Heresy 161

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 161, and a different angle on the Song of Ice and Fire.

Heresy is not one particular theory but is a free-flowing and above all friendly series of ongoing discussions and arguments, usually concerned with the Wall, the Heart of Darkness which lies beyond it, the old gods and the white walkers and the possible Stark connection to both – or in short, to Winter.

GRRM’s original synopsis from 1993, [transcribed below as usual] emphasises that he is taking the story through five related story arcs, not one. The story has obviously changed and moved in a number of interesting directions since then but above all it’s clear that it does not revolve around the question of Jon Snow’s mother, far less depend upon it for its conclusion, but rather that particular mystery is just one plot device among many in an altogether much larger and much richer story.

The strength and the beauty and ultimately the value of Heresy is that it reflects this diversity. This is a thread where ideas can be discussed – and argued - freely and because it’s a strong thread it can support discussion and argument that might simply vanish in the maelstrom of the general forum, because above all it is about an exchange of ideas and sometimes too a remarkably well informed exchange drawing upon an astonishing broad base of literature ranging through Joseph Conrad, Susannah Clarke, CS Lewis, and so many others all to the way to the Táin Bó Cúailnge and the Mabinogion; it’s about history [not forgetting the all-important date of 1189] its about mythology, archaeology, ringworks and chambered tombs and even, the Gods save us, heroic geology.

If new to Heresy you may also want to refer to to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy, latterly identified by topic.

Don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed over the years. We’re very welcoming and very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask, but be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour.

Beyond that, read on. :commie: :commie: :commie:

[Black Crow]

And now the slightly spoilerish full text of GRRM's1993 letter to his agent, Ralph Vicinanza. Things have obviously changed a bit since then but If you don’t want to know, don’t read on:

October 1993

Dear Ralph,

Here are the first thirteen chapters (170 pages) of the high fantasy novel I promised you, which I'm calling A Game of Thrones. When completed, this will be the first volume in what I see as an epic trilogy with the overall title, A Song of Ice and Fire.

As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it. I do, however, have some strong notions as to the overall structure of the story I'm telling, and the eventual fate of many of the principle [sic] characters in the drama.

Roughly speaking, there are three major conflicts set in motion in the chapters enclosed. These will form the major plot threads of the trilogy, intertwining with each other in what should be a complex but exciting (I hope) narrative tapestry. Each of the conflicts presents a major threat to the peace of my imaginary realm, the Seven Kingdoms, and to the lives of the principal characters.

The first threat grows from the enmity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge, with the iron throne of the Seven Kingdoms as the ultimate prize. This will form the backbone of the first volume of the trilogy, A Game of Thrones.

While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarians hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume,A Dance with Dragons.

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

The thirteen chapters on hand should give you a notion as to my narrative strategy. All three books will feature a complex mosaic of intercutting points-of-view among various of my large and diverse cast of players. The cast will not always remains the same. Old characters will die, and new ones will be introduced. Some of the fatalities will include sympathetic viewpoint characters. I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time.

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.

This is going to be (I hope) quite an epic. Epic in its scale, epic in its action, and epic in its length. I see all three volumes as big books, running about 700 to 800 manuscript pages, so things are just barely getting underway in the thirteen chapters I've sent you.

I have quite a clear notion of how the story is going to unfold in the first volume, A Game of Thrones. Things will get a lot worse for the poor Starks before they get better, I'm afraid. Lord Eddard Stark and his wife Catelyn Tully are both doomed, and will perish at the hands of their enemies. Ned will discover what happened to his friend Jon Arryn, but before he can act on his knowledge, King Robert will have an unfortunate accident, and the throne will pass to his sullen and brutal son Joffrey, still a minor. Joffrey will not be sympathetic and Ned will be accused of treason, but before he is taken he will help his wife and his daughter escape back to Winterfell.

Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, befriend both Sansa and her sister Arya, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake. When his father Eddard Stark is executed, Bran will see the shape of doom descending on all of them, but nothing he can say will stop his brother Robb from calling the banners in rebellion. All the north will be inflamed by war. Robb will win several splendid victories, and maim Joffrey Baratheon on the battlefield, but in the end he will not be able to stand against Jaime and Tyrion Lannister and their allies. Robb Stark will die in battle, and Tyrion Lannister will besiege and burn Winterfell.

Jon Snow, the bastard, will remain in the far north. He will mature into a ranger of great daring, and ultimately will succeed his uncle as the commander of the Night's Watch. When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Arya. Hounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wildling encampment. Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.

Over across the narrow sea, Daenerys Targaryen will discover that her new husband, the Dothraki Khal Drogo, has little interest in invading the Seven Kingdoms, much to her brother's frustration. When Viserys presses his claims past the point of tact or wisdom, Khal Drogo will finally grow annoyed and kill him out of hand, eliminating the Targaryen pretender and leaving Daenerys as the last of her line. Daenerys will bide her time, but she will not forget. When the moment is right, she will kill her husband to avenge her brother, and then flee with a trusted friend into the wilderness beyond Vaes Dothrak. There, hunted by Dothraki bloodriders [?] of her life, she stumbles on a cache of dragon's eggs [?] of a young dragon will give Daenerys the power to bend the Dothraki to her will. Then she begins to plan for her invasion of the Seven Kingdoms.

Tyrion Lannister will continue to travel, to plot, and to play the game of thrones, finally removing his nephew Joffrey in disgust at the boy king's brutality. Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders. Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Snow.

[7 Lines Redacted]

But that's the second book...

I hope you'll find some editors who are as excited about all of this as I am. Feel free to share this letter with anyone who wants to know how the story will go.

All best,

George R.R. Martin

What’s in that redacted passage we don’t know but here’s what appears to be the equally spoilerish original synopsis/publisher’s blurb for Winds of Winter; not the forthcoming one, alas, but one apparently dating back to when it was still to be the third volume of the trilogy and following directly on in content and style from the first synopsis set out above:

Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany’s fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance.

[Black Crow]

For newcomers:

The current discussions are centering the arrival of the direwolf pups; who sent them and why - and how the delivery was accomplished where and when it was. There are question-marks over the circumstances of the discovery and the part played by Gared; whether it is co-incidence that he was taken near to to the spot and whether the she-wolf died in a random encounter with a stag, long gone, or whether she was sacrificed using an antler bone dagger.

As usual in heresy this fairly polarised argument is paralleled by other but related discussions on stag's antlers as a seeming symbol of adherence to the Old Gods, and, once again on that hardy perennial the very nature of warging and greenseeing.

[Urrax2]

Is there any significance to the fact that mama direwolf had been dead for many days - rotting, maggots - when she and the pups were found?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Is there any significance to the fact that mama direwolf had been dead for many days - rotting, maggots - when she and the pups were found?

Was she? Dead for many days, I mean?

[Black Crow]

Is there any significance to the fact that mama direwolf had been dead for many days - rotting, maggots - when she and the pups were found?

I don't know, its something I've wondered about myself, but it may lend support to the theory that Gared was responsible. I've never had the impression that Lord Eddard and his party were afflicted by any sense of urgency and that its far more likely that he was picked up the day before, which would be consistent with the she-wolf also having died at about that time. Although there are maggots and a faint smell of corruption she couldn't have been dead any longer than that otherwise the pups would have been dead too.

[JNR]

Was she? Dead for many days, I mean?

These books being what they are, I'm not sure she's dead even now.

[WeaselPie]

A few things to emphasize the events of Chapter One

"The deserter died bravely," Robb said. He was big and broad and growing every day, with his mother's coloring, the fair skin, red-brown hair, and blue eyes of the Tullys of Riverrun. "He had courage, at the least."

"No," Jon Snow said quietly. "It was not courage. This one was dead of fear. You could see it in his eyes, Stark." Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.

Robb was not impressed. "The Others take his eyes," he swore. "He died well. Race you to the bridge?

and

"I'm surprised she lived long enough to whelp," he said. His voice broke the spell.

"Maybe she didn't," Jory said. "I've heard tales . . . maybe the bitch was already dead when the pups came."

"Born with the dead," another man put in. "Worse luck."

Judging by the condition of the mama corpse, she had been dead for 8-20 hours if we go by the usual hatching routine of the common maggot.

And I think the significance is foreshadowing for Lyanna.

Also this

Ice had formed in its shaggy grey fur, and the faint smell of corruption clung to it like a woman's perfume.

[Urrax2]

I don't know, its something I've wondered about myself, but it may lend support to the theory that Gared was responsible. I've never had the impression that Lord Eddard and his party were afflicted by any sense of urgency and that its far more likely that he was picked up the day before, which would be consistent with the she-wolf also having died at about that time. Although there are maggots and a faint smell of corruption she couldn't have been dead any longer than that otherwise the pups would have been dead too.

Especially in cold weather it take a lot more than one day to produce maggots and smell, even faint.

[wolfmaid7]

Yeah the state of Mama DI is a bit odd and at one point I dismissed it as GRRM just trying to create a scene.But I was intrigued by the fact that she was found in late Summer snows with maggots and it was cold.Though this is a real world parallel just for reference the maggots got me as females are very temp sensitive when it comes to depositing their eggs and then for the hatching.

Now there was an unusual temp increase a week past for a few days I think because as Waymar pointed out the Wall was weeping so heck she could have been dead before Gared crossed for all we know.

The next thing in the quote that's been overlooked, is Jory's remark to Ned's amazement of her living long enough to whelp.

"Maybe she didn't, ive heard tales."

What tales did he hear I wonder?

[Urrax2]

Tales of dead bitches whelping.

[Black Crow]

It may simply be down not to sloppy writing, but to careless writing which needs to create a certain effect without worrying about the practicalities. On the other hand in a world of magic where the dead walk and dragons fly she could well have been dead long before she whelped.

[Mother Other]

It may be a bit simplistic, but I compare the condition of momma DW with the condition of Rhaego:

"Monstrous. Twisted. I drew him forth myself. He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat. When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption. He had been dead for years"

Dead momma DW = pups for the Starks

Dead Rhaego = dragons

Basically I see it as symbolisim, that which was long dead has been reborn. Magic is returning which means the magical bloodlines of Starks and Targs have been restored or reborn.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Basically I see it as symbolisim, that which was long dead has been reborn. Magic is returning which means the magical bloodlines of Starks and Targs have been restored or reborn.

:agree: This dead momma direwolf scene was/is the starting point. From there, the story moves forward, not back. Symbolism and foreshadowing, I see. Carefully constructed backstories, I do not.

.

[Eira Seren]

Especially in cold weather it take a lot more than one day to produce maggots and smell, even faint.

I dunno, but in theory you have a point.

It may be a bit simplistic, but I compare the condition of momma DW with the condition of Rhaego:

"Monstrous. Twisted. I drew him forth myself. He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat. When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption. He had been dead for years"

Dead momma DW = pups for the Starks

Dead Rhaego = dragons

Basically I see it as symbolisim, that which was long dead has been reborn. Magic is returning which means the magical bloodlines of Starks and Targs have been restored or reborn.

Hmm, if you look at the direwolf as a way of creating structure for events and symbolism in the first book. . . it certainly works!

[Black Crow]

It may be a bit simplistic, but I compare the condition of momma DW with the condition of Rhaego:

"Monstrous. Twisted. I drew him forth myself. He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat. When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption. He had been dead for years"

Dead momma DW = pups for the Starks

Dead Rhaego = dragons

Basically I see it as symbolisim, that which was long dead has been reborn. Magic is returning which means the magical bloodlines of Starks and Targs have been restored or reborn.

Yes... I'll add my chorus to the agreement on that symbolism, but in both cases I'd add a caveat. There is a general assumption outside of heresy that these are good things; that the Starks gain their direwolves and will be able to use this warging and greenseeing business to fight the Others, whilst likewise Danaerys has her amazing dragons and will likewise be able to ride them to victory over the Others assisted by Jon Snow a secret Targaryen and therefore a dragonrider born.

[excuse the sound of retching in the corner]

But what if this is not a good thing and that the Starks [and Queen Danaerys] are being used and are being led down the primrose pathway to the everlasting bonfire. Remember that in the end the Nights King had to be cast down by his brother, the Stark in Winterfell.

[Voice]

We don't know the pups were born from a dead mother...only that she died in the process.

"Direwolves loose in the realm, after so many years," muttered Hullen, the master of horse. "I like it not."

"It is a sign," Jory said.

Father frowned. "This is only a dead animal, Jory," he said. Yet he seemed troubled. Snow crunched under his boots as he moved around the body. "Do we know what killed her?"

"There's something in the throat," Robb told him, proud to have found the answer before his father even asked. "There, just under the jaw."

His father knelt and groped under the beast's head with his hand. He gave a yank and held it up for all to see. A foot of shattered antler, tines snapped off, all wet with blood.

A sudden silence descended over the party. The men looked at the antler uneasily, and no one dared to speak. Even Bran could sense their fear, though he did not understand.

His father tossed the antler to the side and cleansed his hands in the snow. "I'm surprised she lived long enough to whelp," he said. His voice broke the spell.

"Maybe she didn't," Jory said. "I've heard tales . . . maybe the bitch was already dead when the pups came."

"Born with the dead," another man put in. "Worse luck."

Jory's comment, "It is a sign" makes little sense if the antler were a dagger, or if Gared had been rambling on about his direwolf sacrifice.

"It is a sign," isn't what I'd say if I found a dog with a dagger stuck in his throat, or a dog some half-mad deserter had just mentioned killing.

[wolfmaid7]

It may simply be down not to sloppy writing, but to careless writing which needs to create a certain effect without worrying about the practicalities. On the other hand in a world of magic where the dead walk and dragons fly she could well have been dead long before she whelped.

It can definitely count for both,and i think GRRM may not have thought about this beyond what he was trying to relay.I personally do maintain a curiosity as to how that event (Direwolf ended up with Antlered Dagger in throat) because it says ritual and message to me.If we go by if it came North or was in the Wolfswood all the time,it still begs the question how.That is a massive wolf,a pregnant one at that so there must have been something.We may never explain it,and it may never be revealed.And i hope we get a conversation between BR where he says and "by the way your welcome for your wolf."

It may be a bit simplistic, but I compare the condition of momma DW with the condition of Rhaego:

"Monstrous. Twisted. I drew him forth myself. He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat. When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption. He had been dead for years"

Dead momma DW = pups for the Starks

Dead Rhaego = dragons

Basically I see it as symbolisim, that which was long dead has been reborn. Magic is returning which means the magical bloodlines of Starks and Targs have been restored or reborn.

I think symbolism is there but not with respect to magic returning.Magic has always been there else we would not have had BR watching the Starks for ages,or the GHH or even Skinchagers beyond the Wall.Its in our face because some people i.e Dany and the Stark kids had not their familiars to awaken what was already there.

This is where the beauty and unexplained things that is magic comes into play.The symbolism i think lies in "identity" who are these kids? Really?" Whereby- and we have this verbal account by two of them- "they are their wolves". That to me is one of the biggest mysteries in this series "how can they be their wolves?"

And i'm reminded of MMD's words "only death can pay for life." which brings me to the other point of "sacrifice" which seems exactly what that was.

Which beings me to point 2 in the symbolism: What and who does the Direwolf symbolize? House Stark? The North. Either way going along with the sacrifice motif.

Out of the death of House Stark or the North will emerge...........Whatever symbolism you choose to ascribe to the wolves.At kease for one of them (In Ghost) we see the Old gods so maybe a resurgence of them.

Yes... I'll add my chorus to the agreement on that symbolism, but in both cases I'd add a caveat. There is a general assumption outside of heresy that these are good things; that the Starks gain their direwolves and will be able to use this warging and greenseeing business to fight the Others, whilst likewise Danaerys has her amazing dragons and will likewise be able to ride them to victory over the Others assisted by Jon Snow a secret Targaryen and therefore a dragonrider born.

[excuse the sound of retching in the corner]

But what if this is not a good thing and that the Starks [and Queen Danaerys] are being used and are being led down the primrose pathway to the everlasting bonfire. Remember that in the end the Nights King had to be cast down by his brother, the Stark in Winterfell.

A good beer will wash that out BC

On the final sentence i am in agreement,except my feeling that the NK wasn't as history made him out to be.He could be bitter now.but then he just got a bad wrap and a dish of treachery.We have to look at what and who the Stark kids can be in capable hands ( and yes i call them kids because most of them are innocent tools). And at sometime in the future there will come a time where either they remain tools or identify with their pack where they bo longer will be tools but become players.

At this moment though all of them( with the exception of Jon and i have no clue what's going on with Rickon ) are being molded and shaped.And all of them have been or are being collected.

[Black Crow]

I think that a better, or rather more sympathetic way of looking at the Nights King is not that he was bad, far less evil - for there really is no hint of either in the story - but rather that he wound up on what turned out to be the wrong side when it all went down.

[wolfmaid7]

We don't know the pups were born from a dead mother...only that she died in the process.

"Direwolves loose in the realm, after so many years," muttered Hullen, the master of horse. "I like it not."

"It is a sign," Jory said.

Father frowned. "This is only a dead animal, Jory," he said. Yet he seemed troubled. Snow crunched under his boots as he moved around the body. "Do we know what killed her?"

"There's something in the throat," Robb told him, proud to have found the answer before his father even asked. "There, just under the jaw."

His father knelt and groped under the beast's head with his hand. He gave a yank and held it up for all to see. A foot of shattered antler, tines snapped off, all wet with blood.

A sudden silence descended over the party. The men looked at the antler uneasily, and no one dared to speak. Even Bran could sense their fear, though he did not understand.

His father tossed the antler to the side and cleansed his hands in the snow. "I'm surprised she lived long enough to whelp," he said. His voice broke the spell.

"Maybe she didn't," Jory said. "I've heard tales . . . maybe the bitch was already dead when the pups came."

"Born with the dead," another man put in. "Worse luck."

Jory's comment, "It is a sign" makes little sense if the antler were a dagger, or if Gared had been rambling on about his direwolf sacrifice.

"It is a sign," isn't what I'd say if I found a dog with a dagger stuck in his throat, or a dog some half-mad deserter had just mentioned killing.

What we do know and what the author has introduce is a character who implied that she did and that whatever tales he's heard made him come to that "possible" conclusion.

I beg to differ on Jory's comment,its ambiguous and atlease two meanings can be drawn from it,but we must ask ourselves what sign or omen did Jory and the others take away from that?

Remeber we did not get from Ned,or Bran what the deserter said.That is left completely out, so without knowing what was said to them by Gared when they ran across the Direwolf could there have been echoes of what he said at play causing that reaction?

To which Ned brushed off,but the other men responded.For all we know given Jory's statement of "hearing tales" what Gared said probably freaked them out and Ned being Ned and in a position of leadership was going to what? Buckle under that,or present a cool,calm outer appearance.

If the tines were not snapped off i would agree with you,but that just seems to me like a crude dagger to be honest.