Heresy 17

[Black Crow]

An Introduction to Heresy

The Heresy threads are very wide-ranging in scope, reflecting the breadth and complexity of GRRM’s story itself, but are largely concerned with exploring the Song of Ice and Fire rather than the Game of Thrones, and in particular with the nature of Ice and those who serve it.

Throughout the series so far there has been an ever present threat in the background of an invasion by the Others, seemingly characterised by Old Nan in AGoT as cold, dead things, hating all life and intent on destroying it. The first of the core heresies challenges this assumption.

The true identity of the Others is deliberately and significantly obscured from the very beginning. In the prologue to AGoT we find a ranger named Will watching from high in a tree as the “Others” emerge to fight and kill Ser Waymar Royce. But why are they called the “Others”? Later in the same book, first Lord Commander Mormont and then Old Nan speak of White Walkers. The two terms appear to be interchangeable and indeed the term Others is not used at all in the TV version – so why create such a distinction in the first place?

The answer would appear to lie in a conversation between Maester Luwin and Osha as they explain to Bran the early history of Westeros and what happened to the Children of the Forest. They “and the other old races” says Osha went beyond the Wall - “fled” says Maester Luwin. The point is that the term “Others” is being used in its ordinary plural sense. If it were just the Children and the Giants who fled, Osha would say so. Instead by referring to the “other old races”, she means the Children plus at least two other old races. Thus, although they have supposedly not been seen for thousands of years, as soon as Will sees Ser Waymar’s killers emerge from the trees, he immediately recognises them, not because he’s met them before or seen pictures of them, but because he instantly recognises them as non-human, and therefore belonging to the Others.

In short therefore the Others defeated in that battle celebrated by the song, The Night that Ended, were not necessarily just the White Walkers, but those other old races as well, including the Children; all of whom afterwards fled beyond the Wall.

And so to the Others, familiarly known to many as the White Walkers, and to a fair number of heretics as the Sidhe. The term originates in an email by GRRM describing their physical appearance: “The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think , ok… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous”. While it is acknowledged that this was an artist’s brief, the reference to the Sidhe is considered as a significant one, because on further investigation there are other very important similarities, not least the taking of changelings. Craster’s sons are the most obvious case in point, but the tale of Bael the Bard is also recognisable as a classic changeling story, while the white lady who enchants Bran Stark the Night’s King is akin to the Queen of Faerie in other folklore about the Sidhe.

Thus we tend to refer to the Sidhe a lot in the Heresy threads and the stories of Bran Stark the Nights King, and of Bael the Bard also provide substance to the most controversial aspect of the heresies; the suggestion that there may be a link between the Starks and the Sidhe, as hinted by the blue rose plucked by Bael (in an echo of the tale of Tam Lin), the blue roses beloved of Lyanna Stark –Jon Snow’s reputed mother – and the vision of a blue rose, representing Jon, growing from the Wall.

There is also that Stark connection through the identification by Old Nan of the Nights King as Bran Stark and this in turn provides further clues. There is an apparent practical problem with Bran taking a woman of the Sidhe to wife in that she, like the rangers who killed Ser Waymar Royce and the one slain by Sam below the Fist, was icy cold. Yet the story is told along with Old Nan’s reference to Wildling women lying with the Others to produce terrible half-human children, and the answer is found in an earlier work by GRRM entitled the Ice Dragon, about a girl named Adara who while outwardly normal can ride the dragon because she has Winter inside her – a useful bit of magic if you can get it. GRRM is understood to have said that the Ice Dragon story is not set in Westeros, but its significance can be gauged by the number of times it is referenced, notably in ADwD. The Starks after all were once Kings of Winter (a title which some heretics believe was lost with the Nights King), had a sword named Ice and shouted “Winter is Coming!” as they swung it. There is in short a strong belief amongst many heretics that Jon Snow has Sidhe blood in him through Bael, and as if that were not enough there is also a curious scene on the Eyrie where Sansa appears to receive a snow-flake as a sacrament, receiving Winter inside her, while Jon also encounters intimate snowflakes.

Postulating a connection between the Starks and the Sidhe also raises doubts as to the origins of the Wall and the Nights watch. Supposedly the Wall was raised after the Long Night to prevent the return of the Others and defended ever since by the men of the Watch.

Yet allowing for GRRM’s admission that he made it far too tall, the Wall is too big to have been built other than by magic and while it is obviously a barrier it is not a fortification. Current heretical thinking is inclined to link it with the story of the Last Hero, who when all seemed lost, sought out the Children. According to Old Nan they saved him from the pursuing Others, but we’re not told how and nor, more importantly, are we told how Westeros was saved, but there is a shrewd suspicion that some kind of agreement was made, limiting the advance of the realm of Ice to the line now marked by the Wall, in return for the binding of the Starks to the Sidhe – as Kings of Winter – until one Stark of Winterfell overthrew his brother the Nights King, with the aid of Andal crusaders professing allegiance to the Lord of Light, and in return for that aid gave them the Wall to hold as the Nights Watch.

Ultimately then such a conclusion must imply that the conflict is far from straightforward and as we have seen in ADwD the Others/Sidhe are not the only threat to the human kingdoms of Westeros for “Benerro has sent forth word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfilment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned… and her triumph over the darkness will bring a summer that will never end… death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn…”

The final battle therefore may not be fought to defeat the Others, but to defeat the Red Lot and the dragons as well in order to restore the balance between Ice and Fire.

[Black Crow]

Previous heresies for reference:

Heresy five (with links to earlier heresies),

Heresy six, (inc. the complete Old Nan’s Tales)

Heresy seven,

Heresy eight,

Heresy nine,

Heresy ten,

Heresy eleven,

heresy twelve

heresy thirteen

http://asoiaf.wester...8801-heresy-14/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/69643-heresy-15/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/70033-heresy-16/

A healthy dose of Heresy can be good for you.

[FanTasy]

Let's roll ... and thanks for the summary Black Crow. Being a heretic I have some doubts about the Sidhe-angle, although it is clear enough that GRRM used them as an inspiration.

[7V3N]

Here we go, 17 already. Let's do our best to stay topic-focused this time, rather than bouncing from topic to topic. I find that is when we, as a group, produce the best and most productive discussions/debates.

[FanTasy]

Here we go, 17 already. Let's do our best to stay topic-focused this time, rather than bouncing from topic to topic. I find that is when we, as a group, produce the best and most productive discussions/debates.

I agree, but this would require that a topic is given, and 'managed' by someone.

I'm not sure we would have reached some insights if 'topic-management' had been very strict :frown5:

[7V3N]

I agree, but this would require that a topic is given, and 'managed' by someone.

I'm not sure we would have reached some insights if 'topic-management' had been very strict :frown5:

I agree. I just mean our priorities should be more dedicated to Heresy and less of our own personal theories (I am guilty just as we all are). We need to first give input to the main topic at hand, then on the side add our off-topic-ish comments. And when replaying, treat the off-topic comment as secondary to the main one. This way we don't just drop ideas mid-discussion to pick up a new one.

[Ser Leftwich]

Not sure when the Codex Hereticum will be done, but I think that will be a great launching point for more directed discussion.

How does one get chosen for the Heretic synod?

[Black Crow]

Oh I don't think we've done too badly. A gentle nudge now and again is all that it takes and with that in mind I've been thinking some more about Craster.

OK, he was a cross-grained, nasty sod, but why?

Its this business of him bearing a heavy curse that's set me thinking. As readers we're presented with a fairly unpleasant character, who practices incest with his daughters and gives his sons to the Others/Sidhe - and for a long time it was argued he was just killing them off. Therefore when we're told by Ygritte that he bears a heavy curse, the natural assumption is that he's earned it by his behaviour.

Yet, as I said in Heresy 16, in ordinary usage bearing a curse is enduring something that's been imposed. What I'm getting at is that Craster wasn't cursed for giving up his sons; he was cursed to give up his sons.

From that point of view its not surprising he was bitter and twisted, and perhaps too that's why he was a friend to the Night's Watch, whose purpose was to guard the realms of men against the cold lot who kept coming for his sons.

[Black Crow]

Not sure when the Codex Hereticum will be done, but I think that will be a great launching point for more directed discussion.

How does one get chosen for the Heretic synod?

Its the OP for Heresy 17. Carefully worded to explain what we're thinking about without getting dogmatic about anything. I'm proposing to use it as a template for the OP of any future Heresy chapters, just by way of an introduction. If appropriate it will be modified from time to time to take account of current theories and any other revelations which might crop up like that Sidhe email.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Have to answer the closing posts of 16...

.... If Bran is winter/heart-of-winter, why would he name his direwolf-as-extension-of -himself "Summer". Seems counter-intuitive

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Lousy mobile version. Sorry. Double post. 5 demerits for me.

[7V3N]

Interesting Craster point. If he was cursed to give up his sons, why? Any chance he used some weirwood to build his Keep on top of a faery hill and was then approached by the Others/Sidhe, whom he believed were long gone, and struck a deal for his life. As part of the deal, he supplied sons and mounts (we don't see horses at his keep IIRC) for the Others.

Have to answer the closing posts of 16...

.... If Bran is winter/heart-of-winter, why would he name his direwolf-as-extension-of -himself "Summer". Seems counter-intuitive

Maybe he will have to sacrifice Summer and symbolize his abandonment of Summer and embrace of Winter.

[Efilnikufesin]

Interesting Craster point. If he was cursed to give up his sons, why? Any chance he used some weirwood to build his Keep on top of a faery hill and was then approached by the Others/Sidhe, whom he believed were long gone, and struck a deal for his life. As part of the deal, he supplied sons and mounts (we don't see horses at his keep IIRC) for the Others.

Maybe he will have to sacrifice Summer and symbolize his abandonment of Summer and embrace of Winter.

Or, possibly Bran will be killed to end the Long Night. Upon his death he remains a part of Summer, hence Bran's death will bring about summmer(or spring first I guess.)

Not saying I agree with it, just playing some devil's advocate.

Edit, I am having a feeling that Craster is just observing an old tradition, and that it was something wildlings used to do on a regular basis and grew out of, just as the North has forgotten it's past with the Wall and winter, the wildlings have forgotten how they survived even further north for so long.

[nanother]

There's this curious exchange about Craster's son between Val and Jon

Jon Snow was in no mood for it. It is too cold and dark to play, and the hour is too late. “Only for a time. You will return. For the boy, if for no other reason.”

“Craster’s son?” Val shrugged. “He is no kin to me.”

“I have heard you singing to him.”

“I was singing to myself. Am I to blame if he listens?” A faint smile brushed her lips. “It makes

him laugh. Oh, very well. He is a sweet little monster.”

“Monster?”

“His milk name. I had to call him something. See that he stays safe and warm. For his mother’s

sake, and mine. And keep him away from the red woman. She knows who he is. She sees things in her fires.”

Arya, he thought, hoping it was so. “Ashes and cinders.”

“Kings and dragons.”

Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark

wings outlined against a sea of flame. “If she knew, she would have taken the boy away from us. Dalla’s boy, not your monster. A word in the king’s ear would have been the end of it.” And of me. Stannis would have taken it for treason. “Why let it happen if she knew?”

“Because it suited her. Fire is a fickle thing. No one knows which way a flame will go.” Val put a

foot into a stirrup, swung her leg over her horse’s back, and looked down from the saddle. “Do you

remember what my sister told you?”

What reason does Melisandre have to harm Craster's son? And then there's the curious nickname 'monster'. I'm not sure whether or not I should be surprised that Val is s fond of him.

[Black Crow]

What reason does Melisandre have to harm Craster's son? And then there's the curious nickname 'monster'. I'm not sure whether or not I should be surprised that Val is s fond of him.

This is why I think Craster may have been cursed to give up his sons. Not as a tithe to hell, but because there's something special about them, perhaps because they have Sidhe blood.

[Tyryan Lannister]

The curse that Craster suffers from could be a classic Greek Zeus-to-Chronus, Oedipus-to-Laius type of prophecy where he learned at some point that if a son of his grew into adulthood that son would be the death of him. The Oedipus-to-Laius particularly fits in with the incest (cause, you know, Oedipus and his mother...)

Although I feel that those classic myths and others like them are just one of the original bases for the Craster story, the others being somehow related to the Sidhe and the changeling myths and possibly others that we just haven't found yet.

Also, on the topic of going off topic, at times it's good for someone to throw a random, seemingly unrelated thought into the threads; someone else might read it and pick up on some connection that the OP didn't see, thus possibly bringing it into the center of discussion.

[Capon Breath]

Have to answer the closing posts of 16...

.... If Bran is winter/heart-of-winter, why would he name his direwolf-as-extension-of -himself "Summer". Seems counter-intuitive

Great question - don't have an answer but there is an interesting point (I think in an early ADWD Jon POV) where Jon is having a wolf dream via Ghost and as Ghost he thinks about his Wolf brothers & sisters and refers to Brans wolf as "The one who smells of summer" I find this interesting use of language as

1 - The Direwolves preumably don't know the Human names they have each been given or the relevance of them

2 - The use of summer in this case seems to denote the season & not the Wolf name

Maybe its to do with Balance & opposing forces -

Ice & Fire

North & South

Honour vs power

And Bran represents Winter & Summer?

[7V3N]

This is why I think Craster may have been cursed to give up his sons. Not as a tithe to hell, but because there's something special about them, perhaps because they have Sidhe blood.

Which would support the joint theory that Craster is a Stark, and that Bael's changeling brought Other/Sidhe blood to the Stark line.

And on off topic:

I am bad at conveying my point with this. What I am aiming for is more content per post. So we can stay on our topic A, while also discussing B and C on the side of a single post. Rather than 3 discussions going on all over, we can have one main, with side points/tangents being discussed with some order and not dropping off unfinished discussions only to pick up a new one.

[Black Crow]

And on off topic:

I am bad at conveying my point with this. What I am aiming for is more content per post. So we can stay on our topic A, while also discussing B and C on the side of a single post. Rather than 3 discussions going on all over, we can have one main, with side points/tangents being discussed with some order and not dropping off unfinished discussions only to pick up a new one.

With 17 chapters since November, we're not doing too badly, just ride with it :cool4:

[Efilnikufesin]

The curse that Craster suffers from could be a classic Greek Zeus-to-Chronus, Oedipus-to-Laius type of prophecy where he learned at some point that if a son of his grew into adulthood that son would be the death of him. The Oedipus-to-Laius particularly fits in with the incest (cause, you know, Oedipus and his mother...)

Although I feel that those classic myths and others like them are just one of the original bases for the Craster story, the others being somehow related to the Sidhe and the changeling myths and possibly others that we just haven't found yet.

Also, on the topic of going off topic, at times it's good for someone to throw a random, seemingly unrelated thought into the threads; someone else might read it and pick up on some connection that the OP didn't see, thus possibly bringing it into the center of discussion.

Bael the Bard's (Brandon the Daughterless) story itself is an Oedipus type story as well, with the father refusing to kill the son, and the son supposedly being eventually Flayed by a Bolton to wear his skin.