Learning to Lead II: The Wrath of the Decision Makers? A re-read project of the Daenerys and Jon chapters from ADWD

[Lummel]

Ladies, Gentlemen and Grumpkins!

Welcome to learning to lead II

The aim of this project remains to re-read the Dany and Jon chapters in ADWD with a view to comparing them as leaders, examining the kinds of challenges they face, how they attempt to deal with them and looking at the common patterns, themes and events that both have to deal with. We are not expecting to see who is 'best' or does better as a leader but to try and see the similarities and differences in their situations and leadership styles.

The re-readings will be done by Butterbumps!, Dr Pepper and myself and we try, despite all the interruptions that life can throw at us, to post two chapters a week. We aren't following the book order but have been alternating between the Daenerys and Jon chapters, however as a special treat we will now be adding the chapters of some of the other POVs in ADWD who come into contact with them to give us another perspective on our leaders, specifically Melisandre, Quentyn and Barristan.

The reread began here and continues below...

All lurkers welcome and posters received with open arms (honest)!

[Lummel]

Summary – the story so far

Daenerys

When we left Daenerys in ASOS she had taken Meereen and was determined to stay there to learn how to rule. In ADWD we learn that fear of the destructive power of her dragons has lead Daenerys to lock two of them up in the basement of her Pyramid while the child eating Drogon flies free somewhere in the countryside.

There is opposition to her rule from the mysterious Sons of the Harpy who are killing her men. Daenerys reacts by taking hostages and having a new corps of soldiers – the Brazen Beasts - formed under the control of the Shavepate with responsibility to patrol the streets. The Shavepate and his men use torture to obtain information about the Sons of the Harpy who never the less remain elusive and continue terrorist outrages against Daenerys' people and freed slaves.

Daenerys begins her rule with a wide ranging programme of social and economic change to wean the city off it's slave dependency by measures like revitalising agriculture, opening up the guilds and encouraging trade. Despite this food supplies remain a concern and it is made clear to her that Quarth and other cities are only interested in the supply of slaves. Daenerys' old friend Xaro argues that civilisation is a pyramid with the elevated lives of an elite at it's apex possible only on the backs of a subjugated slave class. Daenerys rejects this on a gut basis and Xaro declares war over her refusal to leave Meereen.

At the same time Daenerys' court rulings trouble her with there parallels to her own situation both as deprived of her birthright by Robert's rebellion and as conqueror of Meereen and usurper of the traditional rights of the city's ruling elites. However as the Shavepate uses his police powers to torture and intimidate and Daenerys drifts closer to the old elites moving from not regarding them as human to valued companions as confidence in her justices ebbs the number of petitioners at court drops away.

While she dreams of escape from her problems the Green Grace offers a solution - marriage to her kinsman Hizdahr just as the city is blockaded and the news arrives with the Pale Mare that Astapor was fallen to the Yunkai who are now marching on Meereen.

Meanwhile back at the Wall...

Jon

Jon begins his rule of Lord Commander having to compromise with the presence of Stannis at the Wall. Step by step he provides Stannis with a base, supplies, weapons and advice acting as one of Stannis' counsellors. Melisandre warns that he is surrounded by enemies.

Jon is barracked by some of Stannis' men but also from Thorne and Slynt who challenge his authority. Jon starts a programme of reform intending to reopen castles along the Wall first appointing the lowborn Giant to command and then Slynt to another castle. Slynt's repeated refusal forces Jon to assert his authority by decapitating him.

Stannis offers those Wildlings who kneel the right to go through the Wall and be reborn as his subjects – who will then be fed and housed. Bowen Marsh is opposed to this policy.

Jon is by this stage isolating himself from the friends who won him the election, distancing himself from them by word and deed (we already had a taste of this from the Sam chapters in AFFC).

Jon visits the wormways under the Wall with Bowen Marsh and Dolorous Edd. Although the stocks of food look plentiful, Marsh warns that there is not enough to last the winter through and with the political upheaval in the North there is nowhere nearby to get supplies from. It becomes clear that the Builders and the Stewards support sealing the Wall while the Rangers favour keeping the Wall open partly to hunt and partly to be able to engage the enemy to the North. Jon orders rations to be reduced. It is clear that there are not enough men to hold the Wall, nor is there enough food to find those men they have. The Watch seems to be locked into a downward spiral of decline.

Acting as Stannis' adviser Jon is able to convince him to raise an army from the Hill Clans to relive Deepwood Mote which will enable him to compete with Roose as the liberator of the North from the Ironborn and may help him win support from the Northerners.

With Stannis departed Jon turns to the Wildlings as a source of additional manpower. Taking food to their encampment he offers better conditions to those who will serve on the Wall. Bowen opposes this fearing that they may turn on the Watch. Jon reminds him that Mormont was killed by his own trusted men and not by Wildlings.

Some analysis to get the juices flowing...

In broad outline the two stories are progressing in parallel. They want to make changes, they have issues with manpower and food supplies. The wildlings and ex-slaves present similar challenges to both of them. The strategic situation narrows for both. They are both subject to the action of wider forces that reveals that they do not have the freedom of action that they need to make the changes that they want. The consequences of their own actions narrow their freedom of movement. Compromises step by step lead them to positions that they would have preferred to avoid.

In detail there are other similarities. Both are stressed and may be showing signs of depression. Both are isolated. Their advisers are limited and may have their own agendas. There are shared images (the pale mare) but also contrasting symbols (the Great Pyramid vs the Wall).

[Fragile Bird]

Congratulations, Lummel, on post 5,000! And I am absolutely certain every single one was worth reading! :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :cheers: :cheers:

[Tagganaro]

Fantastic thread. I've been trying to keep up as best as possible with the rereads and am finally caught up to date. I'm pretty tired so these thoughts won't be great right now on Dany V...

I continue to be really frustrated with her. I had hoped upon reread I'd understand her position better and be able to better sympathize with her philosophy...but that has not happened.

I think it's very clever to point out her Cersei-ish reactions to her advisors, particularly her reaction to Groleo which was infuriating to me. But at the same time you see the lack of good advice she's getting- Her decision to send Jorah away is biting her now.

I think there's a good parallel to be seen here between Dany and Jon. Both are at a severe lack of good advisors. Dany needs Jorah, and Jon himself thinks that too many good men in the NW have died (and on reread, Bowen Marsh's position seems even more idiotic, I actually believe the head wound he took on the Bridge of Skulls has made him useless). Another parallel that will come up in Jon's next chapter- The refusal to use the power that they have, Jon with Ghost and Dany with her dragons.

To get back to Dany, something that has really struck me is her battle with her identity. She continues to feel the need to save and attend to every freedman, calling them her "children", all the while seemingly forgetting, or not caring, that her own actual children are chained up in the basement so to speak. I understand her reasoning for it, but it doesn't make it good reasoning either. Her Dragons might or might not kill children (interesting that there's no confirmation on Hazzea's cause of death ever I think), but while they're chained up and in fact because they are chained up her freedmen and others continue to die terrible deaths at the hands of the Sons of Harpy and the like.

And it seems very clear upon reread that not one of her advisors can be remotely trusted. It's clear that Reznak is probably the worst offender, but Skahaz is not much better, and the Green Grace and Hizdar (and probably Reznak as well) do seem to be working in conjunction. As was noted earlier, the only person who has seemingly given her good advice was Daario, who basically advised her to create a Red Wedding 2.0. Not to get off topic, but I think this is a major failure on GRRM's part in ADWD- There shouldn't be a point where most of us on reread here are advocating for mass slaughter, but the Mereeneese and really all of Slaver's Bay are written as such ridiculous caricature villains twirling their mustaches that it's hard not to.

Anyway, great work with this thread and I'm looking forward to catching up with you guys who do great work on here.

[Dr. Pepper]

This analysis is of Melisandre's chapter. There is a lot of good and juicy stuff to explore- her visions, her history, her magic. This will be short as I have chosen to ignore many of these things and focus mainly on the parts that deals with Jon and his decision making.

Recap

Melisandre is reading the flames. She cannot see what she's hoping to see, namely a vision of the girl on the grey horse and her king and Azor Ahai, Stannis. Instead, she sees a series of things; the three-eyed crow and Bran, Jon Snow, towers, etc. Devan comes to bring her food and we learn that Melisandre does not require food or sleep. "Rattleshirt" is brought in and we discover that he is Mance. They discuss the glamour and the girl. Mel wants to send him to fetch the girl who she believes is Arya.

On the north side of the wall, three ranger's heads are found on spears. Melisandre tells Jon of some of her visions and then invites him to her chambers so they can discuss more. Jon discovers that Mance is glamoured. Mel proposes Jon send Mance out to seek his sister.

Observations

Many a priest and priestess before her had been brought down by false visions, by seeing what they wished to see instead of what the Lord of Light had sent. A sword without a hilt. A couple of leaders we are currently rereading also have issues with seeing what they wish to see instead of what is actually there.

His huge white direwolf prowled around the shafts, sniffing, then lifted his leg and pissed on the spear that held the head of Black Jack Bulwer. Is Ghost marking his territory, is he saying that whomever left the spears aren't worth piss, is it the spear he's pissing on or can he just not reach Bulwer's head?

Trappings of Power

We've previously discussed both Dany and Jon embracing or eschewing the trappings of power. Where Dany dons the "floppy ears", Jon avoids them. Melisandre notes that Jon was still avoiding moving into the King's Tower and "[t]hat was his mistake, the false humility of youth that is itself a sort of pride. It was never wise for a ruler to eschew the trappings of power, for power itself flows in no small measure from such trappings." There's a fine line Jon must walk. Claiming a room in the King's Tower would be symbolic of his title, but it could also signify his lack of confidence in King Stannis' return. Though Mel believes he's making a mistake in his living quarters, she does acknowledge that he is shrewd enough to not go to her like a supplicant.

Visions and Trust

We spend a good bit of time watching Mel's flame visions with her. She sees a lot of things, but not the things she wants. We learn that she believes "there was no one, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets half-revealed and half-concealed within the sacred flames." When she goes to see the three speared heads, Jon asks her if her visions have revealed anything new. She tells him of the vision of the towers by the sea and immediately agrees that the towers she saw were those at Eastwatch, though her thoughts indicate that she has never seen the specific towers in her vision.

On their walk back to her chambers, Mel ntoes that Jon mistrusts her. This acknowledgement is important as Jon has shown to listen to advice from a variety of people, even when he does not take the advice seriously. He also obviously has a reason to mistrust her since her interpretation of visions aren't also exactly accurate. Still, Mel offers a plan that will both help Jon save his sister and build a level of trust between them.

We learn a lot about Melisandre and her art in this chapter and it's interesting to explore in the wider context of the story. We also learn how an advisor can harm a leader when their intentions and motivations do not align with those of the leader. Mel's visions can aid Jon-the-leader if she interprets them correctly and only if she chooses to be motivated by assisting the Night's Watch in protecting itself and the realm. Jon is understandably wary of what Mel has to offer and I think this is because he knows that her intentions do not completely align with his own. She hasn't yet proven to him that she can offer anything valuable. She seems quite pleased that she has a solution for Jon saving Arya. However, she has probably harmed her cause to gain trust by blatantly lying about killing Mance. Jon will use her when he can, yes, but this initial loss of faith prevents Jon from considering a later vision she had about enemies and daggers.

Jon's conversation with Mel is in stark comparison to Dany's conversation with the Green Grace a few chapters ago. He mistrusts Mel, though is willing to listen to what she has to say to see if any of it is useful. Did Mel ruin her chances at gaining Jon's trust when she lied about burning Mance?

____

And just because I so enjoy thinking about the things Dolorous Edd says:

“I hope the Weeper burned the bodies,” said the dour man, the one called Dolorous Edd. “Elsewise they might come looking for their heads.”

[Dacie]

Great summary Dr. Pepper and thanks Lummel for the re-cap!

A few thoughts:

Melisandre is so determined to make Jon trust her that she passes off the towers in her vision as Eastwatch because that's what Jon wants to hear. This coupled with the glamour of Mance makes me as a reader not trust her. And why is she so determined to win Jon specifically to her cause?

(On a side note, I really love the idea that Bloodraven is screwing with her visions)

When Mance enters her chamber, she notes that the ruby at her neck pulses in response to it's slave. Interesting choice of words. I wonder is she referring to Mance or the ruby he is wearing?

Finally, we can go back to Varys' riddle once again. Mel says that she always has two guards around her even though she doesn't need them in order to display power. Mance notes that the guards Jon has stationed outside his room are a joke, and Mel wishes he would move to the King's quarters. If Jon would have been willing to show a bit more power, would his brothers have respected/feared him a bit more?

[Harlaw's Book]

Regarding the trappings of power/floppy ears, I'm doing the read AFFC and ADWD concurrently. I'm at the chapter where Cersei allows the Faith to rearm itself. The High Septon greets Cersei while he is scrubbing the floor. He mentions that he sold his crown, rings, and other valuables to buy food. Why is the High Septon more successful than our heroes without needing the floppy ears?

Also I find the High Septon selling the crown particular interesting when thinking about Dany and the issue of sacrifice. We know Dany is willing to make personal sacrifices. However, in ACOK Dany is unwilling to sell her crown because she credits the moment where Viserys sold their mother's crown as the moment that broke him. The unwillingness to sell the crown makes me wonder how much Dany is actually ready to sacrifice especially when considering the marriage to Hizadar might not be the ultimate sacrifice if Dany does take multiple husbands. Sorry to go off on a tangent.

[kissdbyfire]

Regarding the trappings of power/floppy ears, I'm doing the read AFFC and ADWD concurrently. I'm at the chapter where Cersei allows the Faith to rearm itself. The High Septon greets Cersei while he is scrubbing the floor. He mentions that he sold his crown, rings, and other valuables to buy food. Why is the High Septon more successful than our heroes without needing the floppy ears?

Maybe because being a poor, humble hard-working priest is the High Septon's 'floppy ears'?

[Harlaw's Book]

Maybe because being a poor, humble hard-working priest is the High Septon's 'floppy ears'?

I can see that as being floppy ears. However, isn't being a poor, humble hard-working priest similar to how Mel thinks how Jon is acting? And she thinks that is a bad idea.

[Dacie]

I can see that as being floppy ears. However, isn't being a poor, humble hard-working priest similar to how Mel thinks how Jon is acting? And she thinks that is a bad idea.

I think that it's a case of what "floppy ears" are appropriate for the given situation. It serves the priests cause to appear as a humble, hard-working servant uninterested in the trappings of wealth and power. However, in Jon's situation a demonstration of a bit more power may have garnered him a little more respect and/or fear.

[Lummel]

Congratulations, Lummel, on post 5,000! And I am absolutely certain every single one was worth reading!

That would depend on your attitude to politically partisan slash fic drawing on the UK political scene for at least a few hundred posts! Quite a few of my posts are recommending that people read the Dunk and Egg stories. Those are worth reading.

...And it seems very clear upon reread that not one of her advisors can be remotely trusted. It's clear that Reznak is probably the worst offender, but Skahaz is not much better, and the Green Grace and Hizdar (and probably Reznak as well) do seem to be working in conjunction...

Interesting. The suspicion that the Green Grace is the Harpy is a strong one, the Shavepate I agree looks to be out for himself the more you read those chapters but Reznak? Why do you think he's the worst? His outburst about the uncontrollable dragons in court is suspicious and he is clearly vocal in his support of the old elites but what else is there that leaves you thinking that he's the worst of the three?

...Visions and Trust

We spend a good bit of time watching Mel's flame visions with her. She sees a lot of things, but not the things she wants. We learn that she believes "there was no one, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets half-revealed and half-concealed within the sacred flames." When she goes to see the three speared heads, Jon asks her if her visions have revealed anything new. She tells him of the vision of the towers by the sea and immediately agrees that the towers she saw were those at Eastwatch, though her thoughts indicate that she has never seen the specific towers in her vision...We learn a lot about Melisandre and her art in this chapter and it's interesting to explore in the wider context of the story. We also learn how an advisor can harm a leader when their intentions and motivations do not align with those of the leader. Mel's visions can aid Jon-the-leader if she interprets them correctly and only if she chooses to be motivated by assisting the Night's Watch in protecting itself and the realm. Jon is understandably wary of what Mel has to offer and I think this is because he knows that her intentions do not completely align with his own. She hasn't yet proven to him that she can offer anything valuable...

____

And just because I so enjoy thinking about the things Dolorous Edd says:

“I hope the Weeper burned the bodies,” said the dour man, the one called Dolorous Edd. “Elsewise they might come looking for their heads.”

Melisandre first mentions that threat to Jon way back in Jon I. But I find that contrast between her doubts and her need to project certainty fantastic. The image of the confident assured woman is part of her floppy ears. The doubting, uncertain woman stays hidden inside. It echos nicely what we see with Daenerys where she is eaten up by Quaithe's words and the attempt to interpret them. Is Jon wise to avoid that source of doubt?

...When Mance enters her chamber, she notes that the ruby at her neck pulses in response to it's slave. Interesting choice of words. I wonder is she referring to Mance or the ruby he is wearing?...

Yes that seems a very strong word to use. Takes us back to Butterbumps!' idea about slavery and freedom being two central ideas in the book.

...Why is the High Septon more successful than our heroes without needing the floppy ears?

Also I find the High Septon selling the crown particular interesting when thinking about Dany and the issue of sacrifice... in ACOK Dany is unwilling to sell her crown because she credits the moment where Viserys sold their mother's crown as the moment that broke him...

I think that is a great question and really appropriate to our theme. I haven't got an answer though. But that won't stop me from typing something about it.

My first thought was that the High Septon and the Lord Commander could both draw on the strength of their institutions. That because these were so well established and the roles that everybody had to play in the organisations so ingrained that those floppy ears weren't needed anymore. Jon doesn't need the ceremonial raven to be flapping around him all the time for his brothers to respect him as lord commander, just as the Pope is still the Pope no matter what he wears.

But this thought is probably wrong.

And here's why. The Sworn Sword (Dunk and Egg II) we learn that one of the reasons that people supported a Blackfyre to be King was because he had been given the King's valyrian steel sword. This was seen as a sign that despite his bastard birth he was more inherently Kingly than the round shouldered, pot bellied Daeron.

"Daemon was the better man. The old king saw it too. He gave the sword to Daemon. Blackfyre, the sword of Aegon the Conquerer, the blade that every Targaryen king had wielded since the conquest...he put that sword in Daemon's hand the day he knighted him, a boy of twelve."

"My father says that was because Daemon was a swordsman, and Daeron never was," said Egg. "Why give a horse to a man who cannot ride? The sword was not the kingdom, he says."

The old knight's hand jerked so hard that wine spilled from his silver cup. "Your father is a fool."

The sword was the kingdom and that gift was seen as a symbolic transfer of power by enough lords and knights to ensure a civil war...

But Daenerys' floppy ears are a little different from the old family crown. With her floppy ears she is trying to show the old Ghiscari elites that she is one of them, that she associates with them and that she values them and their culture. The Crown I think would be a symbol of the continuity and tradition of the targaryen line - you can imagine the feelings associated with selling it. I'm tempted now to fall back on Kissedbyfire's answer...

[Maia]

I have just caught up with this thread, and I must say - gread read!

I am surprised that nobody commented on this quote from Dany III:

Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world…

I mean, this is some strong AA imagery there. Even if it is, currently "a sword without a hilt"

And speaking of Jon's chapter where he talks with Sigorn, I have to say that I am a bit miffed that Bolton seems to be slated for extinction, because it would have been such a powerful thing if Jon _had_ to work with a true enemy of the Starks in the service of greater goal. If he had to really live the whole "past washed away" maxim.

A true measure of Jon's personal growth - would he be able to put well-founded personal hatred aside?

Early on in the series, I have hoped that Jon might have to cooperate with Tywin, but now that we have seen Bolton, he could also be very interesting.

I mean, Stannis is a pretty fascinating ally, but he and Jon share the same enemies, so it makes it a bit too easy.

Re: floppy ears, I do think that Jon is making a mistake here. He does not look the part of LC and he is doing some very contraversial stuff. He should have balanced it with customary trappings of power, to smooth things over for other NW members.

Particularly since in his case those trappings don't bear any ideological message inimical to his goal.

[Winterfellian]

Thanks Dr. Pepper for the great review!I haven't had time to reread the chapter so I will comment more later.

I think Harlaw's book question is very interesting.

I can see that as being floppy ears. However, isn't being a poor, humble hard-working priest similar to how Mel thinks how Jon is acting? And she thinks that is a bad idea.

Like Alysanne wrote, I agree it will depend on the setting but I will also add right timing or if you belong in the setting where you are trying to lead using the ''floppy ears'' and are in the right place at the right time.

For example, Dany wears the queen version of the ''floppy ears''. She wears Tokars and keeps a general appereance of grandeur around her persona to try and attract the dissident factions of Mereen's nobility. Has this paid off for her? I think not. Now that she needs the whole city on her side because of the possible war they won't back her up anymore than they did at the beggining unless they put one of their own as her King, Hizdahr. If anything, her decision to let them dictate so much of her actions can offer a message of weakness. This is, I feel because at the end of the day, she doesn't belong there.

Am glad you brought up the High Septom because is a very interesting case. I think he is in the right place in the right time. First he is with his peers, followers of the seven all of them. Also, his rising to power coincides with a very defining moment in history in Westeros fill with despair and angst. Dark times such as Westeros is facing right now can generate the favorable conditions for the rising to power of many individuals. He is using this as the basis of his humble behavior /floppy ears.

Had this behavior worked five years ago in the time of the story when there was peace? I don't think so.

[kissdbyfire]

I think that it's a case of what "floppy ears" are appropriate for the given situation. It serves the priests cause to appear as a humble, hard-working servant uninterested in the trappings of wealth and power. However, in Jon's situation a demonstration of a bit more power may have garnered him a little more respect and/or fear.

True. But isn't it a question of 'damned if you do damned if you don't'? I mean, had Jon moved to Lord Commander's tower or the King's Tower, he could be seen by detractors as 'Lord Snow', the arrogant bastard who thinks he is better than everyone, no?

[Dacie]

True. But isn't it a question of 'damned if you do damned if you don't'? I mean, had Jon moved to Lord Commander's tower or the King's Tower, he could be seen by detractors as 'Lord Snow', the arrogant bastard who thinks he is better than everyone, no?

Oh definitely! It is almost certainly a no win situation. I don't know if there is a middle ground that would appease both sides.

[tze]

Finally, we can go back to Varys' riddle once again. Mel says that she always has two guards around her even though she doesn't need them in order to display power. Mance notes that the guards Jon has stationed outside his room are a joke, and Mel wishes he would move to the King's quarters. If Jon would have been willing to show a bit more power, would his brothers have respected/feared him a bit more?

I think the main problem here is that Melisandre is jumping over a very important question: what, exactly, are the trappings of power? She's assuming that her personal understanding of "the trappings of power" is universal, that these "trappings" remain constant across cultures. But we can see that that isn't actually the case. Jon isn't respected by Stannis's men, and his lack of southern-style "trappings of power" probably played into that---but he is respected by Stannis (a man who doesn't give respect easily), and I'd argue that he very much seems to be respected by his own men---every order he gives is ultimately obeyed, even to the point of letting the hated wildlings pass the Wall. The Marsh conspiracy never struck me as the actions of men who didn't respect or fear Jon---their incredibly desperate measures seem to indicate that Jon was far too powerful a force on the Wall to be removed in any other way. It's Stannis's soldiers that were calling Jon "boy", not the Night's Watchmen. If Jon had had himself announced by a crapload of titles every time he walked into the mess hall, or started waving Longclaw around every time he made a speech, the Watchmen would have been laughing their asses off. The wildlings, too.

The NIght's Watch chooses its own leaders (so the Lord Commander has already cleared the first hurdle of gaining his men's allegience merely by being elected), and it is a very cash-and-manpower-poor institution operating in a very remote and harsh environment. Wearing fine clothes, playing petty power games, and being incredibly wasteful (both in terms of finances and manpower) are all things that are expected of a ruler in the south. But every guardsman Jon has following him around like a duckling is one less man capable of walking the Wall or performing support services to the rest of the Watch, and the Watch doesn't have any men to spare. (And even though I'm sure half a dozen or so men could have been pulled away from other duties to guard Jon---in Jon's eyes, what message does that really send to his fellow Watchmen?) If Jon was living in luxury in the King's Tower, eating the choicest food and surrounded by more comfort than anyone else in the Watch, would his men have respected him more? I'd argue that they'd have respected him far, far less. If he'd surrounded himself with guards everywhere he went, would the wildlings have viewed him with respect? They'd probably have seen him as weak. According to Will, Waymar Royce had fine clothes, an expensive sword, and came from an ancient House----but he points out that none of those things stopped the men from laughing at him in their cups. And it's worth noting that Jon actually has to step in and stop Night's Watchmen from laughing at Melisandre herself---those trappings of power weren't actually gaining her the respect she thought, in the eyes of the Watchmen.

Mance notes that the guards Jon has outside his door won't stop an attack, but I sincerely doubt that Jon ever thought they would. Those guards seem to act more as buffer zones than as actual protection (their purpose is just to prevent people from just barging in on Jon without any warning). Mance himself had guards outside his own tent back in ASOS, and I doubt he really intended them as personal protection.

But Daenerys' floppy ears are a little different from the old family crown. With her floppy ears she is trying to show the old Ghiscari elites that she is one of them, that she associates with them and that she values them and their culture. The Crown I think would be a symbol of the continuity and tradition of the targaryen line - you can imagine the feelings associated with selling it. I'm tempted now to fall back on Kissedbyfire's answer...

I think the Targaryen "crown" issue is interesting because we know, from various descriptions GRRM gave of the previous Targaryen kings, that not every king wore his predecessor's crown (unlike, for example, the Kings in the North). The throne itself seemed to be the important part, not the crown (the opposite as in the North). It was apparently perfectly acceptible for a new King to have a brand-new crown made while the Targs ruled, and the same thing seems to be true of the Baratheons/Lannisters, but you certainly never see anyone considering making a new throne.

Moreover, I don't think we've ever been given a description of the crowns worn by Targaryen queens. Was Queen Rhaella's crown a family heirloom, something that had been passed down from previous Queens? Or had it been made just for her? If the former, then the sale of the crown would have implications for the continuity and tradition of the Targaryen line. But if it's the latter, then not so much. And given the way Cersei acts (she has no trouble having new crowns made, and she never mentions coveting a specific crown worn by any Targaryen queen), I think the latter is more likely than the former. Viserys sold their mother's crown, and his distress might have come from the fact that it was their mother's, and less that it was a crown (especially given that Viserys, being a man, would never have worn that particular crown regardless). That Dany might not understand this could be explained by the fact that she never knew their mother, didn't know what crowns were worn by what ancestor(s), and simply didn't understand the implications there.

Dany wears the tokar . . . but she smashed the Harpy Throne, she expects Ghiscari men to shave off their fanciful hairdos (which she finds absurd but clearly the Ghiscari do not), she does not even consider converting to the religion of the Graces (why it never occurred to her that this might just piss the Green Grace off, I've never understood), and her "court" consists of foreigners (Missadei, Barristan, Daario, Irri/Jhiqui, etc.) and a grand total of 2, count them TWO, Ghiscari noblemen, noblemen whose exact status in the nobility we're never given (for all we know, the Shavepate and Reznak could come from the Meereenese equivalents of House Baelish and House Frey). This is not to say that wearing the tokar was a poor choice---rather, it's that the whole point of wearing the tokar was to send a signal to the nobility that she wanted to integrate with them, but without taking extra steps in addition to the tokar, the tokar went from "first step in integration" to "empty step in failed integration".

Moreover, was merely wearing a tokar, without any thought as to the composition of that tokar, really sending the message Dany intended? Not to get ahead of this re-read, but Dany makes a very interesting comment when she's looking out at the nobility in the fighting pits:

Hizdahr’s kin of the ancient line of Loraq seemed to favor tokars of purple and indigo and lilac, whilst those of Pahl were striped in pink and white. The envoys from Yunkai were all in yellow . . .

We know House colors are very important in Westeros. Wearing black means something very different in Braavos than it does in Westeros. Dany notes that certain Houses in Meereen seem to favor specific tokar colors, which could be a hint that clothing color has social dimensions here, as it does in other places we've seen. Dany never seemed to see any importance in the color of her choice of tokar---but the Meereenese might have felt differently.

[Lummel]

Yes agreed. For all we know Daenerys' Tokar wearing is the equivalent of going to France wearing a beret, stripy jersey and a string of onions and thinking you'll be taken for a french person or going to Scotland and wearing a kilt all the time.

You can't pick and choose these kinds of symbols out of the chocolate box - they operate together in a context. In Daenerys' case she is sending out very mixed messages. Jon is more successful here I think because the North is his place and the Starks have a place on the Wall. His style is by and large acceptable to the men. I'm sure there is room for improvement but it looks broadly in line with what we saw of Old Lord Mormont's style.

[Winterfellian]

Read the chapter!

Since Jon's meeting with Mel is in parallel with Dany's meeting with GG, I thought a make a few points keeping this in mind. I posted on the last thread that I feel Dany and Jon's path are starting to diverge in a fashion in this point of the story. Their stories have so far have both parallels and contrasts but the number of contrasts are starting to increase as Jon is settling more into his command while Danny is becoming more diffident in hers. I think what we are starting to see is the following: they both started off as 2 young inexperienced people about to start a social reformation (economic also in Dany's case) as well as their first time as leaders. However the foundations on which they set themselves up to start their command are entirely different. While Jon is thrusting on his knowledge of the north (knowledge both acquired and that he's striving to acquire) Dany had to rely much of of hers in her own views of things (somewhat obtuse where it concerns the slavers and without the benefit of seeking additional information herself). This different foundations are starting to manifest themselves more pronouncely now. Their meetings with both the Green Grace and Melissandre are a good example of this.

Putting on the ''floppy ears'' is not enough but how do you conduct yourself is equally important I feel. In Dany's meeting with the GG, the GG is clearly stating her stand as the one who has the upper hand over Dany because of her knowledge and understanding of the Ghiscari. Same with Melissandre and Jon; Mel is trying to use the knowledge gained through her visions as leverage over Jon. Their reactions are completely contrasting. I feel Dany does not realize what GG is trying to do (mostly because she seems to thrust her) and so accepts the GG as in charge to the point of spilling important secrets to her during the meeting while Jon, even if he doesn't realize what Mel is trying to do, he doesn't relinquish his control and let Melissandre be in charge. When Jon ask for her to walk with him her first thought is ''at last''. I find it ironic that she doesn't think much of the way Jon approaches the trappings of power, yet she is the one who seems to be at his call and trying to find ways to attract his attention; even recognizes that ''He does not love me, will never love, but he will make use of me''.

Another thing, we know that both Jon and Dany have opposit stances concerning prophecies. So far there seems to be a measure of truth in the prophecies offered to them by Quaithe and Melissande (the pale mare, the girl in grey). However, this chapter of Mel gives us a very interesting insight about looking into the future:

Many a priest and priestess before her had been brought down by false visions, by seeing what they wished to see instead of what the Lord of Light had sent

In other words, the truth behind a prophecy can be dependant on the ability of the one reading the future. If so, can we assume that Quaithe's visions or prophecies are also conditioned by this principle? After all, she also predicted about the coming of the Griffin and this didn't happen in ADWD.Does this make Jon more suspicious approach concerning Mel's warnings wiser than Dany's more thrusting one or is it the other way around?

[Teal'c]

Read the chapter!

Since Jon's meeting with Mel is in parallel with Dany's meeting with GG, I thought a make a few points keeping this in mind. I posted on the last thread that I feel Dany and Jon's path are starting to diverge in a fashion in this point of the story. Their stories have so far have both parallels and contrasts but the number of contrasts are starting to increase as Jon is settling more into his command while Danny is becoming more diffident in hers. I think what we are starting to see is the following: they both started off as 2 young inexperienced people about to start a social reformation (economic also in Dany's case) as well as their first time as leaders. However the foundations on which they set themselves up to start their command are entirely different. While Jon is thrusting on his knowledge of the north (knowledge both acquired and that he's striving to acquire) Dany had to rely much of of hers in her own views of things (somewhat obtuse where it concerns the slavers and without the benefit of seeking additional information herself). This different foundations are starting to manifest themselves more pronouncely now. Their meetings with both the Green Grace and Melissandre are a good example of this.

Putting on the ''floppy ears'' is not enough but how do you conduct yourself is equally important I feel. In Dany's meeting with the GG, the GG is clearly stating her stand as the one who has the upper hand over Dany because of her knowledge and understanding of the Ghiscari. Same with Melissandre and Jon; Mel is trying to use the knowledge gained through her visions as leverage over Jon. Their reactions are completely contrasting. I feel Dany does not realize what GG is trying to do (mostly because she seems to thrust her) and so accepts the GG as in charge to the point of spilling important secrets to her during the meeting while Jon, even if he doesn't realize what Mel is trying to do, he doesn't relinquish his control and let Melissandre be in charge. When Jon ask for her to walk with him her first thought is ''at last''. I find it ironic that she doesn't think much of the way Jon approaches the trappings of power, yet she is the one who seems to be at his call and trying to find ways to attract his attention; even recognizes that ''He does not love me, will never love, but he will make use of me''.

Another thing, we know that both Jon and Dany have opposit stances concerning prophecies. So far there seems to be a measure of truth in the prophecies offered to them by Quaithe and Melissande (the pale mare, the girl in grey). However, this chapter of Mel gives us a very interesting insight about looking into the future:

In other words, the truth behind a prophecy can be dependant on the ability of the one reading the future. If so, can we assume that Quaithe's visions or prophecies are also conditioned by this principle? After all, she also predicted about the coming of the Griffin and this didn't happen in ADWD.Does this make Jon more suspicious approach concerning Mel's warnings wiser than Dany's more thrusting one or is it the other way around?

Two short additions:

I think Jon is also embarking on a new economy for the Night's Watch. He is borrowing from the Iron Bank to buy more food, where in the past the NW has gathered its own food through hunting and the crops tithed from The Gift.

Regarding prophesies, I think that since Quaithe's information seems to be gathered through the glass candles, her predictions are due to farsightedness in DISTANCE, whereas Melisandre seems to be farsighted across TIME. Each has a different inherent risk for misinformation. Since Quaithe can't see future events, when people change course she ends up being wrong, example Griff and YG turning aside to Westeros. For Melisandre, who does see future events, the risk for error is in misinterpretation or mistake through lack of context, example she is predicting a cataclysm at Eastwatch while simultaneously acknowledging the towers she sees do not look like Eastwatch.

[Blisscraft]

When I read this chapter I was struck by how much Mel thinks she needs Jon and how she sees him. He exercises restraint. She compares him to Stannis and knows they are very much alike. Both are afterborn/bastard with a strong eldest/legitimate son as a yardstick for their successes or failures. Unbelievers by nature, mistrustful, suspicious their only gods are "honor and duty." Restraint: She notes Jon won't come to her. She must go to him. Like Stannis, Mel has to win Jon over, unlike Devan who is crazy about her or Mance who is her "slave." She isn't used to having to chase men. Men chase her. Men need her; men want her. Although, much of what they want of her is an illusion.

Restraint becomes its own "trapping" of power. As with the new High Septon, Jon does his job with less than he needs. Mel sees this as a "false humility of youth is a sort of pride." False humility at any age is a sort of pride.

As for Dany, the only thing she has restrained so far are two of her dragons. She doesn't hold back anything else, especially when someone "wakes her dragon."

I will have to continue later. . .