Heresy 19

[Black Crow]

An Introduction to Heresy

The Heresy threads are very wide-ranging in scope, reflecting the breadth and complexity of GRRM’s story itself, but are largely concerned with exploring the Song of Ice and Fire rather than the Game of Thrones, and in particular with the nature of Ice and those who serve it.

Participation in the threads doesn’t require that you subscribe to any or all of the core heresies, but its obviously helpful to know something of what we’re speaking about.

Throughout the series there has been an ever present threat of an invasion by the Others, seemingly characterised by Old Nan in AGoT as cold, dead things, hating all life and intent on destroying it. The first of the core heresies challenges this assumption.

Others, familiarly known to many as the White Walkers, are also known to a fair number of heretics as the Sidhe. The term originates in an email by GRRM describing their physical appearance: “The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think , ok… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous”. While it is acknowledged that this was an artist’s brief, the reference to the Sidhe is considered as a significant one, because on further investigation there are other very important similarities, not least the taking of changelings. Craster’s sons are the most obvious case in point, but the tale of Bael the Bard is also recognisable as a classic changeling story, while the white lady who enchants Bran Stark the Night’s King is akin to the Queen of Faerie in other folklore about the Sidhe.

Thus we tend to refer to the Sidhe a lot in the Heresy threads and the stories of Bran Stark the Nights King, and of Bael the Bard also provide substance to the most controversial aspect of the heresies; the suggestion that there may be a link between the Starks and the Sidhe, as hinted by the blue rose plucked by Bael (in an echo of the tale of Tam Lin), the blue roses beloved of Lyanna Stark –Jon Snow’s reputed mother – and the vision of a blue rose, representing Jon, growing from the Wall.

There is also that Stark connection through that identification by Old Nan of the Nights King as Bran Stark and this in turn provides further clues. There is an apparent practical problem with Bran taking a woman of the Sidhe to wife in that she, like the rangers who killed Ser Waymar Royce and the one slain by Sam below the Fist, was icy cold. Yet the story is told along with Old Nan’s reference to Wildling women lying with the Others to produce terrible half-human children, and the answer is found in an earlier work by GRRM entitled the Ice Dragon, about a girl named Adara who while outwardly normal can ride the dragon because she has Winter inside her – a useful bit of magic if you can get it. GRRM is understood to have said that the Ice Dragon story is not set in Westeros, but its significance can be gauged by the number of times it is referenced, notably in ADwD. The Starks after all were once Kings of Winter (a title which some heretics believe was lost with the Nights King), had a sword named Ice and shouted “Winter is Coming!” as they swung it. There is in short a strong belief amongst many heretics that Jon Snow has Sidhe blood in him through Bael, and as if that were not enough there is also a curious scene on the Eyrie where Sansa appears to receive a snow-flake as a sacrament, receiving Winter inside her, while Jon also encounters intimate snowflakes.

Postulating a connection between the Starks and the Sidhe also raises doubts as to the origins of the Wall and the Nights watch. Supposedly the Wall was raised after the Long Night to prevent the return of the Others and defended ever since by the men of the Watch.

Yet allowing for GRRM’s admission that he made it far too tall, the Wall is too big to have been built other than by magic and while it is obviously a barrier it is not a fortification. Current heretical thinking is inclined to link it with the story of the Last Hero, who when all seemed lost, sought out the Children. According to Old Nan they saved him from the pursuing Others, but we’re not told how – although it may have something to do with guest right - and nor, more importantly, are we told how Westeros was saved. In his Asshai interview has indicated that there is a connection between the Children and the Others, yet to be explored and this supports a shrewd suspicion that some kind of agreement was made, limiting the advance of the realm of Ice to the line now marked by the Wall, in return for the binding of the Starks to the Sidhe – as Kings of Winter – until one Stark of Winterfell overthrew his brother the Nights King, with the aid of Andal crusaders professing allegiance to the Lord of Light, and in return for that aid gave them the Wall to hold as the Nights Watch.

Ultimately then such a conclusion must imply that the conflict is far from straightforward and as we have seen in ADwD the Others/Sidhe are not the only threat to the human kingdoms of Westeros for “Benerro has sent forth word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfilment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned… and her triumph over the darkness will bring a summer that will never end… death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn…”

The final battle therefore may not be fought to defeat the Others, but to defeat the Red Lot and the dragons as well in order to restore the balance between Ice and Fire.

As to that balance, discussion in the thread has ranged far beyond consideration of the true nature of the Others and the possible link to the Starks. Rather we take a holistic approach here to the Song of Ice and Fire, examining all manner of different angles and taking in discussion of timelines and events far far away from the Wall in order to try and figure out what’s really going on.

We also have a tradition of open-mindedness, conducting debates with good humour and respect for differing and dissenting opinions. This is a thread to be enjoyed.

[Black Crow]

Previous heresies for reference:

Heresy five (with links to earlier heresies),

Heresy six, (inc. the complete Old Nan’s Tales)

Heresy seven,

Heresy eight,

Heresy nine,

Heresy ten,

Heresy eleven,

heresy twelve

heresy thirteen

http://asoiaf.wester...8801-heresy-14/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/69643-heresy-15/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/70033-heresy-16/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/70554-heresy-17/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/70972-heresy-18/

:commie: :commie: Heresy rocks :commie: :commie:

[greygnarl]

Its all a matter of perception. I did say earlier she could be wrong about him, but on the other hand lots of things about Mance don't quite add up.

Anyway with 397 posts down I think its time to call a wrap on this version of the thread and open Heresy 19.

In closing can I add my thanks to FanTasy's, I may be the arch-heretic but I'm not having a conversation with myself, its all of you out there who have contributed that make this thread what it is, and what a thread it is too, with so many revelations slipping out to feed us fresh ideas and form what really is firming up into a pretty good idea of what may be going on.

I just don't see anything in Osha's statement that clashes with what the Halfhand said.

[WintersKing]

I don't contribute too often, but I have been following for quite awhile. By far my favorite thread. Just want to thank you all for bringing the best discussion to these boards. Keep up the good work!

[7V3N]

Just countered someone. LONG LIVE HERESY!

In Heresy, we speculate that ...[snip]

Ah, but you all go off the deep end, it is known. :P

Perhaps in the view of many, but if you read it we always use evidence and the more GRRM reveals, the more our theories seems possible. Generally the counter to Heresy is "well that is too complicated." People do not give GRRM enough credit because he called himself a "gardener" despite acknowledging that he has had a set plan for the story all along. His most recent interview gives even more credit to the Heresy threads.

We have a connection of Sidhe-Others from GRRM and with that knowledge we dove deep into mythology and found many clear connections. We are far from crackpot.

:smoking:

[Lummel]

On the contrary Shadow Fox - I feel you still need to embrace your inner crackpot, there's nothing wrong with a bit of crack pottery and it is only when you truly appreciate the cracked pot that you can see that some heresies make better sense than some orthodoxies!

But congratulations on your conversion in any case :cheers:

[Black Crow]

I don't think we have all the answers (and anyway if we did there'd be nothing left to talk about), but the point of the Heresy threads is that we know there's something funny going on, and unlike so many other theories that come up from time to time concerning the true identity of this character or that, motives, the information gradually being revealed to us doesn't demolish but strengthen the heresies - and its quite exciting to reflect on just how many of them we've had recently, starting with the scene in the TV version (strictly speaking not canon, but hey...) where the White Walker really does collect Craster's son, (despite which there are still some orthodox souls who stoutly assert that Craster's wives don't know what they're talking about); last nights admission that there is a link between the Children and the Others, and of course the earlier Sidhe revelation. Yes, the orthodox can argue it was just an artist's brief, but far too much has slotted into place as a result, not least the Bael/Tam Lin/Blue Roses/Jon connection.

Its great. :cool4:

[7V3N]

On the contrary Shadow Fox - I feel you still need to embrace your inner crackpot, there's nothing wrong with a bit of crack pottery and it is only when you truly appreciate the cracked pot that you can see that some heresies make better sense than some orthodoxies!

But congratulations on your conversion in any case :cheers:

Oh I certainly embrace my inner crackpot, but I know that as a whole Heresy is far from crackpot. "Crackpot" ideas may stem many of our discussions, but we always have a boatload of evidence to back it up. Usually it is Person A says "What about this?" Then B through Z bring in evidence to support or refute the idea. But we as a whole are not crackpot, because we use just as much or more evidence than basically all other threads. I mean, I had never heard of the Sidhe before Heresy. Now I know a great deal of background of the Sidhe (pronounced "shee"!).

ETA: I guess it depends on how you define crackpot. I see it as a theory with evidence beyond circumstantial, or no evidence at all.

[greygnarl]

@Black Crow

What Sidhe revelation are you talking about? Is it just what is explained in the OP of every thread or is it something else?

Edit:Spelling

[7V3N]

@Black Crow

What Sidhe revelation are you talking about? Is it just waht is explained in the OP of every thread or is it something else?

GRRM described to the illustrator or a (IIRC) comic version that the Others are like the Sidhe.

Looks like it made it to the wiki:

Old Nan declares them to be cold dead things, hating all life, but in an email to the comic-book artist Tommy Patterson GRRM recently wrote: 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.'

[Black Crow]

Essay by Tommy Patterson, the artist who produced the comic book version:

I had many talks with George. He told me of the ice swords, and the reflective, camouflaging armor that picks up the images of the things around it like a clear, still pond. He spoke a lot about what they were not, but what they were was harder to put into words. Here is what George said, in one e-mail: 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.

[greygnarl]

Okay, just making sure it wasn't something I missed earlier.

[Black Crow]

Depends what you mean by "missed". We had spent a lot of time on these threads researching and discussing the likely model for the Others/White Walkers. Scandanavian mythology figured prominently for obvious reasons, but we also picked up what appeared to be links to the Mabinogion (Bran/Bryn/Raven was a bit of a giveaway) and then when the Sidhe reference popped up out of nowhere, we started looking more closely at that side and that's when it got a bit exciting because there weren't just some interesting parallels but a lot of things suddenly seemed to slot into place.

[greygnarl]

I knew about that Sidhe reference but what I didn't know is that it hasn't been there since the start of Heresy. That being said, working under the assumption that the Sidhe comment predated the Heresy threads (which I was) I didn't know that it was a revelation. I thought that the Sidhe revelation you mentioned might have been a huge connection you made while going through old Sidhe tales.

Hope you followed that.

[ThinPaperWings]

I was going to post about the Others/CotF comment from the Asshai interview but I see Black Crow got to it at the end of the last heresy thread.

Regarding the Last Hero's (relative) salvation through guest right, it would be definitely be more in keeping with Martin in particular and with Sidhe/fairy lore in general if that was the case. The idea that Children would be more or less military allies would be better suited to knee-jerk Tolkien-esque high fantasy 'good army vs evil army better,' that Ice and Fire is not.

[greygnarl]

That is one of the most informative interviews GRRM has made. Lots of material to work with.

[lokisnow]

I think the GRRM interview about Brandon having a Bastard (or more) is indicative of Ramsey being Brandon's Bastard, not Bolton's. You have to remember your name, lil Ramsey. I think that makes sense more than Brandon & Lyanna.

I also think that GRRM interview indicates that Tywin may have been the impetus behind Jaime & Cersei beginning incestuous explorations. Remember it wasn't their father that caught them, it was a servant. Perhaps he even encouraged it, in his own subtle way.

***

Regarding Mance, The Osha paragraph quoted on the previous thread explicitly states that the White Walkers are not like Rangers. That White Walkers are like Rangers is one of BC's favorite theories.

Regarding Mance, Osha says he has not tasted winter. Sansa has tasted winter.

Regarding Mance, the story Halfhand relates sounds like the story Mance relates, was told, or retells. Osha suggests he was always a crow. This suggests to me that Mance was a northern bastard--probably Rickard's or Bloodraven's--and was sent to the wall or kept on the wall as an infant onward. When Mance was old enough to ask questions, he was spun the story that the Halfhand relates because no one was allowed to tell him the truth. He took that story for his own, but methinks he probably found out the truth through other means.

Regarding the Last Hero and the Faerie tradition of pledging service to the Faerie queen until something unlikely happens, this makes me think of Bloodraven--perhaps this is why he is 'in service' to the tree. It also makes me think that the prophecy Rhaegar came across was not so much a prophecy, but perhaps the terms of the agreement between the Last Hero and the Faerie Queen, and the only way to free the Last Hero from her service is for the unlikely thing to occur. This suggests the last hero is still alive, in service to the Great Other Queen, and his suffering is the horrible thing that Bran saw in the court of the Faerie Queen when he looked through the veil of winter.

***

New heresy: has anyone suggested that the Three Eyed Crow is the Last Hero?

[Mance Mance Fancy Pants]

This isn't really related to this specific Heresy, but we've discussed a lot of Scandinavian and British mythology, why don't we take a look at some Arthurian legend? I realized today the similarity between the names Lancel and Lancelot. In Arthurian legend, while Arthur is away at war (I think) Lancelot sleeps with Gwenovere (Arthurs Queen). Anyway, I was struck by the similarities between that and what happens between Lancel, Cersei, and Jaime. Has anyone else noticed the influence of Arthurian legend on Martin's work?

[Mance Mance Fancy Pants]

also could somebody point me to the interview that greygnarl mentioned?

[Winter's Daughter]

I love your recap here on #19. Thanks!

... The Starks after all were once Kings of Winter (a title which some heretics believe was lost with the Nights King), had a sword named Ice and shouted “Winter is Coming!” as they swung it.

..... there is also a curious scene on the Eyrie where Sansa appears to receive a snow-flake as a sacrament, receiving Winter inside her, while Jon also encounters intimate snowflakes.

Love this too! A perfect way to describe and apply the house words.