Heresy 28

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 28

If you haven’t been here before you’ll find that this is a wide ranging and pretty eclectic thread. The heresies are based on the belief that what we were told in AGoT was mince; that Jon is not going to turn out to be Azor Ahai and will not ride dragons to victory over the Others to earn his place on the Iron Throne. As GRRM himself said in a recent interview:

…it was always my intention: to play with the reader’s expectations. Before I was a writer I was a voracious reader and I am still, and I have read many, many books with very predictable plots. As a reader, what I seek is a book that delights and surprises me. I want to not know what is gonna happen. For me, that’s the essence of storytelling and for this reason I want my readers to turn the pages with increasing fever: to know what happens next. There are a lot of expectations, mainly in the fantasy genre, which you have the hero and he is the chosen one, and he is always protected by his destiny. I didn’t want it for my books.

We're not in the business of challenging canon, but of challenging entrenched (but unsupported) beliefs about what is canon. We are, quite justly, accused of making some tenuous connections as we grope towards an understanding of what's really going on, but far too much of the orthodoxy which we challenge is even less well founded and hallowed only be repetition.

The widespread belief for example that Bran will learn from the Children how to defeat the Others, flies in the face not only of GRRM’s admission that there is a connection between them, but ignores the fact that it is all too clear that the Children’s real enemies are Mel the Pyromaniac, the rest of the Red Lot and, by inference, Dany’s amazing dragons.

In place of that orthodoxy we try to figure out what’s really going on, both by reference to what the texts really say and also to the Celtic and Norse folklore which lies behind what’s going on around and beyond the Wall.

We question lots of things, ranging from the timelines to the building of the Wall and who Mance Rayder really is and why, but we do, nevertheless argue. All we insist upon in this thread is that discussion – and arguments – be conducted with reference to the text, a respect for the opinions of others, and above all with great good humour.

[Black Crow]

Previous heresies are linked below for reference, but unless it’s a particularly dreary night outside and you have an intravenous coffee supply set up, I’d recommend you just stick to Heresy 6, which includes a complete and invaluable transcript of Old Nan’s tales, and Heresy 10 where we first discussed GRRM’s email comparing the Others to an icy version of the Sidhe, and what we found when we looked into them. Otherwise just dive straight in to the current thread and we’ll be happy to explain what has gone before…

Heresy five (with links to earlier heresies),

Heresy six, (inc. the complete Old Nan’s Tales)

Heresy seven,

Heresy eight,

Heresy nine,

Heresy ten, (with the introduction of the Sidhe)

Heresy eleven,

heresy twelve

heresy thirteen

http://asoiaf.wester...8801-heresy-14/

http://asoiaf.wester...9643-heresy-15/

http://asoiaf.wester...0033-heresy-16/

http://asoiaf.wester...0554-heresy-17/

http://asoiaf.wester...0972-heresy-18/

http://asoiaf.wester...1492-heresy-19/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/71971-heresy-20/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/72274-heresy-21/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/74304-heresy-23/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/74991-heresy-24/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/75530-heresy-25/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/75895-heresy-26/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/76163-heresy-27/

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Reporting for duty!

[Black Crow]

Good for you, I'm for bed :cool4:

But I still think that Ghost's reluctance to enter the ringwork on the Fist is significant and confirms that he is a creature of Ice.

[Melifeather]

And, I think Ghost sensed a change in the force field around the ringfort. Either a ward was removed or a counter-ward cast. It was this change that allowed wights to enter.

[Little Wing]

I still think it was bad mojo on the Fist he was sensing.... Kidding, of course Ghost is of the Winter, har! :commie:

[Fwaatcha]

Good for you, I'm for bed :cool4:

But I still think that Ghost's reluctance to enter the ringwork on the Fist is significant and confirms that he is a creature of Ice.

I just made a post yesterday speaking of wards, perhaps this will strengthen your arguement

http://asoiaf.wester...kull-on-a-post/

If you're like me and you don't like clicking links

The bottom line of the above link is to point out the fact that a skull on a post can and will deter Others/Wights.

A fenced in area with a "Skull on a Post" at either end of the fence will prevent Others/wights from entering the perimeter.

The Fist of the First Men may have had skulls on posts , if they did , I missed it.

[Knight errant]

I just made a post yesterday speaking of wards, perhaps this will strengthen your arguement

http://asoiaf.wester...kull-on-a-post/

If you're like me and you don't like clicking links

The bottom line of the above link is to point out the fact that a skull on a post can and will deter Others/Wights.

A fenced in area with a "Skull on a Post" at either end of the fence will prevent Others/wights from entering the perimeter.

The Fist of the First Men may have had skulls on posts , if they did , I missed it.

No, no there is no mention of skulls or posts as I recall and Ghost still does not wish to enter. On top of this wouldn't the other Wildlings be aware of such a simple thing? If the ward IS contained in bones - which I think is possible, it would have to be blood magic I bet.

[Melifeather]

I'll do some research into this use of skulls and try to find book pages. I have electronic versions of the books as well as paperback.

I do recall one of Dany's blood riders mentioning something being warded by a ring of skulls on spikes.

[Profion]

What if there´s repeling magic on the Fist and that is what drove Ghost away? Ghost might be a Winter creature after all.

[Dreadnaught]

What if there´s repeling magic on the Fist and that is what drove Ghost away? Ghost might be a Winter creature after all.

At first Ghost wouldn't enter the ringfort, but later after they had set up camp he came back. Nothing notable happened in the meantime, unless setting up camp breaks the enchantment, in which case what would be the point. I don't think there are any magical enchantments on the ringfort, I think Ghost just sensed that this was a bad place to be. Possibly Ghost or Jon may have some intuition as to when something bad is going to happen. My bet would be that it was Jon's intuition and he unconsciously affects Ghost. Similar to Ghost's behaviour before Jon got backstabbed.

[Tyryan Lannister]

I'll do some research into this use of skulls and try to find book pages. I have electronic versions of the books as well as paperback

Well aren't you special. :bowdown: JK JK

Also... Heresy 28 already.... kind of an anniversary for me, since I joined in Heresy 8.

Also... at 20 pages each... 560 pages.... jesus fucking christ.... and it's actually more than that... in only a year.... great job everyone... I say PIZZA PARTY!

[Black Crow]

I'll do some research into this use of skulls and try to find book pages. I have electronic versions of the books as well as paperback.

I do recall one of Dany's blood riders mentioning something being warded by a ring of skulls on spikes.

It was when they were treking through the red waste and Dany sent her bloodriders out to find a refuge; Aggo found a ruined city "warded by a ring of skulls mounted on rusted iron spears, so he dared not enter"

[Black Crow]

What if there´s repeling magic on the Fist and that is what drove Ghost away? Ghost might be a Winter creature after all.

That's basically what I've been arguing and why I drew it to the attention of the assembled company in the first place. Its still the most straightforward answer and its also one which is in line with heretical suspicions that just as there is admitted to be a relationship of some kind between the Children and the Others that relationship, whatever it is, also extends to the Starks.

[Black Wolf Smith]

I fall on the Ghost is of winter, and that some type of ward/spell/ BAMF mojo keeps him from going in to the Fist. If it is a Sidhe hill, it could be that something bad happened there. Damn, I can only come up with a Star Wars EU thing to bring up. When a powerfull Sith Lord dies, it makes the area around it poisoned/ill feeling to other force users. If The Others use to live there, and were slaughtered, it could be their remains/ mist are trapped under the hill its self. That their remains may be what is keeping Ghost away. Maybe I am just fishing. While the wights did make him angry, uneasy, he still was able to go to the bodies.

[brut]

Fist is the place of slaughter where many First Men may have died ages ago. Even if it is not warded, the uneasy sense of death might actually be picked up by Ghost. Similar to the way Harrenhal is perceived, or Nightfort. Actually, what may make sense is that places where blood was spilled either for magical reasons or battle, may give certain bad vibe, you know....

Edit: some grammar

[Little Wing]

I argued in the last Heresy that Ghost picked up on bad mojo: past or future. Something that happened there or that is about to happen, but the quote from the book really does make me wonder about that.

But when they reached the ringfort, Ghost baulked again. He padded forward warily to sniff at the gap in the stones, and then retreated, as if he did not like what he's smelled. Jon tried to grab him by the scruff of his neck and haul him bodily inside the ring, no easy task; the wolf weighed as much as he did, and was stronger by far. "Ghost, what's wrong with you?" It was not like him to be so unsettled. In the end Jon had to give it up.

Why would he baulk after sniffing the gap specifically? That part is something that convinced me, at least in part, that there is something protecting the Fist...the part where I'm not convinced is, like I said before, what's the point of the ward if later Ghost entered the ringfort anyway? Feather may be right there, that something removed the ward? Making it safe for Ghost to enter...but I don't see what impact this may have on the rest of the story... Maybe Jon will return to the Fist?

[Music Loving Chemist.]

Where exactly is it stated that Ghost entered the ring? I was under the impression that he never has... I thought that he went out hunting and came back later when Jon left with his small ranging party.

[brut]

It is actually implied. The wording is that Ghost spent "most of the time" hunting, which means that he spent "some time" on the Fist.

[alienarea]

And, I think Ghost sensed a disturbance in the force around the ringfort.

Fixed in Skywalker mode. Apologies, couldn't resist.

For adding something new(?):

Have we looked at a connection between eyes, bones and winter? I wonder whether the Weeper (and Thistle) remember an old ritual about taking out the eyes, if this might be an entry point for winter (=blue light) to reanimate the bones who remember until broken.

IRL we have a saying about a chill getting to ones bones, mayhaps that was the starting point for GRRM?