Heresy 167

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 167, the latest edition of the popular thread that takes a thoughtful and often sideways look at the Song of Ice and Fire.

Pray don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed or might have discussed over the years. This is very much a come as you are thread with no previous experience required. We’re very welcoming and very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask, but be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour

Heresy you see is not of itself a theory and heretics do not take and hold a particular stance on issues, but instead its a free-flowing and above all friendly series of discussions and arguments, usually concerned with the Wall, the Otherlands which lie beyond; warging, skinchanging, greenseeing, the old gods, the children and the white walkers - and the possible Stark connection to both.

GRRM’s original synopsis from 1993, [transcribed below as usual] emphasises that the story is followed through five related story arcs, not one. Clearly the script has changed and moved in a number of interesting directions since then but above all it’s clear from the synopsis that it does not revolve around the question of Jon Snow’s father, far less a return of the king scenario for the conclusion of an altogether much larger and much richer story.

The strength and the beauty and ultimately the value of Heresy as a critical discussion group is that it reflects this diversity. This is a thread where ideas can be discussed – and argued – freely, because above all it is about an exchange of ideas and sometimes too a remarkably well informed exchange drawing upon an astonishing broad base of literature ranging through Joseph Conrad, Susannah Clarke, CS Lewis, and so many others all to the way to the Táin Bó Cúailnge and the Mabinogion; it’s about history [and 1189] It’s about mythology, archaeology, ringworks and chambered tombs and even heroic geology, but above all it’s about the Song of Ice and Fire.

If new to Heresy you may also want to refer to to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy, latterly identified by topic.

And, topically, remember the forum rules on not discussing the mummers’ version of the story outside of the sub-forum provided elsewhere on the site. Traditionally we’ve been a bit laid back about this, restricting discussion only to those matters of unequivocal relevance to Heresy, such as the Craster’s sons business. Don’t abuse this unofficial license and we may still be able to slip under the radar. Try turning this into a general discussion of the show and the wrath of the Mods will descend, so let’s try to keep it business as usual

Beyond that, read on.

[Black Crow]

And now the slightly spoilerish full text of GRRM's1993 letter to his agent, Ralph Vicinanza. Things have obviously changed a bit since then but If you don’t want to know, don’t read on:

October 1993

Dear Ralph,

Here are the first thirteen chapters (170 pages) of the high fantasy novel I promised you, which I'm calling A Game of Thrones. When completed, this will be the first volume in what I see as an epic trilogy with the overall title, A Song of Ice and Fire.

As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it. I do, however, have some strong notions as to the overall structure of the story I'm telling, and the eventual fate of many of the principle [sic] characters in the drama.

Roughly speaking, there are three major conflicts set in motion in the chapters enclosed. These will form the major plot threads of the trilogy, intertwining with each other in what should be a complex but exciting (I hope) narrative tapestry. Each of the conflicts presents a major threat to the peace of my imaginary realm, the Seven Kingdoms, and to the lives of the principal characters.

The first threat grows from the enmity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge, with the iron throne of the Seven Kingdoms as the ultimate prize. This will form the backbone of the first volume of the trilogy, A Game of Thrones.

While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarians hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume,A Dance with Dragons.

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

The thirteen chapters on hand should give you a notion as to my narrative strategy. All three books will feature a complex mosaic of intercutting points-of-view among various of my large and diverse cast of players. The cast will not always remains the same. Old characters will die, and new ones will be introduced. Some of the fatalities will include sympathetic viewpoint characters. I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time.

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.

This is going to be (I hope) quite an epic. Epic in its scale, epic in its action, and epic in its length. I see all three volumes as big books, running about 700 to 800 manuscript pages, so things are just barely getting underway in the thirteen chapters I've sent you.

I have quite a clear notion of how the story is going to unfold in the first volume, A Game of Thrones. Things will get a lot worse for the poor Starks before they get better, I'm afraid. Lord Eddard Stark and his wife Catelyn Tully are both doomed, and will perish at the hands of their enemies. Ned will discover what happened to his friend Jon Arryn, but before he can act on his knowledge, King Robert will have an unfortunate accident, and the throne will pass to his sullen and brutal son Joffrey, still a minor. Joffrey will not be sympathetic and Ned will be accused of treason, but before he is taken he will help his wife and his daughter escape back to Winterfell.

Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, befriend both Sansa and her sister Arya, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake. When his father Eddard Stark is executed, Bran will see the shape of doom descending on all of them, but nothing he can say will stop his brother Robb from calling the banners in rebellion. All the north will be inflamed by war. Robb will win several splendid victories, and maim Joffrey Baratheon on the battlefield, but in the end he will not be able to stand against Jaime and Tyrion Lannister and their allies. Robb Stark will die in battle, and Tyrion Lannister will besiege and burn Winterfell.

Jon Snow, the bastard, will remain in the far north. He will mature into a ranger of great daring, and ultimately will succeed his uncle as the commander of the Night's Watch. When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Arya. Hounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wildling encampment. Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.

Over across the narrow sea, Daenerys Targaryen will discover that her new husband, the Dothraki Khal Drogo, has little interest in invading the Seven Kingdoms, much to her brother's frustration. When Viserys presses his claims past the point of tact or wisdom, Khal Drogo will finally grow annoyed and kill him out of hand, eliminating the Targaryen pretender and leaving Daenerys as the last of her line. Daenerys will bide her time, but she will not forget. When the moment is right, she will kill her husband to avenge her brother, and then flee with a trusted friend into the wilderness beyond Vaes Dothrak. There, hunted by Dothraki bloodriders [?] of her life, she stumbles on a cache of dragon's eggs [?] of a young dragon will give Daenerys the power to bend the Dothraki to her will. Then she begins to plan for her invasion of the Seven Kingdoms.

Tyrion Lannister will continue to travel, to plot, and to play the game of thrones, finally removing his nephew Joffrey in disgust at the boy king's brutality. Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders. Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Snow.

[7 Lines Redacted]

But that's the second book...

I hope you'll find some editors who are as excited about all of this as I am. Feel free to share this letter with anyone who wants to know how the story will go.

All best,

George R.R. Martin

What’s in that redacted passage we don’t know but here’s what appears to be the equally spoilerish original synopsis/publisher’s blurb for Winds of Winter; not the forthcoming one, alas, but one apparently dating back to when it was still to be the third volume of the trilogy and following directly on in content and style from the first synopsis set out above:

Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany’s fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance.

[Voice]

Ned + Some Woman = Lyanna + Some Man = Son of Winterfell

But...

Lyanna + Rhaegar/Arthur/Howland > Lyanna + Some Man

...in terms of emotional and magical impact for Jon.

[wolfmaid7]

To continue this discussion on Jon being a "son of winterfell." I think it's important that we talk about what does that mean.Is it just a name of is there and expectation that comes along with it that Martin is alluding to?

Finish this thought later.

[wolfmaid7]

Double post: Its really sucky to day on here...

[Yield.]

Hello everyone!

It's great to see new faces and old here.

On a continuation of last thread's theme (confess to only reading the last couple of pages, so forgive any errors or omissions.

Very glad to see that we are no longer taking R+L as obvious. This was (as some knew was a bone of contention for me since it was obvious to me on my first, and subsequent reads.)

I would like to say that in ASoIAF blood does tell but not in the we are accustomed.

Theon is brought up as a Stark and until his rescue of fArya this counted for little.

Eddard and Robert were both raised as Arryns. He (jon) is hardly the warrior or the honourable poster child.

Littlefinger was brought up with the Tullys. None of which were hellbent on making their house THE house.

On the inverse side of the coin we have Dany raised by Viserys and sycophants yet she, like Jon, finds her own way but tries to adapt her house words

Tyrion was trained and brought up with the Lannister ideals.

Yes their words and upbringing do to one extent or another reflex their house but when compared to others raised along with them, they are not what you would expect;.

[wolfmaid7]

Ned + Some Woman = Lyanna + Some Man = Son of Winterfell

But...

Lyanna + Rhaegar/Arthur/Howland > Lyanna + Some Man

...in terms of emotional and magical impact for Jon.

Because Ned in every sense that matters is Jon's father i don't expect it to be so much of an impact beyond curiosity as to the circumstances and why.No matter what Ned's actions in his(Jon's) eyes would be golden because he could have done several other things that would have been easier.

To quote Jon "Ned Stark is my father and no matter how many swords (labels,titles) they give me that one truth remains.

Had Catelyn been a good sub as a mother,Jon wouldn't be so desperate for that,had Ned been less than mysterious Jon wouldn't be so desperate for that part of his life. GRRM wrote the story in such a way that it is his mother Jon hungers for...why because plotwise it has a purpose.

He has struggle with his identity in relation to belonging in Winterfell knowing Lyanna is his mother and that she loved him,wanted him to be happy, wanted him to be raised in WF yada yada will give him some sense him being there wasn't a mistake.It wasn't just Ned's honor,but her love.

Magically GRRM has set it up where magical inheritance flows through the matriarchial line in this story which means Jon is taking on a mantle, a different type of kingship through her.That is why Lyanna specifically is important to Jon ,that is why Cat is important in terms of Bran.

The partiarchial inherits a physical title,while the matriarchial is a magical one.Whoever,Jon's father is in terms of magic doesn't really matter.It may matter in terms of a human crown and that's it....imo

Overall all of this will contribute to Jon standing in his bastard title.Which magically and Physically suits this.

[wolfmaid7]

Hello everyone!

It's great to see new faces and old here.

On a continuation of last thread's theme (confess to only reading the last couple of pages, so forgive any errors or omissions.

Very glad to see that we are no longer taking R+L as obvious. This was (as some knew was a bone of contention for me since it was obvious to me on my first, and subsequent reads.)

I would like to say that in ASoIAF blood does tell but not in the we are accustomed.

Theon is brought up as a Stark and until his rescue of fArya this counted for little.

Eddard and Robert were both raised as Arryns. He (jon) is hardly the warrior or the honourable poster child.

Littlefinger was brought up with the Tullys. None of which were hellbent on making their house THE house.

On the inverse side of the coin we have Dany raised by Viserys and sycophants yet she, like Jon, finds her own way but tries to adapt her house words

Tyrion was trained and brought up with the Lannister ideals.

Yes their words and upbringing do to one extent or another reflex their house but when compared to others raised along with them, they are not what you would expect;.

Dude where have you been hiding???? NIce to see you back :cheers:

[Yield.]

Dude where have you been hiding???? NIce to see you back :cheers:

RL. I was in Florida or a year and while in many ways its the back of beyond, I had little time to read and post.

Because Ned in every sense that matters is Jon's father i don't expect it to be so much of an impact beyond curiosity as to the circumstances and why.No matter what Ned's actions in his(Jon's) eyes would be golden because he could have done several other things that would have been easier.

To quote Jon "Ned Stark is my father and no matter how many swords (labels,titles) they give me that one truth remains.

Had Catelyn been a good sub as a mother,Jon wouldn't be so desperate for that,had Ned been less than mysterious Jon wouldn't be so desperate for that part of his life. GRRM wrote the story in such a way that it is his mother Jon hungers for...why because plotwise it has a purpose.

He has struggle with his identity in relation to belonging in Winterfell knowing Lyanna is his mother and that she loved him,wanted him to be happy, wanted him to be raised in WF yada yada will give him some sense him being there wasn't a mistake.It wasn't just Ned's honor,but her love.

Magically GRRM has set it up where magical inheritance flows through the matriarchial line in this story which means Jon is taking on a mantle, a different type of kingship through her.That is why Lyanna specifically is important to Jon ,that is why Cat is important in terms of Bran.

The partiarchial inherits a physical title,while the matriarchial is a magical one.Whoever,Jon's father is in terms of magic doesn't really matter.It may matter in terms of a human crown and that's it....imo

Overall all of this will contribute to Jon standing in his bastard title.Which magically and Physically suits this.

As usual there is notion here i don;t heartily agree with.

.

To continue this discussion on Jon being a "son of winterfell." I think it's important that we talk about what does that mean.Is it just a name of is there and expectation that comes along with it that Martin is alluding to?

Finish this thought later.

I touched on this in my post and can't wait tiol you w9rk it out.

Ned + Some Woman = Lyanna + Some Man = Son of Winterfell

But...

Lyanna + Rhaegar/Arthur/Howland > Lyanna + Some Man

...in terms of emotional and magical impact for Jon.

Magically yes, but either way you slice it it's a huge whack for Jon.

[Voice]

Double post: Its really sucky to day on here...

If only the site were more stable. Too bad there isn't a more stable forum in which to discuss the series. :cool4:

Hello everyone!

It's great to see new faces and old here.

On a continuation of last thread's theme (confess to only reading the last couple of pages, so forgive any errors or omissions.

Very glad to see that we are no longer taking R+L as obvious. This was (as some knew was a bone of contention for me since it was obvious to me on my first, and subsequent reads.)

I would like to say that in ASoIAF blood does tell but not in the we are accustomed.

Theon is brought up as a Stark and until his rescue of fArya this counted for little.

Eddard and Robert were both raised as Arryns. He (jon) is hardly the warrior or the honourable poster child.

Littlefinger was brought up with the Tullys. None of which were hellbent on making their house THE house.

On the inverse side of the coin we have Dany raised by Viserys and sycophants yet she, like Jon, finds her own way but tries to adapt her house words

Tyrion was trained and brought up with the Lannister ideals.

Yes their words and upbringing do to one extent or another reflex their house but when compared to others raised along with them, they are not what you would expect;.

Good stuff. :cheers:

Jon is a Stark by upbringing, which is far more important than being a Stark by blood. Theon demonstrates this, though not without some missteps along the way ;)

Because Ned in every sense that matters is Jon's father i don't expect it to be so much of an impact beyond curiosity as to the circumstances and why.No matter what Ned's actions in his(Jon's) eyes would be golden because he could have done several other things that would have been easier.

To quote Jon "Ned Stark is my father and no matter how many swords (labels,titles) they give me that one truth remains.

And if that "one truth" is a lie, I think Jon will be profoundly effected by the realization that his father is not Lord Eddard Stark, but some other man, who is likely of some import.

Had Catelyn been a good sub as a mother,Jon wouldn't be so desperate for that,had Ned been less than mysterious Jon wouldn't be so desperate for that part of his life. GRRM wrote the story in such a way that it is his mother Jon hungers for...why because plotwise it has a purpose.

Agreed. It will alleviate the stress Cat caused for him. I expressed the same sentiment last heresy as well.

He has struggle with his identity in relation to belonging in Winterfell knowing Lyanna is his mother and that she loved him,wanted him to be happy, wanted him to be raised in WF yada yada will give him some sense him being there wasn't a mistake.It wasn't just Ned's honor,but her love.

Again we agree. And I think this is the point BC is making. I agree Lyanna as a mother will drastically change the way Jon sees Ned and Cat, but it doesn't really change much for him in regards to his connection to Winterfell. He just went from being one Stark's bastard, to another Stark's bastard. And while Ned certainly acted out of honor, he nonetheless showed Jon love. Aside from Cat, Sansa, and Theon, Jon was surrounded by people that loved him.

Magically GRRM has set it up where magical inheritance flows through the matriarchial line in this story

That is certainly your opinion, but hardly proven.

Otherwise, why does Bran have wolf dreams? Hell, why does Bran have a wolf?

I do not dismiss the maternal lineages of the characters, but clearly magical inheritance flows paternally as well.

which means Jon is taking on a mantle, a different type of kingship through her.That is why Lyanna specifically is important to Jon ,that is why Cat is important in terms of Bran.

Sure. Mothers are important. But Ned is also "important in terms of Bran."

We can spin Arya's quote the other way as well, The man is important too!

The partiarchial inherits a physical title,while the matriarchial is a magical one.Whoever,Jon's father is in terms of magic doesn't really matter.It may matter in terms of a human crown and that's it....imo

Sure, in your opinion. I can see how this lines up in your view of things. But from where I'm sitting, we've no reason to assume magic practices gender discrimination when transmitting capabilites to the next generation...

Overall all of this will contribute to Jon standing in his bastard title.Which magically and Physically suits this.

Here I agree. I think Jon will remain a bastard. And that heeding Tyrion's advice to embrace the title will help him overcome his psychological issues. Though I do not see how bastardy contributes to him magically, or how it would make any magical difference if Jon were trueborn.

[Matthew.]

The idea of magic gifts coming only from the matriarchal line is, at least as far as dragon blood goes, an inaccurate theory. All presently known Targs (Bloodraven excluded) claim their descent from Aegon V, who didn't marry one of his sisters, so Dany's dragon dreams and "dragon blood" can ultimately be traced to the patriarchal line.

[Voice]

Magically yes, but either way you slice it it's a huge whack for Jon.

Agreed. I'd even say "huge whack" is an understatement. If you found out tomorrow your father was not your father, but your mother's brother... and that your real father was John F Kennedy, and that your real mother died giving birth to you in Cuba, I'd say that's more than a wack. That's a Thwump!

Edit: And yes, I'm picturing Lyanna as a sexy, brunette Marilyn Monroe right now...

The idea of magic gifts coming only from the matriarchal line is, at least as far as dragon blood goes, an inaccurate theory. All presently known Targs (Bloodraven excluded) claim their descent from Aegon V, who didn't marry one of his sisters, so Dany's dragon dreams and "dragon blood" can ultimately be traced to the patriarchal line.

There you go again Ser Grandmother. Leave it to you to #truth.

[Black Crow]

Hello everyone!

It's great to see new faces and old here.

On a continuation of last thread's theme (confess to only reading the last couple of pages, so forgive any errors or omissions.

Very glad to see that we are no longer taking R+L as obvious. This was (as some knew was a bone of contention for me since it was obvious to me on my first, and subsequent reads.) ...

Welcome back, you've been missed.

I think much depends on how we define obvious. Is R+L=J too obvious to be true or does it not matter because the real red herring is Azor Ahai?

[moey reed]

good evening everyone

the site is acting up, so i haven't been able to post for the past hour and forgot half the things i was going to say :bang:

i don't remember who of you guys said it, but i would LOVE dany being a secret stark. we have enough secret targs as it is and that would be a nice twist, just for the giggles though :)

as to the winterfell crypts, that has to be one of the most intriguing mysteries, once i imagined bloodraven's nemesis sitting in the roots, trying to manipulate everything. but i'm not that convinced anymore :) just don't know why they would start somewhere deep down and work thei way up. what if they run out of place? that has to be sometime soon imagine

[Voice]

I think much depends on how we define obvious. Is R+L=J too obvious to be true or does it not matter because the real red herring is Azor Ahai?

I think Azor Ahai is the messianic facade of the darkness that is R'hllorism.

I think the Last Hero was a real dude. And I think we will see a "prince that was promised" because his is the only mention we have of the "Song of Ice and Fire."

Where I tend to disagree with some faithfuls, and some Heretics it would seem ;) is that I believe tptwp to be a magical office, rather than a political one. "...his is the song of ice and fire" sounds like magic to me, rather than a claim to any throne.

Rhaegar was interested in prophecy, tptwp is one. Aemon believed the dragons were "proof" that Dany fulfilled it. And we know that tptwp, alone, bears the Song of Ice and Fire... So, put all of that in a pot, mix it together till the pot cracks, and what do you got? A woman born of smoke and salt with three dragons that isn't the savior the realm has been waiting for (instead she is the second greatest threat that exists to it)... And, a bastard born of dishonor, raised by an honorable man, who despite his bastard blood (which can never be trusted) is the most trustworthy character in Westeros.

I think we can all agree that Jon has an Icy manner about him (last name Snow, raised where Winter Falls, was most recent commander of a big Wall made of frozen water)...

And I think we can all agree that Dany has a Fiery manner about her (last name Targaryen, raised where Lemon Trees grow, walked into a funeral pyre under a red comet and hatched three fire-breathing dragons).

The question then, is how GRRM might toy with these concepts in a way that isn't simple.

i don't remember who of you guys said it, but i would LOVE dany being a secret stark. we have enough secret targs as it is and that would be a nice twist, just for the giggles though :)

Twas I, but it's not my idea. Weasel Pie has mentioned it from time to time, as have others.

Martin likes to play with the idea of Nature vs Nurture. Dany may excel at being a Targaryen only because she thinks she's of Valyria... Just as Jon may excel at being a Stark only because he thinks he's of Winterfell... Both could be wrong :devil:

as to the winterfell crypts, that has to be one of the most intriguing mysteries, once i imagined bloodraven's nemesis sitting in the roots, trying to manipulate everything. but i'm not that convinced anymore :) just don't know why they would start somewhere deep down and work thei way up. what if they run out of place? that has to be sometime soon imagine

I would imagine the upper levels are easily expandable, like a typical crypt. The lower levels are the mysterious ones, those that date back to the "roots" of House Stark. It just so happens that the crypts are adjacent to, and descend below, Winterfell's godswood. That is not a coincidence.

I have a feeling that whatever is calling to Jon, is calling to him from the roots of Winterfell's heart tree. (The romantic in me wants to believe Lyanna could be down there on life support, like Bloodraven, but GRRM isn't much of a romantic...)

[Black Crow]

Where I tend to disagree with some faithfuls, and some Heretics it would seem ;) is that I believe tptwp to be a magical office, rather than a political one. "...his is the song of ice and fire" sounds like magic to me, rather than a claim to any throne.

What's interesting about the "...his is the song of ice and fire line" is that GRRM has confirmed that the child is Aegon, who is of course the son of Valyrian Rhaegar and Dornish Elia. This rather puts the knockers on the notion that Rhaegar then proceeded to chuck it all in order to create Jon who as the supposed son of Rhaegar [Fire] and Lyanna [ice] is an amalgam of the two and therefore Ice and Fire personified.

Nice theory, if a touch obvious, but there's not a hint of Ice in Elia of Dorne and yet her son is proclaimed to have the Song of Ice and Fire.

Tempting though it might be to attach the term to an individual I'm still therefore of the opinion that "song" as elsewhere in the story [cf the naming of Mance's son] is a metaphor for conflict and that Rhaegar, in the vision, was speaking of Aegon's destiny lying in that conflict, not personifying its resolution.

[Voice]

ACOK, Dany IV:

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"

"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.

"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

[Voice]

You really think this was just about the conflicts Aegon would face? The "prince that was promised" sounds like someone who personifies a solution, quite literally.

[wolfmaid7]

If only the site were more stable. Too bad there isn't a more stable forum in which to discuss the series. :cool4:

Good stuff. :cheers:

Jon is a Stark by upbringing, which is far more important than being a Stark by blood. Theon demonstrates this, though not without some missteps along the way ;)

And if that "one truth" is a lie, I think Jon will be profoundly effected by the realization that his father is not Lord Eddard Stark, but some other man, who is likely of some import.

Agreed. It will alleviate the stress Cat caused for him. I expressed the same sentiment last heresy as well.

Again we agree. And I think this is the point BC is making. I agree Lyanna as a mother will drastically change the way Jon sees Ned and Cat, but it doesn't really change much for him in regards to his connection to Winterfell. He just went from being one Stark's bastard, to another Stark's bastard. And while Ned certainly acted out of honor, he nonetheless showed Jon love. Aside from Cat, Sansa, and Theon, Jon was surrounded by people that loved him.

That is certainly your opinion, but hardly proven.

Otherwise, why does Bran have wolf dreams? Hell, why does Bran have a wolf?

I do not dismiss the maternal lineages of the characters, but clearly magical inheritance flows paternally as well.

Sure. Mothers are important. But Ned is also "important in terms of Bran."

We can spin Arya's quote the other way as well, The man is important too!

Sure, in your opinion. I can see how this lines up in your view of things. But from where I'm sitting, we've no reason to assume magic practices gender discrimination when transmitting capabilites to the next generation...

Here I agree. I think Jon will remain a bastard. And that heeding Tyrion's advice to embrace the title will help him overcome his psychological issues. Though I do not see how bastardy contributes to him magically, or how it would make any magical difference if Jon were trueborn.

I'm not disagreeing that the man is also important...but to keep this in perspective what is Ne'd mother's name again?????

As to why him being a bastard makes a difference...well

Ally to any and everyone or no one.Haven't you heard about bastards being tools of the gods,wielded by no one but them.Jon is the only one thus far who hasn't and probably won't be "schooled" by a player in the game.He is the chaos factor

The idea of magic gifts coming only from the matriarchal line is, at least as far as dragon blood goes, an inaccurate theory. All presently known Targs (Bloodraven excluded) claim their descent from Aegon V, who didn't marry one of his sisters, so Dany's dragon dreams and "dragon blood" can ultimately be traced to the patriarchal line.

I disagree.....Daenes the dreamer....Then ontop of that grafting of the Blackwood blood into the line

[wolfmaid7]

Double post ...and danm it.