Heresy 16

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 16

The Song of Ice and Fire is rightly acclaimed as a masterpiece, not just of fantasy but as a work of classic literature destined to rank with and, in the opinion of many of us, surpass Tolkein’s Lord of the Rings.

Its also an immensely complex, multi-layered story and the purpose of the Heresy threads is to try and figure out what’s really going on.

Therefore here you will find (amongst other esoteric discussions) the proposition that the story is not as straightforward as it once appeared; that there is a link between the Starks and the power of Winter, ie; the Others, and that they in turn far from being cold dead things are another of the old races, something akin to the Sidhe of Celtic legend (we do a lot of Celtic and other folklore on here), and that the Starks will in the end prevail not only over Ice as Kings of Winter, but over Fire as well, in order to restore the shattered balance between the two.

Previous heresies for reference:

Heresy five (with links to earlier heresies),

Heresy six, (inc. the complete Old Nan’s Tales)

Heresy seven,

Heresy eight,

Heresy nine,

Heresy ten,

Heresy eleven,

heresy twelve

heresy thirteen

http://asoiaf.wester...8801-heresy-14/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/69643-heresy-15/

A healthy dose of Heresy can be good for you.

[Black Crow]

And just a very quick catch-up before I go to work for those coming fresh to the game or simply trying hard to keep up.

A lot of the current discussion started with an email by GRRM in which he said 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.'

Its quite rightly been objected that GRRM was simply providing a visual reference but when we actually googled the Sidhe, far too many things slotted into place - not least the Bael/Tam Lin connection and Craster's changeling sons - to be dismissed as co-incidence. The Sidhe were what GRRM had in his mind.

There are also a number of textual clues to the Stark connection with the Sidhe; the blue roses, Bran Stark the Night’s King and the Queen of Faerie, the changeling story of Bael the Bard and Jon’s own connection with blue roses just to name a few.

There's also an interesting catch that Winter may have entered Sansa and lively discussion as to whether Bran's greenseeing comes from his Tully mother.

Then there’s the Horn of Winter, which is clearly there to summon or bind the Sidhe in some way, whether its blow it three times and we'll recognise you as owng allegiance to us, or blow it three times and we'll recognise you as a prince of the royal blood. Either way and whatever the detail, finding, repairing and blowing it is going to be incredibly important in the end - and so too perhaps is stopping Mance.

Its all getting rather interesting.

[alienarea]

Have we ever discussed Mance?

The way ASoIaF is build it uses recurring themes that build up through the books. I see a recurring theme with the Nightwatch deserter trying to find answers north of the wall for the greater good (???). The Night's King, Bloodraven, Mance Rayder, Jon Snow, possibly Benjen as well.

Not sure if this leads anywhere.

[Lannister Hamster]

I'm not buying into the whole the Wights are creating by the White Walkers warging into them.

In the books there always seems to be some sort of precedent for something else happening.

Beric Dondarrion and Cat, in my opinion, were not warged when they came back to life there was some type of spell placed into them - and they decide to do their mission.

Coldhands was dead and is now 'alive' and is doing his mission - getting Bran to the Children of the Forest.

And now the kicker - Qyburn has bought something back to life as well - (what the theorists are calling Gregonfranker or something) and that was also some type of necromanic spell.

So where exactly is the evidence in the book that the Wights are warged and nothing more than zombies brought back to life by magic?

[DragonSpawn]

On the subject of Mance: Is he a tool or is he a legend?

Osha had heard of the 3EC - so i'm assuming Bloodraven has dreamwalked through enough Wildling dreams for his existance to be known. To those who follow the old gods this would be of some comfort. But would a character like Mance be more closely linked with Bloodraven as both have left the NW? BR still tells Bran that he is trying to save the realm - but this was something he couldn't do as a brother of the NW - it had to be done by leaving the Watch. Although his motive is questionable, it appears Mance is trying to save the Wildlings - which we are often reminded are also Men. So in a sense both have left the Watch and ultimately ended up protecting the realms of men. Enough common ground to build a friendship? - also the singer link... BR surrounded by singers and Mance being fairly talented when it comes to singing? I bring this up as Mance has ultimately become as big a deal as Daenerys... While she is charging around the free cities ridding the world of slavery and bringing them all to heel... Mance has already done this... uniting most of the Wildlings north of the Wall. Sometimes with bribes.. sometimes with wine.. sometimes with song... sometimes with steel...

So we have:

North of the Wall - United by Mance Rayder

Free Cities - United by Daenerys (or soon to be - hopefully)

But being a Sheppherd and rounding up your flock and guiding them down the right path is a Targaryen instinct... Mance is not a Targaryen to our knowledge... so it stands to reason that it is not Mance who has been leading the Wildlings... it is actually Bloodraven guiding Mance? This means that all the rounding up of the civilisations across the world is being lead by Targaryens... and i find that makes sense and is oddly reassuring... it fits the prophecy and also would make sense if Bloodraven was using Mance to round up the wildlings for Jon Snow - as one of the heads...

But what about Westeros? It's tempting to think of Jon or Dany... But what about Tyrion?

He's fond of Cripples, Bastards and Broken things.

Bran = Cripple / Jon = Bastard / Westeros = Broken Things

Who has seen more than Tyrion? His mis-coloured eyes hint at an ability to see both the light and the dark, but is clever enough to manage his own feelings and choices, to do the right thing...

He has pissed off the Wall, and became a friend to the Watch, moved by their pleas for assistance and forming a bond of friendship with Jon Snow. He's become known as the 'giant come among us' thanks to Aemon. And now he's married to Sansa - Bound to Winter... Tyrion has travelled from The Wall all the way to the Free Cities ... and no doubt has even further to go before he can hope to return. He's been involved in most plot-twists and in almost every story-line. For someone who is not a green-seer he knows as much as anyone can hope to know - and what is his most dominant trait? - A Sheppherd and a guide... trying to unite the mountain clans with bribery... bringing Highgarden and Dorne into the mix with marriage, becoming friends with the Wall... providing guidance while he was the Kings hand... and even guiding Aegon and Jon Snow... saving Jorah and Penny and bringing the second sons into the mix as well... admittedly - despite the apparent friendship with Varys and Illiryio his moves with Aegon seem to be to disrupt their plans... given that Varys is a disruptor - this would naturally put him at odds with Tyrions Sheppherding instincts...

Is this Sheppherd instinct enough to show Tyrion as the secret missing Targ? Regardless of suspicions around Aerys and Joanna? Is Mance acting under his own guidance or has he taken instruction from Bloodraven?

[alienarea]

On the subject of Mance: Is he a tool or is he a legend?

Osha had heard of the 3EC - so i'm assuming Bloodraven has dreamwalked through enough Wildling dreams for his existance to be known. To those who follow the old gods this would be of some comfort. But would a character like Mance be more closely linked with Bloodraven as both have left the NW? BR still tells Bran that he is trying to save the realm - but this was something he couldn't do as a brother of the NW - it had to be done by leaving the Watch. Although his motive is questionable, it appears Mance is trying to save the Wildlings - which we are often reminded are also Men. So in a sense both have left the Watch and ultimately ended up protecting the realms of men. Enough common ground to build a friendship? - also the singer link... BR surrounded by singers and Mance being fairly talented when it comes to singing? I bring this up as Mance has ultimately become as big a deal as Daenerys... While she is charging around the free cities ridding the world of slavery and bringing them all to heel... Mance has already done this... uniting most of the Wildlings north of the Wall. Sometimes with bribes.. sometimes with wine.. sometimes with song... sometimes with steel...

So we have:

North of the Wall - United by Mance Rayder

Free Cities - United by Daenerys (or soon to be - hopefully)

But being a Sheppherd and rounding up your flock and guiding them down the right path is a Targaryen instinct... Mance is not a Targaryen to our knowledge... so it stands to reason that it is not Mance who has been leading the Wildlings... it is actually Bloodraven guiding Mance? This means that all the rounding up of the civilisations across the world is being lead by Targaryens... and i find that makes sense and is oddly reassuring... it fits the prophecy and also would make sense if Bloodraven was using Mance to round up the wildlings for Jon Snow - as one of the heads...

But what about Westeros? It's tempting to think of Jon or Dany... But what about Tyrion?

He's fond of Cripples, Bastards and Broken things.

Bran = Cripple / Jon = Bastard / Westeros = Broken Things

Who has seen more than Tyrion? His mis-coloured eyes hint at an ability to see both the light and the dark, but is clever enough to manage his own feelings and choices, to do the right thing...

He has pissed off the Wall, and became a friend to the Watch, moved by their pleas for assistance and forming a bond of friendship with Jon Snow. He's become known as the 'giant come among us' thanks to Aemon. And now he's married to Sansa - Bound to Winter... Tyrion has travelled from The Wall all the way to the Free Cities ... and no doubt has even further to go before he can hope to return. He's been involved in most plot-twists and in almost every story-line. For someone who is not a green-seer he knows as much as anyone can hope to know - and what is his most dominant trait? - A Sheppherd and a guide... trying to unite the mountain clans with bribery... bringing Highgarden and Dorne into the mix with marriage, becoming friends with the Wall... providing guidance while he was the Kings hand... and even guiding Aegon and Jon Snow... saving Jorah and Penny and bringing the second sons into the mix as well... admittedly - despite the apparent friendship with Varys and Illiryio his moves with Aegon seem to be to disrupt their plans... given that Varys is a disruptor - this would naturally put him at odds with Tyrions Sheppherding instincts...

Is this Sheppherd instinct enough to show Tyrion as the secret missing Targ? Regardless of suspicions around Aerys and Joanna? Is Mance acting under his own guidance or has he taken instruction from Bloodraven?

I don't think that Mance is guided by Bloodraven. Bloodraven left the NW and joined the CotF. Mance left the NW and joined the wildlings. Benjen left the NW and joined the Others ... just kidding. Maybe.

The CotF don't care what Mance is up to with the wildlings, though the giants "our brothers and our bane" are included in his trek.

Question: this sounds like the giants betrayed/sold out the CotF at some point in time. Do we know when? I'm speculating it is again linked to the Night's King and the Horn of Joramun ...

[DragonSpawn]

I don't think that Mance is guided by Bloodraven. Bloodraven left the NW and joined the CotF. Mance left the NW and joined the wildlings. Benjen left the NW and joined the Others ... just kidding. Maybe.

Lol - you could be right - with three notorious men from the NW each leaving to work with the Singers / Wildlings and Others... but that makes me think of a kind of secret service to the police of the NW... the undercover crew... but Mance's helm is a bit of a clue isn't it?

"and on his head was a great bronze-and-iron helm with raven wings at either temple."

[alienarea]

Lol - you could be right - with three notorious men from the NW each leaving to work with the Singers / Wildlings and Others... but that makes me think of a kind of secret service to the police of the NW... the undercover crew... but Mance's helm is a bit of a clue isn't it?

"and on his head was a great bronze-and-iron helm with raven wings at either temple."

Forgot about the helm. So we have the CotF as the priests, the wildlings as the people and the Others as the soldiers of the north? And Jon needs to unite them with a little help from Bran to battle Dany?

[DragonSpawn]

Forgot about the helm. So we have the CotF as the priests, the wildlings as the people and the Others as the soldiers of the north? And Jon needs to unite them with a little help from Bran to battle Dany?

To battle Dany or not to battle Dany... that is the question! :D

Suppose this depends on who you think the three heads are... if they will all arrive with Dany on three dragons or if they will arrive at the same time but seperately etc etc... but as there are so many red herrings and options its almost impossible to speculate down this path... Mance is about the only clue we have from the North ... uniting the free-folk... but he has been taken under Melisandres control - and this makes me wonder if that was where his destiny ended? The Wildings / Others cannot be lead by someone under the control of fire... The ideal leader would be someone who is a Dragon (weapon of the enemy) but turned to Ice... If this has been forseen by Bloodraven then the final action is to break Jon free of his vows and unite him with the Wildlings and the Others.... a combination of a letter... written by the secret agent Mance... delivered by one of Bloodraven and Brans Ravens... and then the unnusual stabbing of Jon Snow while his brothers cried... it Reeks of divine intervention...

ETA: ...and let's not forget - the Wildlings follow strength... but who defeated Mance Rayder? Jon Snow or Stannis? Could it be that Stannis is the Dragon turned Ice... as Cersei remarks: "What is Stannis if not the Stranger come to judge us all?" Varys: "There is no creature on earth half so terrifying as a truly just man", Tywin: .... "This is Stannis Baratheon. The man will fight to the bitter end and then some". and Donal Noye: "Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends." - Is Iron not used to control the dead?

[Alarum]

Speaking on behalf of lurkers transitioning into contributors, I'd like to point out that about 90% of the content on the boards (particularly in the General forum) is a heaping mass of intolerable drivel. I don't care who everyone's favorite badass is, I don't want to know what happens in WoW until I read it as a whole, I agree that r+l=j without having to eternally rehash the evidence and implications (that really couldn't have been settled in less than 200 posts?), I'm offended by the people who are offended by the books' gratuity, and I'm a bit alienated by the worshipers of the alter of Sansa (although I have come to appreciate her character a bit more upon re-reads). This leaves a curious reader like myself with few places to go for intellectual extraction of the series' various nebula and no patience to simply sit on my hands for the next five years waiting for the next issue. I feel quite fortunate to find this haven for thoughtful, considerate discussion and marvel at the array of multinational perspectives intermingling so harmoniously and only hope I can do my part to contribute to the conversation.

[Uncat]

And Uncat misses the train, again. Please allow me to pull this thought over from 15 to 16.

Sansa, the girl who

go south fast enough and didn't want to leave it to return to Winterfell, has winter inside her? One snowflake does not a blizzard make.

Sometimes a snowflake does make winter. Once that Dragon Spawn (was it you?) brought it up, I realized how much this reminds me of the catholic rythe of the communion. You get this symbolic, tastles "bread". For an outsider this is nothing to strange. For a true catholic, this is everything. In the catholic belives, this is the closest you will ever get to Christ while living. And even in the protestant churches (which tuned it down a little) it is still a very important symbol for accepting this faith, and all, that comes with it, as well as belonging to the community.

But GRRM would be going for the much more loaded up catholic version. Sansa finds herself on her knees like some time ago, the belivers would kneel befor the priest, who lays the hostia (the symbolic bread) on their tongue.

This is Sansa getting absolution for her falling from faith and the north (the sky clears up) and she is accepted once more into the community (she recives a snowflake as in the holy communion). This Snowflake is not just symbolic. It tasts of Winter and Winterfell, of everything, which is dear - or holy - to her. It changes her and makes her a true believer. And then she launches herself into building her Castle.

So until further notice, in my book she will be the one to rebuild Winterfell and with it the worldly power of the Kingdom to Come, the New Jerusalem of the North

A snowflake may not make a blizzard. But it can be the first of a blizzard to come :)

[Uncat]

Jeanne d'Arc. It is her, that this Sansa scene reminds me of. The Virgin which has a vision and pics up the fight for a lost kingdom. In some ways Brienne looks like a Jeanne d'Arc, but she isn't, because her mission is very personal: find two girls and fulfill an oath. Sansas mission will be bigger: restore the North. The scene reminds me so much of how Jeanne has her vision and her quest beginns. For her it is a litteral fight in arms. for Sansa it may be a political fight.

[Uncat]

Speaking on behalf of lurkers transitioning into contributors, I'd like to point out that about 90% of the content on the boards (particularly in the General forum) is a heaping mass of intolerable drivel. I don't care who everyone's favorite badass is, I don't want to know what happens in WoW until I read it as a whole, I agree that r+l=j without having to eternally rehash the evidence and implications (that really couldn't have been settled in less than 200 posts?), I'm offended by the people who are offended by the books' gratuity, and I'm a bit alienated by the worshipers of the alter of Sansa (although I have come to appreciate her character a bit more upon re-reads). This leaves a curious reader like myself with few places to go for intellectual extraction of the series' various nebula and no patience to simply sit on my hands for the next five years waiting for the next issue. I feel quite fortunate to find this haven for thoughtful, considerate discussion and marvel at the array of multinational perspectives intermingling so harmoniously and only hope I can do my part to contribute to the conversation.

And then you get here and I start all getting wild about Sansa :bang:

[Lykos]

<snip>But being a Sheppherd and rounding up your flock and guiding them down the right path is a Targaryen instinct... <snip>

Do you have a larger theory about this, or is it just refering to the valyrians being shepherds before they rose and defeated Old Ghis? I´d be very interested because it plays nicely along with what I see to be Danys´future role in the story.

If you discussed it in another thread just link it. :)

Regarding Mance, we have considered both in previous threds, that he was influenced by the Red Lot and also a connection to Bloodraven was considered. Maybe it actually is both.

He could have been under the influence of different factions without knowing.

Concerning Osha and the Three Eyed Crow, I believe that Bloodraven is just the current manifestation / spokesperson of the Three Eyed Crow, which is the eternal embodyment of all Greenseers.

So there would be a traditional knowledge about it, shared by all who know the mysteries of the Old Gods, be it wildling priests or Crannogmen Greenseers.

@Alarum, don´t be too hard on the rest of the board, different people have different ways of coping with their impatience. ;) Just keep contributing here, many will come for an alternative view and some will change their´s afterwards. I actually enjoy changing mine from time to time.

ETA: Uncat, here´s to Sansa. :cheers:

[alienarea]

Jeanne d'Arc. It is her, that this Sansa scene reminds me of. The Virgin which has a vision and pics up the fight for a lost kingdom. In some ways Brienne looks like a Jeanne d'Arc, but she isn't, because her mission is very personal: find two girls and fulfill an oath. Sansas mission will be bigger: restore the North. The scene reminds me so much of how Jeanne has her vision and her quest beginns. For her it is a litteral fight in arms. for Sansa it may be a political fight.

Jeanne d'Arc got burned alive.

[Rody]

I have read these topics, and my soul is wanting more!

one thing - what exactly you mean by "winter has entered Sansa"

Thanks

[DragonSpawn]

Do you have a larger theory about this, or is it just refering to the valyrians being shepherds before they rose and defeated Old Ghis? I´d be very interested because it plays nicely along with what I see to be Danys´future role in the story.

If you discussed it in another thread just link it. :)

Regarding Mance, we have considered both in previous threds, that he was influenced by the Red Lot and also a connection to Bloodraven was considered. Maybe it actually is both.

He could have been under the influence of different factions without knowing.

Concerning Osha and the Three Eyed Crow, I believe that Bloodraven is just the current manifestation / spokesperson of the Three Eyed Crow, which is the eternal embodyment of all Greenseers.

So there would be a traditional knowledge about it, shared by all who know the mysteries of the Old Gods, be it wildling priests or Crannogmen Greenseers.

@Alarum, don´t be too hard on the rest of the board, different people have different ways of coping with their impatience. ;) Just keep contributing here, many will come for an alternative view and some will change their´s afterwards. I actually enjoy changing mine from time to time.

ETA: Uncat, here´s to Sansa. :cheers:

It's always been in the back of my mind since i bought the blue-ray and watched the story of the Valyrians rise to power and mastery of Dragons... recent discussions around Mance highlighted the fact that while Dany has been trying to abolish slavery and unite multiple nations... Mance has taken the free-folk - who hate slavery and has united them already. Quite impressive really... and he's been much more effective than any one else so far... but with a green-seer on your side i suppose this task would be a lot easier... I hadn't thought about the 3EC being a general representation of the Greenseers - and i have no evidence to argue against that point :)

What are your thought's on Dany's future...?

[DragonSpawn]

I have read these topics, and my soul is wanting more!

one thing - what exactly you mean by "winter has entered Sansa"

Thanks

"she turned her face up to the sky and closed her eyes. She could feel the snow on her lashes, taste it on her lips. It was the taste of Winterfell. The taste of innocence. The taste of dreams.

When Sansa opened her eyes again, she was on her knees. She did not remember falling. It seemed to her that the sky was a lighter shade of grey."

This has drummed up a bit of interest recently as it sounds very much like she tastes the snowflake and then passes out... the sky being a lighter shade of grey suggests more than just a few seconds passed before she regained conciousness... in another parallel the passage: It was the taste of Winterfell. The taste of innocence. The taste of dreams. This sounds very similar to Bran eating the Weirwood paste and Dany drinking shade of the evening... in these three instances something that appears pretty non-edible has turned out to taste like all the good things they have ever known. As UnCat brilliantly pointed out this is very much like holy communion ... a re-acceptance into her faith. and in addition - she then seems inspired to build a snow castle in the likeness of Winterfell... almost like an instruction... and it has come up in several threads recently about using snow in a defensive way - in the gift chapter Stannis talks about 'holding the ground' which appears to be pretty lame ground to hold... but when pressed he answers "yet"... how can snow be used to create defensinve ground? and for that matter ... how do the Ice sword become swords... there may be a clue from the childrens book "the Ice dragon" where Adara describes building her own snow-castle... and i also started speculating that maybe the way LF tells her to imagine the glass in the glass gardens could be the first clue on what a Winter-warg is capable of...

ETA: While this is a short summary of what was discussed in Heresy 15 - i don't think we have really worked out yet what to do with this information... speculation welcome :)

[Lykos]

Dragonspawn, my ideas for Dany is that she´ll be a kind of Moses figure who leads the freed men to the promised land. This is an idea I´ve had for some time, but I haven´t developed it and haven´t had the chance to discuss it. I obviously bring it up in the wrong threads or at the wrong time, for example the link for Uncat about Sansa. (I mention this idea on the previous page of that thread.)

[Uncat]

Jeanne d'Arc got burned alive.

Yepp, bad things do happen to nice girls who play with fire.

Sansa lost her Wolf. This must be bad in some way, I guess.