naturally be sympathetic to her in the matter of Jon , inwardly at least.

I don't know how Luwin coming toWF with Cat makes sense with what we know of how maesters are assigned, but since Cat is hardly going to make a mistake here, this must be true.

Thus far ,I think Luwin tries to do his job for Ned ( as he sees it ), but he has emotional ties to Cat. if it distressed her to arrive to find Jon and his wet nurse already installed , Luwin must have had some sympathy, having already formed an intimate bond with her.

Jon never has given a sign that he felt as if Luwin treated him unfairly, but at the same time it doesn't appear that Luwin did much to bring Cat around to be more accepting of Jon. It's nothing Cat remembers , and we have no POV from Luwin. Unfortunately , Ned's silence on the matter of Jon, and his firm squelching of speculation about Ashara can't have helped.

Having brought Cat's children into the world and then being the person who saw to their medical needs, education , etc. could easily make him feel more solicitous / protective of them than of Jon. And of course ,considering Ned's silence , he had to have some of the same dynastic concerns as Cat. He would not see the the possibility of contention for leadership in the house as something good for the house , itself.

I am not sure we see him being this attached to Cat's interests, but I might be wrong. It makes more sense that he would be taking Cat's side to make an ally of her, then use her influence on her husband where his own words do not work.

,,No living man has ever seen one'' - but one freshly dead deserter has...

Luwin:

- he is introduced before we see him, we hear his words from Ned in Bran's POV, then in Cat's. He is introduced as maester (master, implication: master of knowledge) and as readers we are to know that he is learned and trusted as authority.

The maester was a small grey man. His eyes were grey, and quick, and saw much. His hair was grey, what little the years had left him. His robe was grey wool, trimmed with white fur, the Stark colors. Its great floppy sleeves had pockets hidden inside. Luwin was always tucking things into those sleeves and producing other things from them: books, messages, strange artifacts, toys for the children. With all he kept hidden in his sleeves, Catelyn was surprised that Maester Luwin could lift his arms at all.

He seems to be a very image of what a maester is. He is even color coded. I just wonder about wearing stark colors - I do not remember other maesters wearing house colors, am I mis-remembering? I don't know if his coloring is supposed to be a hint that he is loyal or that he is related to starks?

His eyes were grey, and quick, and saw much.

Jon’s eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.

were adjectives in short supply when this was written?

But his sleeves hint at him being a magician! He pulls tricks out of his sleeve to please children but IMO that is not the only hint. “Another solution presents itself,” And then a miracle occurred! That is a good way to withhold his own role and opinion yet have it stated.

Maester Luwin drew a tightly rolled paper out of his sleeve. “I found the true message concealed within a false bottom when I dismantled the box the lens had come in, but it is not for my eyes.”

See? It might as well be a rabbit.

To go slightly off topic:

both Cat and Luwin seem well aware that they are dealing with a symbolical language that carries a message. Which would mean that at the very least those who play the Game of Thrones send such messages or are aware that they exist. I do not remember GRRM utilizing this trope elsewhere, do you? During Tyrion reread somebody explained how Mace Tyrell gave Joffrey a drinking chalice that was very subversive in nature because of colors of sigils on it, but I am not certain this is an in-universe example or GRRM communicating with the reader.

Luwin's role in Winterfell:

  • educating children (and adults when they ask). Now, here as a re-reader I have two layers going on. In the first one, when we are just introduced to the world, there is no reason to doubt maester's words. Catelyn comes of as superstitious, Ned as educated and rational. This is actually genius from GRRM since he is playing into gender stereotypes and then when we reread we are going to think d'oh Cat and Old Nan are right. On a reread, Luwin is feeding them comforting magic-does-not-exist drivel and the commonly accepted albeit inaccurate time line, spreading commonly accepted prejudice about bastards... IDK he doesn't sound all that learned to me. Almost makes me wonder if he didn't get his 'history link' in three months time 20 years ago and has forgotten everything since (he has cliff notes in his sleeve pocket which he consults when he has to).
  • sending out birds, at this point I'm unsure about who writes letters to what extent. Cat and Ned might choose to dictate, or just delegate writing. It probably depends (as we have seen from Robert*)
  • a doctor - women are barred from learning to heal at the citadel, so there are no educated female healers in 7 kingdoms. Yet when Cersei wanted an abortion Jaime found a women to purge her, and I suspect maesters only treat highborns, leaving commoners to hedge doctors (of all genders). This is important because it prevents 7 kingdoms from having any wise women and priestesses. Maegi are foreigners or north of the Wall. This is something that can tie into the potential maester's conspiracy - chicken and the egg kind of question. But that is off topic.

Servant manipulating his masters:

When Luwin presents his reason for being there to Eddard he does it like giving pieces of riddle, he does not just give him the information. By making Cat and Ned work for the answer he is keeping them intrigued, thus averting Ned's anger at being disturbed, and it makes them feel that the answers are more important because of it. It also pushes him in the background letting his masters tell themselves that they worked it out themselves.

Luwin bowed and began to retreat. “Stay,” Ned commanded him.

lololol of course he was going to stay, but the way to insure that was to retreat. This reminds me of Varys and the way he manipulates Tyrion after breaking him out of prison.

Whose idea was it that Benjen be invited? Catelyn suggested it to Eddard, but did Luwin suggest it to her as they discussed the letter after reading?

“What of Jon Snow, my lord?” Maester Luwin asked. Catelyn tensed at the mention of the name.

He is the one introducing the subject. Funny that. Was it really necessary to make that decision then?

“Another solution presents itself,” he said, his voice quiet. “Your brother Benjen came to me about Jon a few days ago. It seems the boy aspires to take the black.”

Ned looked shocked. “He asked to join the Night’s Watch?”

- um... why did Benjen not come to Ned? Why take it up with maester unless he said something like 'I want you to stop pushing him, and I never wish to hear it from him again' lol. Also, it would seem that the decision to send Jon was made without Benjen's input. Explains why Ben all but abandoned Jon at the Wall even though Cat was convinced he would treat him like a son.

Littlefinger got Loras to join kingsguard by paying the bards to play certain songs, I wonder what a measter could do to a boy he was educating by carefully choosing which stories to tell.

I also wonder about his remark that bastards grow faster than other children. It is not something Jon heard in passing, verb 'says' implies that he said it regularly. As per Ned's words Jon is conceived during RR and is younger than Robb. But GRRM has left the timeline shady on purpose and Jon could be either up to one month younger or older than Robb. Was he just a bit faster to teeth, walk, talk? And Luwin covered this up by repeating a commonly held prejudice? Does Luwin suspect?

Chain tugging tick:

Under the heavy weight of her furs, Catelyn shivered. “A lens is an instrument to help us see.”

“Indeed it is.” He fingered the collar of his order; a heavy chain worn tight around the neck beneath his robe, each link forged from a different metal.

---

“The only truths I know are here. The south is a nest of adders I would do better to avoid.”

Luwin plucked at his chain collar where it had chafed the soft skin of his throat. “The Hand of the King has great power, my lord. Power to find the truth of Lord Arryn’s death, to bring his killers to the king’s justice. Power to protect Lady Arryn and her son, if the worst be true.”

I will post a theory that he is doing this when he is manipulating people and see if evidence from later chapters supports it.

* I wonder how letter written in king Robert's own hand might look, and I cackle.

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This was very interesting. Did Littlefinger really pay some of the bards to play certain songs in order to make sure that Loras was named to the Kingsguard? I must have missed that.

A Storm of Swords, Chapter 68, Sansa (blessed be wiki and those who write it).

“I also planted the notion of Ser Loras taking the white. Not that I suggested it, that would have been too crude. But men in my party supplied grisly tales about how the mob had killed Ser Preston Greenfield and raped the Lady Lollys, and slipped a few silvers to Lord Tyrell’s army of singers to sing of Ryam Redwyne, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands.

“Mace Tyrell actually thought it was his own idea to make Ser Loras’s inclusion in the Kingsguard part of the marriage contract. Who better to protect his daughter than her splendid knightly brother? And it relieved him of the difficult task of trying to find lands and a bride for a third son, never easy, and doubly difficult in Ser Loras’s case.

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GRRM has confirmed that Jon is slightly older. But it may be obscure in the book because Ned may keep it obscure to better conceal Jon's identity.The thought occurs that Luwin might have been sent to Cat first ,since she would be Lady Stark, and since she was expecting but the rebellion was still underway , baby Robb might have become Lord Stark before it was over.



Rats ! Need to sleep.


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On Luwin delivering Robb-



At Ramsay's wedding, Lady Dustin says that Rickard's maester was named Walys. If still alive, he would not have left Winterfell when Rickard went to KL, as tending the ravens was one of his main duties. We do see that, in the case of important houses, the Citadel will send out a replacement maester before the death of the previous one (Cressen and Pylos). Perhaps Luwin was headed north to replace an aging or deceased Walys when the Rebellion broke out, reported to Riverrun, and stayed with Catelyn through her pregnancy.


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GRRM has confirmed that Jon is slightly older. But it may be obscure in the book because Ned may keep it obscure to better conceal Jon's identity.The thought occurs that Luwin might have been sent to Cat first ,since she would be Lady Stark, and since she was expecting but the rebellion was still underway , baby Robb might have become Lord Stark before it was over.

Rats ! Need to sleep.

He did?! Yay!

I am certain that it is obscure in the books because of Ned. My pet theory is that the wetnurse was from around TOJ and Starfall (not Wylla, since she is supposed to be Jon's mother) so he was constrained by that when he decided on which story to tell.

Of course, people are not blind, if Jon was ever so slightly faster to develop and is supposed to be younger, they would notice. So, Luwin's claim that bastards grow faster was godsend. Ned is oh so honorable and truthful and Luwin so learned, there is no reason not to trust them.

So, I wonder if Luwin at least suspected.

On Luwin delivering Robb-

At Ramsay's wedding, Lady Dustin says that Rickard's maester was named Walys. If still alive, he would not have left Winterfell when Rickard went to KL, as tending the ravens was one of his main duties. We do see that, in the case of important houses, the Citadel will send out a replacement maester before the death of the previous one (Cressen and Pylos). Perhaps Luwin was headed north to replace an aging or deceased Walys when the Rebellion broke out, reported to Riverrun, and stayed with Catelyn through her pregnancy.

Good point!

I am still not sure that maester Luwin is especially emotionally attached to Cat, and I think it has more to do with similar views of politics and culture, but we will have more in future chapters.

I think next batch of quotes could come on Monday, I have a lot of studying to do over the weekend and I want to concentrate on that.

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Well , we'll have to see how this all adds up... Hmmmm...


I haven't focused on Luwin that closely in the past, but I've seen him as generally benign , if a little bit closed minded when up against things that challenge the accepted wisdom put out by the citadel. I have seen him as having an eye open for the interests of House Stark , within the bounds of what he thinks the aspirations of a house should be. .. and I did notice him being (if not sympathetic to ) in sympathy with , or "of a mind" with Cat , more than Ned .. but then ,we see more of him through Cat.


But now , considering the quotes above and that he began serving Cat before Ned , and taking Ned's secretiveness into account .. my ideas are changing , somewhat ( at least becoming more developed ). A few points..


1) It might have seemed odd to Luwin that Ned didn't look for more advancement from Robert right from the beginning. After all,from his perspective , isn't that what a house should do ..seek increasing amounts of power and influence for the family ?


2) While Ned obviously wouldn't have been very confiding in Luwin, except in the daily business of Warden of the North , I think Cat would have been. He delivered Robb . He probably instructed her in Stark history and connections, as he knew them , to prepare her for her future role. If she needed to air her private misgivings to anyone ( re; Jon or her initial feelings about the north ), her choices would be Luwin or Septon Chayle , especially after Ned nipped the Ashara rumours in the bud.


3) We see that Cat does have succession worries and probably has had for some time. She wouldn't air them to Ned , knowing his sentiments about Jon. And Ned might not twig to the fact that she is worrying about it , since in his mind, there is no question of Jon becoming his successor.


4) Luwin would probably have the same views as Cat anyway , but his loyalty could also be involved if she has been turning to him for sympathy and understanding. I think it's possible Cat and Luwin have discussed the NW option for Jon before , possibly only in a general way - as an ideal scenario which would prevent Jon from establishing a rival line.


5) If (and I stress if ) Benjen mentioned it to Luwin , I'm sure he wouldn't mention it as a good idea. He cautioned Jon about it and tried to dissuade him , initially. Would Luwin lie about it to Ned ? ... maybe not outright..but if Luwin and Cat had been discussing it over time, Luwin might have asked Benjen ( just in passing ;) ) whether Jon had expressed any NW inclinations.

From the way it comes into the conversation in the quote , it sounds like Benjen went to Luwin to discuss it before Ned..but I highly doubt that would be the case.


Anyway , I don't think there's enough there to assume a strong emotional attachment with Cat, like we see with Cressen for Stannis ( poor Cressen !). But because they're inclined to see things the same way and he's seen her grow and mature as well as her children , I think they're simpatico .. in a way Ned doesn't invite. ( So far, at least. )


And so far, I'm thinking Luwin probably didn't have a suspicion of Jon's real parentage , or he wouldn't have been so quick to suggest the NW , and might have tried to do more to temper Cat's fears and her dislike for Jon. Bastards grow up faster might just be the conventional wisdom ( and it rings true in terms of having to toughen up and face realities ) that coincidentally could explain away early childhood growth differences.

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1) It might have seemed odd to Luwin that Ned didn't look for more advancement from Robert right from the beginning. After all,from his perspective , isn't that what a house should do ..seek increasing amounts of power and influence for the family ?

I don't think it is plausible that Luwin could expect more for Ned at that point. Ned is already Warden of the North, and for any better position he'd need to be in KL, away from his lands. Ned needed to gain trust from his people and vassals, to learn to rule (he was not even supposed to inherit) and to have more kids.

2) While Ned obviously wouldn't have been very confiding in Luwin, except in the daily business of Warden of the North, I think Cat would have been. He delivered Robb . He probably instructed her in Stark history and connections, as he knew them , to prepare her for her future role.

But it seems that Ned asked him to explain history to him, and maybe other things pertaining to learning. I am unaware that Ned ever quotes any other maester. Maybe Ned relied on Luwin explaining Stark history and connections just as much as Cat. He was raised away from home since he was eight.

4) Luwin would probably have the same views as Cat anyway , but his loyalty could also be involved if she has been turning to him for sympathy and understanding. I think it's possible Cat and Luwin have discussed the NW option for Jon before , possibly only in a general way - as an ideal scenario which would prevent Jon from establishing a rival line.

I agree about the first part, but I am not sure about the second. I don't think that Cat's thoughts support the idea that they have ever discussed Jon going to NW.

At first she completely forgets about Jon, naturally since she thought she would go with Ned. Then we have the flashback where she thinks on how she tried to persuade Ned to send Jon away. Then she rebels when Ned says he cannot take Jon south.

Then maester Luwin interjects saying that Benjen came to talk to him about Jon joining the Watch, Yet gladly would she have kissed the maester just then. His was the perfect solution.

That sounds very much like she never thought of this before.

5) If (and I stress if ) Benjen mentioned it to Luwin , I'm sure he wouldn't mention it as a good idea. He cautioned Jon about it and tried to dissuade him , initially. Would Luwin lie about it to Ned ? ... maybe not outright..but if Luwin and Cat had been discussing it over time, Luwin might have asked Benjen ( just in passing ;) ) whether Jon had expressed any NW inclinations.

From the way it comes into the conversation in the quote , it sounds like Benjen went to Luwin to discuss it before Ned..but I highly doubt that would be the case.

“Your brother Benjen came to me about Jon a few days ago. It seems the boy aspires to take the black.”

If Luwin was the one who approached Benjen then this is a lie. Why, on a purely practical level, would Luwin lie about this? Why not say that Jon had expressed the wish to take the black and had already spoken to Benjen?

Secondly, he could not be certain Jon had in fact spoken to Benjen, since when we saw it happened it was because Jon was pissed off about seating and half drunk. If Luwin had decided to ship Jon off and to approach Benjen about this in appropriate moment he was running the risk of overshooting by speaking about it too early.

So, I do think that Luwin spoke the truth and that Benjen came to him. To tell him 'What the hell, man, I never want to hear of it again!'. :laugh:

he's seen her grow and mature as well as her children

And Ned. Cat and Ned are of same age IIRC.

And so far, I'm thinking Luwin probably didn't have a suspicion of Jon's real parentage , or he wouldn't have been so quick to suggest the NW , and might have tried to do more to temper Cat's fears and her dislike for Jon.

Yea, probably. Which is kind of disappointing since maesters are supposed to be wise, and Luwin is described as having eyes that saw much. Perhaps he needed a lesson from Syrio Forel? :D

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:D :D Another late night post gone awry !...


In regard to 1) - I put that badly. I didn't mean that he'd have expected Ned to rush right off again..What I meant was , Luwin would naturally think that it was the business of a lord to seek power and advancement for his house. I think he might have always assumed that Ned would do this after settling in and getting a handle on things ( best friend to the King and all ) ..He might have increasingly thought it odd that in 14 yrs. Ned showed no sign of it. Ned still seems happy with the status quo, and has never sought anything more. ( I know Ned's is a big status quo , but look how both Luwin and Cat sort of can't believe Ned would think of refusing Robert.)


I don't think it necessarily follows, that because Ned didn't expect to inherit , that he wouldn't have had any indoctrination in how to rule. Some sort of dynastic marriage would have been sought for him, as well ,or perhaps, some kind of hold would have been carved out for him in the north, making him Brandon's bannerman. He just wouldn't have expected to rule on the same scale as Brandon.


But to expand on 2) - By Rickard's day, the Starks seem to have forgotten much of the import of their long history. It seems,eg, that with the disappearance of direwolves , there can't have been a warg among Starks in over 200 yrs., and maybe much longer, if the ability to bond surfaces as a magical response to a possible threat ( unknown ) , or other variables.


Old Nan's stories were already fables loosely tied to history in Ned's youth.. His early education would have been at the hand of Maester Walys , who for whatever reasons , thought the north should be more like the south , more integrated with the south ( and thus brought under control?)... Then , as you note ,at 8yrs. old, Ned was sent to the Vale, etc... but since he wasn't a hostage , I assume there must have been visits home in all that time (As he and Robert apparently visited Robert's home ). He wouldn't have been a complete fish out of water in the North.


Maester Luwin will tell you .. Here, I don't think he's quoting Luwin .He knows what any maester would tell Cat. He can accurately predict what Luwin would say about her "superstitions" ...it's the accepted wisdom. (Anyway , I won't go off on Ned too much.)


Yeah ,I guess I'll backpedal a bit on 4) ...( but not entirely ) Oh, you're right.. I don't think Cat and Luwin were actually conspiring. But I'm thinking of what we've been told about how some nobles deal with their recognized bastards... Make some sort of appropriate marriage for them, maybe send them to the citadel, foster them out to another noble ...well, none of those appear to be happening, so far... let them rise to a position of authority in their father's own guard ( or heaven forbid- legitimize them ) ..With Cat being so open to seeing signs, it's no wonder she sent Jon black looks when he and Robb played at " I'm Lord of Winterfell "...Then, there's the example of Benjen right under her nose..( and I agree it's notable that she suggested Ned notify him ) .


Some tidbits from Barbrey Dustin on the Grey Rats (They all wear grey, but Luwins white fur makes a nice touch)...


"They scurry everywhere, living on the leavings of the lords, chittering to one another,whispering in the ears of their masters. But who are the masters and who are the servants, truly?" ...



... “They heal, yes. I never said they were not subtle. They tend to us when we are sick and injured,

or distraught over the illness of a parent or a child. Whenever we are weakest and most vulnerable, there they are. Sometimes they heal us, and we are duly grateful. When they fail, they console us in our grief, and we are grateful for that as well. Out of gratitude we give them a place beneath our roof and make them privy to all our shames and secrets, a part of every council. And before too long, the ruler has become the ruled"


Even if this turns out to be an exaggerated view in many cases , "there's truth in there " ,as Jon would say.



Ned would not confide his deepest secrets, they're too dangerous ... and if Luwin knew, they'd be dangerous to him, too ..but I believe Cat would confide hers. Her greatest fears are for the future of her children. Jon is the threat she sees. She can't confide this to Ned .Of course she'd turn to Luwin ... part of his role is to be confidante to the lord and his family. (That doesn't mean he'd run between them repeating their secrets). Even if he just listened while she voiced the options she wished Ned would take , he'd know her mind on the matter. I think , seeing Benjen, she would have thought for a long time that the NW was the best option, preventing Jon from marrying and having children..but she wouldn't think that was what Ned would want , so would probably see it as impossible. I know there's no overt suggestion in the text , but I think she must have thought of it.



Yes, I agree on 5)..So, Benjen approached Luwin . ( It makes sense , too , because with Robert monopolizing Ned ,and Lannisters underfoot everywhere, it might have been hard for Benjen to get a really private word with Ned)..And I also think Benjen's dialogue would probably be something like..Try to discourage him , if he mentions it. He's too young to make that decision .. which is exactly what both Benjen and Ned said, at first..


So I still feel Luwin was acting on Cat's side more than was necessary..When she thinks , His was the perfect solution. , I don't think that automatically implies it's the first she's thought of it , and though we may never know, that she could have kissed him for "his solution" (why not Benjen?)might even mean it's not the first time he's mentioned it to her.. He doesn't say " I have another solution " ..but "Another solution presents itself".. and the way he puts it could be taken to imply Benjen approves of the idea. But I think it's clear she doesn't think of it as Benjen's solution , but Luwin's.


Catelyn's ... Benjen Stark was a Sworn Brother. Jon would be a son to him, the child he would never have.... smacks heavily of rationalization to me. She must have some idea of what life is like on the Wall . Benjen visits occasionally ,with his stories from the wall ... Yoren passes through , with cutthroats and rapists in tow.... She knows it will be a far and miserable cry from the life she expects for her children .

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Okay, I am writing in the mornng as I ingest my fist coffee, expect foolishness. :D I'll put your words in grey, since I don't feel quite capable of html at this hour.



..He might have increasingly thought it odd that in 14 yrs. Ned showed no sign of it. Ned still seems happy with the status quo, and has never sought anything more.


I suppose that would seem strange. Then again, Ned was warden of the North, a realm as huge as other 6 combined. When he is to go south he is concerned about his son learning to lead when he is not there.


I believe the first warning bell was the refusal to foster out Jon. But that would only mean that he wanted his family close to him. Considering what happened to him, it is understandable. But as years pass, I suppose it would get annoying.



The second warning bell was that he wanted to refuse the position of the hand. But did Luwin think that Ned's reasons were foolish and hailing from his personality or something maesters should stomp out? Because IMO it is evident that Ned despises and hates the Southern lords but also he is receiving warnings from old gods.



I don't think it necessarily follows, that because Ned didn't expect to inherit , that he wouldn't have had any indoctrination in how to rule.


I agree. But there is a great difference between holding a lordship for your brother, with a thousand men under you and what he actually inherited. Was it Lord Rickards custom to seat a working man at the high lord's table every evening? To feast with the mountain clans? He had to learn to lead from his memories of his father, of lord Arryn and from people who followed him. Some of which would have been happy to flay him. ;)



He wouldn't have been a complete fish out of water in the North.


Yeees, but! Remember that only the heir is included in his father's councils (as Ned tells Cat here, and as Sam explains to Jon when he is chosen to be a steward). I don't think there was a disconnect in culture, like what Theon felt. But it was Brandon who was known to all and who knew his fathers ambitions, not Ned.


From Davos POV when he is on fingers (?) we have a very flattering portrait of young Ned (only winter is certain) but that doesn't mean that when faced with an entire kingdom (1 out of 7) with unruly and ambitious vassals, in the wake of a dynastic change and after a great personal tragedy, he wouldn't need a lot of help.



Maester Luwin will tell you .. Here, I don't think he's quoting Luwin .He knows what any maester would tell Cat. He can accurately predict what Luwin would say about her "superstitions" ...it's the accepted wisdom.


I need to think about this. Something is niggling me but I don't know what.



but she wouldn't think that was what Ned would want , so would probably see it as impossible. I know there's no overt suggestion in the text , but I think she must have thought of it.


For as long as we agree that there was no conspiracy. :P And I am not sure that this wasn't what Ned wanted. He made no plans for his bastard 'son'. No plans to foster, to make him a squire, to send him to the citadel... Either Ned gave it no thought at all (!) or his long term plan was the watch. After all, his brother was there, and he had plans to revive it. He just didn't think to send Jon there at 14.


Similarly, Benjen praises Jon's observational skills and then says they could use somebody like him at the watch. But backpedals after Jon asks to be taken now, and goes to talk to Luwin.


:dunno:



So I still feel Luwin was acting on Cat's side more than was necessary.


We are in agreement. I just don't think he did it because he had a greater emotional attachment to her because they were closer.



(why not Benjen?)


Because Luwin is the one who opened the problem in this scene and the one who in opportune moment introduced the solution.


From the wording only thing that is clear is that Jon wants to take the black, that he has spoken to Benjen, and that Benjen has spoken to Luwin. It really isn't Benjen's idea in any way.



Benjen visits occasionally ,with his stories from the wall ... Yoren passes through , with cutthroats and rapists in tow....


I don't think she is there when Benjen and Eddard are having a heart to heart, and to children Benjen is telling different tales. As for Yoren and his rapists... I don't think she would be introduced to the rabble, I bet there was somebody like Hot Pie in every batch, and Yoren smells but is otherwise a good man.


People often only see what they choose to, and yes, she is rationalizing, but if Benjen had acted like a father (like we see him act with Jon in Winterfell - which is what Cat would see and expect) Jon would have been very happy at the Wall.



She knows it will be a far and miserable cry from the life she expects for her children .


Benjen joined the Watch. He was probably only a few years older than Jon. If Rickon decided to join do you really think she would be heartbroken? At the Wall Jon would still be dressed and fed, given training and ability to advance. To one day become a Lord Commander. Furthermore, this is a society with a class divide. Majority of people do not get what she expects for her children. That is just the way it is.


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How did Ned manage to become such a paragon Northener and a close friend of Lyanna's if he spent his time in the Vale from age 8 to 18? Or did he return home at some point(when?) and was just visiting Jon Arryn prior to and after the tourney at Harrenhal?


He was fostered, not exiled. Yes, certainly he returned home. Less frequently the first few years, when he would have been performing the duties of a page and then a squire, more often and for longer periods later. During his "squire" years (he wasn't a squire in the strict sense, since he wasn't training for knighthood, but he was acting as one), he would also have accompanied Jon Arryn on many travels out of the Vale. And once he reached the age of sixteen he was a man grown, free to come to go as he liked... which would have included both time at home and in the Vale, since Jon Arryn had become a second father. The same was true of Robert, who divided his time between Storm's End and the Vale after reaching manhood, not to mention dropping in on tourneys and whatever choice fights he could find.


SSM



relevant to our interests



This one is probably trivial, but when did Benjen join the Watch? Right after the war against the Targaryens, more or less?


Pretty much, yes. Probably around about the time Ned returned from the south and Catelyn and Robb and Jon took up residence.


SSM



When was Jon Snow born in relation to the Sack of King's Landing? Around the same time, a month earlier or later?


GRRM stated that he would have to look at his noted to be able to answer but doubted he would answer this question anyway. ;)


SSM


I'll just add stuff while I look for that specific SSM



2. When asked if Maesters could earn multiple links in the same discipline, he said "yes"


SSM


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What an interesting idea for a re read, It has long puzzled me about Maester Luwins birth house, etc.


I always assumed Benjen spoke with Luwin, to seek his council in the matter of Jon & the Watch. But really if Benjen joined the NW so soon after the rebellion he would have no attatchment to Luwin which might drive him to seek luwin to discuss..


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Weirwood's Eyes... I agree , but I think because of Jon saying , " Maester Luwin says"...etc...Benjen might think that Luwin has some influence with Jon .. I'm thinking that Benjen may have wanted to get Luwin to discourage Jon from making that decision at such a young age. Benjen didn't seem to think it was a good idea himself.



I think Luwin is being a bit disingenuous here... Not lying, just not telling everything.

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