Heresy 148

[Black Crow]

Welcome to the latest edition of Heresy, the thread that takes a rather different look at the Song of Ice and Fire and takes leave to challenge some cherished assumptions.

So what’s it all about about - and why has it been running for so long?

The short answer is that it is a free-flowing discussion largely concerned with the Wall and the Heart of Darkness which lies beyond it, but also looking at the story holistically and in the context of what else is happening in Martin’s world. The Heresy itself, if there is one, is simply a way of thinking that challenges those assumptions that the Others are the ultimate enemy and that it only awaits the unmasking of Jon Snow as Azor Ahai and the rightful heir to the Iron Throne [or the other way around] for the story to reach its epic conclusion in a great battle on the Trident, pitting Dany’s amazing dragons and three dragonriders against the icy hordes.

Instead, some of us suspect that the white walkers do not represent an evil empire of the snows, an icy version of a Dothraki khalasar about to embark on the last hurrah of the blue-eyed horde. Some likewise suspect that the dragons and their riders are not to be the saviours of Westeros, but rather a threat at least equal to that posed by the boys in the North. That’s not to say that the blue-eyed lot are actually noble but misunderstood. As I like to say, like Lord Byron they are mad, bad and dangerous to know. Notwithstanding, the old joke that it will not be a question of the dragons saving Westeros from the Others but of the Others saving Westeros from the dragons may in the end have some truth in it.

These are nevertheless just points of view, and no more than that. We argue about them, just as we argue about most things, such as whether the white walkers are indeed Craster’s sons, and who is really behind what’s going on and why.

If new to Heresy you may also want to refer to to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy, latterly identified by topic.

Don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed over the years. We’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask, but be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour.

And don’t forget Snowfyre’s health warning:

WARNING: Mental exercise is essential for a healthy life. But if you do not already exercise your mind, you should seek the advice of your doctor prior to beginning this or any other mental activity. Not all thought exercises are suitable for everyone, and any use of your imagination may result in injury to preconceived worldviews. Consult with your doctor before embarking on theories with The Snowfyre Chorus or other self-acknowledged Heretics. If you experience pain or discomfort during consideration of any theory, stop immediately and consult your doctor. The creators, producers, participants and distributors of Heresy-related theories cannot guarantee that component ideas are proper for every individual, or "safe" for his or her preconceived narrative expectations.

[Black Crow]

Here's that interview discussed last night:

http://www.adriasnews.com/2012/10/george-r-r-martin-interview.html?spref=tw

Prophecies are, you know, a double edge sword. You have to handle them very carefully; I mean, they can add depth and interest to a book, but you don’t want to be too literal or too easy... In the Wars of the Roses, that you mentioned, there was one Lord who had been prophesied would die beneath the walls of a certain castle and he was superstitious at that sort of walls, so he never came anywhere near that castle. He stayed thousands of leagues away from that particular castle because of the prophecy. However, he was killed in the first battle of St. Albans and when they found him dead he was outside of an inn whose sign was the picture of that castle! [Laughs] So you know? That’s the way prophecies come true in unexpected ways. The more you try to avoid them, the more you are making them true, and I make a little fun with that.

There may well indeed be battles but the point I'm making is that contrary to expectation this most likely isn't going to be resolved by Jon flourishing Lightbringer before he hauls himself on to the back of a dragon and leads the armies of men to victory. The prophecy will no doubt come to pass, but not in the way people think - and most likely by Jon as the hero in question trekking north into the dead lands into that heart of darkness.

[Joe Pine]

I think previous thread made good progress on the Nightfort, Black Gate, NW vow and to an extent First Men / Andal proportions in the NW.

[Summer Is Coming!]

I think previous thread made good progress on the Nightfort, Black Gate, NW vow and to an extent First Men / Andal proportions in the NW.

Yes, we may not agree on everything, but the multitude of ideas shows the depth of the text. I think the Black Gate discussion was particularly interesting. Prophecy this week?

[Summer Is Coming!]

Here's that interview discussed last night:

http://www.adriasnews.com/2012/10/george-r-r-martin-interview.html?spref=tw

Prophecies are, you know, a double edge sword. You have to handle them very carefully; I mean, they can add depth and interest to a book, but you don’t want to be too literal or too easy... In the Wars of the Roses, that you mentioned, there was one Lord who had been prophesied would die beneath the walls of a certain castle and he was superstitious at that sort of walls, so he never came anywhere near that castle. He stayed thousands of leagues away from that particular castle because of the prophecy. However, he was killed in the first battle of St. Albans and when they found him dead he was outside of an inn whose sign was the picture of that castle! [Laughs] So you know? That’s the way prophecies come true in unexpected ways. The more you try to avoid them, the more you are making them true, and I make a little fun with that.

There may well indeed be battles but the point I'm making is that contrary to expectation this most likely isn't going to be resolved by Jon flourishing Lightbringer before he hauls himself on to the back of a dragon and leads the armies of men to victory. The prophecy will no doubt come to pass, but not in the way people think - and most likely by Jon as the hero in question trekking north into the dead lands into that heart of darkness.

Nice OP, I first read AGOT in college because I had already read about the Wars of the Roses and thought they were interesting if somewhat crazy. That example reminds me of the Appointment in Samarra: man passes up against Death, she scares him, he borrows a horse telling the owner that he is fleeing to Samarra, Death tells the owner, "It wasn't a threatening gesture, I was surprised to see him today. I have an appointment in Samarra with him tomorrow."

I'm also reminded of the Claudius reading/hearing the Sibyl at Cumae's prophecy about the caesars in I, Claudius then interprets and fully embraces them, seeing them to fruition.

Do we see Jon, Bran, or one of the other characters probably involved in prophecy as having the prophecy occur because they fled, having it occur because they embrace it, or having it occur in a sideways arrangement?

[Joe Pine]

Something I'm curious on is the Company of the Rose stuff and Cregan Stark. I've seen the other thread but only recently picked up the World of Ice and Fire book. Is a Northman Sellsword Company credible based on what has been speculated on Heresy and would they back Jon Snow (if not in the dog)

On the last few posts of 147, I wondered if the God of the Red Priests, R'hillor, could be the thing that brings the sunlight or daylight and whether they could raise the darkness of winter by making the seasons regular again.

[JNR]

:agree: and I would add that this explains the Winterfell setup perfectly. The inner wall is higher, so archers can get a perfect shot at the ice spiders when they reach the top of the outer wall. And there is a dry moat in between, that could be filled with firewood and set ablaze if there was concern about the wights making it past the outer wall- which at 80 ft theoretically could happen if there really are 100-ft snow drifts.

Of course, these defenses would also work well against any other attacker, but I like the idea of the castle having been designed to withstand an Other attack.

Nicely done. Essentially, you're describing the area between the curtain walls as a gigantic de facto fire trench of the sort I had imagined for the Fist... and indeed it could be set up that way. I'm not sure snow, even in a super-blizzard, would really suffice to put out such a fire as that, though it would have to be continually fed with fuel to sustain the defense.

If the traditional story is essentially correct, the post-Long Night Starks and the Watch would have had no idea when or if the Others/wights might return, couldn't be sure the Wall would really suffice, and might logically take such a step. And additional ones.

[Summer Is Coming!]

Something I'm curious on is the Company of the Rose stuff and Cregan Stark. I've seen the other thread but only recently picked up the World of Ice and Fire book. Is a Northman Sellsword Company credible based on what has been speculated on Heresy and would they back Jon Snow (if not in the dog)

The World Book makes it seem like the Company of the Rose is still extant, since it is grouped with the Seconds Sons, Golden Company, Long Lance, Company of the Cat, and Stormcrows, (pg. 265), which we know exist in the present narrative. If the Company of the Rose held true to its origin as those who chose exile rather than kneeling, I would think that they would return to join Robb Stark, the new King in the North's campaign. I suppose they could be under contract, but that would have been a goal aligned with their origin.

The way Ygritte refers with contempt to kneelers sounds like she should have joined the Company of the Rose, but in that same sidebar in the World Book we see that Rodrik Stark joined the Second Sons, not the Company of the Rose some two hundred years after it formed. Does its rose have blue petals?

[Black Crow]

I'm more inclined to simply take it as a typical multi-layered celtic Ringwork per the discussion thread back in the Heresy Centennial project.

Also, like Craster, I still think that the Stark connnection with Winter was such that they were right with the gods and therefore had nothing to fear. There is as always that emphasis by Qhorin on the old gods being those of the First Men - and of the Starks.

[Black Crow]

Does its rose have blue petals?

That would certainly screw a certain assumption in another place. :devil:

[Voice]

I think previous thread made good progress on the Nightfort, Black Gate, NW vow and to an extent First Men / Andal proportions in the NW.

Yes, we may not agree on everything, but the multitude of ideas shows the depth of the text. I think the Black Gate discussion was particularly interesting. Prophecy this week?

Agreed. I enjoyed the Black Gate discussion too. It is easy to see Coldhands as BR's emissary, and while he may be, the "they killed him long ago" comment is a sticking point. We now have confirmation he isn't Benjen, and I think we wouldn't be wrong to think he is a survivor of the Long Night. He knows the intricacies of the Black Gate far to well to be a brother without special significance.

Unless we assume he is NK, I think it likely he is one of the original brothers who served on the Wall near the end of the LN to expel NK. The Last Hero is always a possibility, but I would assume that if a brother keeps his vows, even in his death, he shall live and die at his post and remain at his post alive or dead.

Last thread, I made the argument that Coldhands couldn't pass the gate because he was more, or less, than a normal human brother of the NW. In thinking about it more though, I can't help but feel like he's been true to his vows. Extremely true. And because of this, I think he might be the true and literal First Ranger.

This would align him quite well with the Last Hero, but we must remember the Last Hero was not the First Ranger. He had 12 predecessors. If we look at the text in its own right, and forget about the Oathkeeper episode of the show, we may have had our first glimpse of the Last Hero's companions.

[JNR]

Yes, we may not agree on everything, but the multitude of ideas shows the depth of the text.

And/or the next-generation ambiguity of the author, elevated to such a degree it practically becomes a character in the book.

[Black Crow]

Nice OP, I first read AGOT in college because I had already read about the Wars of the Roses and thought they were interesting if somewhat crazy. That example reminds me of the Appointment in Samarra: man passes up against Death, she scares him, he borrows a horse telling the owner that he is fleeing to Samarra, Death tells the owner, "It wasn't a threatening gesture, I was surprised to see him today. I have an appointment in Samarra with him tomorrow."

I'm also reminded of the Claudius reading/hearing the Sibyl at Cumae's prophecy about the caesars in I, Claudius then interprets and fully embraces them, seeing them to fruition.

Do we see Jon, Bran, or one of the other characters probably involved in prophecy as having the prophecy occur because they fled, having it occur because they embrace it, or having it occur in a sideways arrangement?

I'm not sure that we do, although the obvious example in this case is Rhaegar's blatant attempt to bring about the Prince prophesy, or rather on realising that he didn't fit it, trying to make someone who did.

If, lacking any other evidence, we take the House of the Undying vision as accurate we find him naming his son Aegon as the Prince whose song is that of Ice and Fire [his daughter and the third "head" evidently being mere faithful sidekicks of the chosen one] that rather raises the question of why Rhaegar decided that he wasn't destined to fulfill the prophecy - it can hardly have been the lack of sibling sidekicks given that he had young Viserys and the bump that became Danaerys.

Then of course we also have everything that goes down with Mel's attempts to set up Stannis for president

[Durran Durrandon]

Do we see Jon, Bran, or one of the other characters probably involved in prophecy as having the prophecy occur because they fled, having it occur because they embrace it, or having it occur in a sideways arrangement?

I would say no for Jon and Bran, but potentially yes for Danny. Stanis is a given.

[MaesterSam]

Nicely done. Essentially, you're describing the area between the curtain walls as a gigantic de facto fire trench of the sort I had imagined for the Fist... and indeed it could be set up that way. I'm not sure snow, even in a super-blizzard, would really suffice to put out such a fire as that, though it would have to be continually fed with fuel to sustain the defense.

If the traditional story is essentially correct, the post-Long Night Starks and the Watch would have had no idea when or if the Others/wights might return, couldn't be sure the Wall would really suffice, and might logically take such a step. And additional ones.

Exactly. Fueling it would be a challenge, but presumably a future LN wouldn't come completely out of the blue, thus giving the castle time to stock up large amounts of wood (unless of course all the Starks are preoccupied elsewhere, and clueless ironborn or Boltons hold the castle :P) It's a huge castle of many acres and surrounded by forests, so its inhabitants could collect and store quite a lot. And, once in the moat, the wights themselves would help feed the flames. (I wonder if they're smart enough to stop the attack if there is a fire moat in the way? Otherwise I would suggest building a ramp up the outer wall and watching them drop in, one after the next... like lemmings ;) )

Oil could also be added to get the fire burning in wet/snowy conditions.

I like the idea of additional built-in defenses. The warm springs plus greenhouses would help them withstand a protracted siege, and the built-in heating system allows all firewood to be saved for the moat (rather than being needed to heat the castle). There is also the godswood, which in an emergency can provide another 3 acres of forest to fuel the fire (best not touch the weirwood though!), and, speaking of the weirwood, they can communicate with the local GS. Maybe make some sacrifices in exchange for some warmer weather. I wouldn't be surprised if there was an underground way out of the castle either... Not to mention whatever they have hidden away in those crypts!

Let's put it this way- if it were up to me to choose a place to spend the LN, and Sunspear wasn't an option, I'd pick Winterfell.

I'm more inclined to simply take it as a typical multi-layered celtic Ringwork per the discussion thread back in the Heresy Centennial project.

Also, like Craster, I still think that the Stark connnection with Winter was such that they were right with the gods and therefore had nothing to fear. There is as always that emphasis by Qhorin on the old gods being those of the First Men - and of the Starks.

Of course it's entirely possible that it's just an architectural style, and as I mentioned in my original post, it's a good setup to fight almost any enemy. I would point out though that the wall-dry moat-wall combination is not typical for Westeros. Which may suggest that this design was chosen for a reason, rather than just being the style of the times.

I'm not sure I'd equate the Starks' arrangement with their gods with what Craster is doing. Mormont tells Jon that Craster serves "crueller gods than you and I", suggesting these are not the Old Gods he is giving babies to. Also: there is no weirwood at Craster's. I'm surprised this hasn't come up before. If he is truly the Old Gods' most devoted follower, he should have a weirwood, or better yet a whole grove.

Then there is the location relative to the Wall. Craster lives North of it, and is not bothered by the Others, suggesting he does indeed have some sort of arrangement going on. The Starks, however, despite being kings of winter, live South of the Wall. Legend suggests it was a Stark who built the Wall - but why would they bother, if they have an arrangement that keeps them safe? (Unless you're suggesting they violated the arrangement long, long ago- almost as soon as it was made at the end of the LN. Maybe when the NK was overthrown? I suppose that would be possible). There also have been many Starks on the Wall for thousands of years, and they are known as the Wall's #1 supporters. Again, this doesn't make much sense if they have nothing to fear from the Others.

[Durran Durrandon]

If, lacking any other evidence, we take the House of the Undying vision as accurate we find him naming his son Aegon as the Prince whose song is that of Ice and Fire [his daughter and the third "head" evidently being mere faithful sidekicks of the chosen one] that rather raises the question of why Rhaegar decided that he wasn't destined to fulfill the prophecy - it can hardly have been the lack of sibling sidekicks given that he had young Viserys and the bump that became Danaerys.

Good question, though I think maybe a better question is why did Rhaegar presumably decide that it wasn't Aegon who was the Song of Ice and Fire and he needed a half Stark prince.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Good question, though I think maybe a better question is why did Rhaegar presumably decide that it wasn't Aegon who was the Song of Ice and Fire and he needed a half Stark prince.

Did he? Not much time passes between Aegon's birth and Lyanna's abduction.

[JNR]

And, once in the moat, the wights themselves would help feed the flames.

This reminds me of another thing -- that if you have numerous wights in a relatively small area, like the area between two huge walls, you can just torch one wight with a fire arrow and the rest are likely to go up in short order because they're so flammable.

So, as you say, the wights themselves could have been turned into fuel (by archers on the inner wall) until they ran out as a fuel supply... at which time the problem would effectively have been handled.

I'm not sure I'd equate the Starks' arrangement with their gods with what Craster is doing. Mormont tells Jon that Craster serves "crueller gods than you and I", suggesting these are not the Old Gods he is giving babies to. Also: there is no weirwood at Craster's. I'm surprised this hasn't come up before. If he is truly the Old Gods' most devoted follower, he should have a weirwood, or better yet a whole grove.

The weirwood point is indeed interesting.

Re Mormont, my own take is that while he's aware Craster is dumping his sons in the wood, and all the rangers are, he isn't aware of the reason for it. He thinks Craster's interpretation of, or form of serving, the old gods is different from that of House Mormont or House Stark (which also observe the old gods). Hence his remark to Jon.

Craster's true motive is something I think most of us agree on at this point.

Legend suggests it was a Stark who built the Wall - but why would they bother, if they have an arrangement that keeps them safe? ...There also have been many Starks on the Wall for thousands of years, and they are known as the Wall's #1 supporters. Again, this doesn't make much sense if they have nothing to fear from the Others.

:agree: and would go on to point out the words of House Stark, which I interpret as an ancient reference to the Long Night and the chilling premise that it will inevitably recur.

If so, isn't the implication interesting? -- that House Stark apparently knew, at that ancient point in time, what caused the Long Night... and also knew that it was not a solved problem.

[Harlan]

Of course it's entirely possible that it's just an architectural style, and as I mentioned in my original post, it's a good setup to fight almost any enemy. I would point out though that the wall-dry moat-wall combination is not typical for Westeros. Which may suggest that this design was chosen for a reason, rather than just being the style of the times.

Well, I think the fact that the towers on the inner wall are square while the towers on the outer wall are rounded are strong evidence for the claim that the inner wall and the outer wall weren't built at the same time. The outer wall is much newer and uses a more advanced architectural style. While its possible that the outer wall was built with the idea of creating a fire trap, I don't think it probable because the walls weren't built simultaneously implying the walls were built with different purposes.

I also don't think the fire trap idea is all that good of a strategy to use against the walkers. Doing so gives the enemy a fortification (the outer wall) to hide in/behind. It would be much better to simply hold the outer wall. This forces your enemy to cover open terrain where they could easily be picked off by fire arrows. If you surrender the outer wall, you will be begging your enemy to simply lay siege to you. I also believe it would be generally easier to make and keep a stock of fire arrows during a LN than it would be to maintain enough wood stock to be able to repeatedly set fire traps in the moat in order to ward off multiple attacks.

My real question is if there are other ways of fighting wights. Are they vulnerable to anything other than fire?

EDIT: Honestly I think winterfells design was made so that it would be almost impossible to storm, thanks to the strong multiple layers of defense, and very difficult to seige thanks to deep water sources, along with woods, and the ability to grow crops at any time of year. It's that simple. The design will work against wights because, at some level, wights are forced to fight like normal men.

[Black Crow]

Good question, though I think maybe a better question is why did Rhaegar presumably decide that it wasn't Aegon who was the Song of Ice and Fire and he needed a half Stark prince.

I don't think that he ever did. So far as he was concerned Aegon was the promised one and all he needed to complete the set was "a third" or to be blunt a second faithful sidekick for Aegon - and if he was following the Conqueror's precedent even then Jon would have been a disappointment cos he aint a girlie and therefore unsuitable to fill the role of second wife.