Heresy 29

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 29

So why Heresy asks you? Assuming you haven’t been here before – and the short answer is that that we challenge more orthodox beliefs that Jon Snow is Azor Ahai, that the Children will teach Bran Stark how to defeat the Others and that Danaerys Targaryen will save Westeros with her amazing dragons.

We're not in the business of challenging canon, but of challenging entrenched (but unsupported) beliefs about what is canon. We are, on occasion, accused of making some tenuous connections as we grope towards an understanding of what's really going on, but far too much of the orthodoxy which we challenge is even less well founded and hallowed only by repetition.

As is well known much of the story of the Game of Thrones, and its protagonists, is based upon the historical 15^th century Wars of the Roses, but the overarching game of Ice and Fire is equally clearly based on folklore, some Norse, but mainly Celtic and a lot of time is spent on these threads in relating it to GRRM’s text.

This isn’t to say we know the answers, but the parallels and textual clues are definitely there and while GRRM is obviously mixing and matching to create his own story this approach is we think bringing us to a much better understanding of where the story is headed, of the admitted relationship between the Children and the Others, the true significance of the Starks, and the identification of the Three-eyed-Crow, not as an avatar of the dead man in the tree, but as the Morrigan, a protagonist in her own right.

Its unorthodox, certainly, but unlike crackpottery the heresies are very firmly rooted in the text and the sources of that text.

We question lots of things, ranging from the timelines to the building of the Wall and who Mance Rayder really is and why, but we do, nevertheless argue. All we insist upon in this thread is that discussion – and arguments – be conducted with reference to the text, a respect for the opinions of others, and above all with great good humour.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

I'll set up in the corner if no ones claimed that space :)

[Black Crow]

That was quick...

Previous heresies are linked below for reference, but unless it’s a particularly dreary night outside and you have an intravenous coffee supply set up, I’d recommend you just stick to Heresy 6, which includes a complete and invaluable transcript of Old Nan’s tales, and Heresy 10 where we first discussed GRRM’s email comparing the Others to an icy version of the Sidhe, and what we found when we looked into them. Otherwise just dive straight in to the current thread and we’ll be happy to explain what has gone before…

Heresy five (with links to earlier heresies),

Heresy six, (inc. the complete Old Nan’s Tales)

Heresy seven,

Heresy eight,

Heresy nine,

Heresy ten, (with the introduction of the Sidhe)

Heresy eleven,

heresy twelve

heresy thirteen

http://asoiaf.wester...8801-heresy-14/

http://asoiaf.wester...9643-heresy-15/

http://asoiaf.wester...0033-heresy-16/

http://asoiaf.wester...0554-heresy-17/

http://asoiaf.wester...0972-heresy-18/

http://asoiaf.wester...1492-heresy-19/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/71971-heresy-20/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/72274-heresy-21/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/74304-heresy-23/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/74991-heresy-24/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/75530-heresy-25/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/75895-heresy-26/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/76163-heresy-27/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/76591-heresy-28/

[Little Wing]

Okay, the question I have, small as it is, is about Stark melancholy. I'm on a re-read, and in Ned's first chapter the seriousness and melancholy of the Starks is mentioned quite often. I get the sternness of the North and Ned says something to the effect that laughing can get you killed in the North from the cold, but why melancholy... hm - Why so melancholy, Starks?

[Melifeather]

How do you link to a post? I didn't think far ahead enough to realize that my post regarding astrology was too far towards the end of Heresy 28 to be brought over into 29. And our discussion regarding Summerhall should be brought here also.

[Little Wing]

You just click the number at the top of the post you're linking.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Okay, the question I have, small as it is, is about Stark melancholy. I'm on a re-read, and in Ned's first chapter the seriousness and melancholy of the Starks is mentioned quite often. I get the sternness of the North and Ned says something to the effect that laughing can get you killed in the North from the cold, but why melancholy... hm - Why so melancholy, Starks?

Have lived in Minnesota for 7 years, I can tell you after 7 months of cold, and cloudy skies, I often felt melancholy. I don't think I truely understood the word til I lived there.

@Feather Crystal just click on the muliQuote button then change threads, and it will reappear, click on post.

[Melifeather]

I have lived in WI/MN for nearly 50 years and long winters can make me melancholy as well! But, I am wondering if there is a story of a Stark that was killed when laughing?

[Melifeather]

Here is the link for the astrology Age reasoning:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/76591-heresy-28/page__st__380#entry3821721

[Little Wing]

Well then every house in the North should also be melancholy from the cold? The wildlings? The description was actually of Robert in that chapter, that he looked as melancholy as a Stark - not a Northerner, a Stark...

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Starks are physically described as having long faces. Example Arya "horseface". Maybe it contributes to the notion that they're melancholic? I can't imagine Lyanna or Brandon being like Ned, granted Ned has had to resurrect his house from the ashes.

[Little Wing]

Yeah, I agree about Lyanna and Brandon. It's just the wording of it - "as melancholy as a Stark" like it's a family trait and a Lyanna or a Brandon are exception from the "rule". Also, in Cat's chapter, Ned says: "I ought to know better than to argue with a Tully." Again, a family trait of some kind - stubbornness or being right all the time... and for Starks it's melancholy, among other things...

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

If the Starks overthrew the Night's King who was an Ally to the Others, they would certainly have a reason to not to be the most chipper of houses. Maybe "Winter is coming" is not so much a war cry, but more like "We're doomed", as it's only a matter of time before winter does come.

[Black Crow]

Well maybe it comes from bearing a heavy curse - the Stark in Winterfell business

[Little Wing]

Yep, agree with both points, that's what I'm thinking too, that the melancholy thing could be seen as another clue pointing to the Starks' complicated business with Winter. No wonder Ned didn't stay alive for long, we would have found out something about the curse and/or family history...

ETA: Maybe Jon will set things aright again between the Starks and Winter?

[Melifeather]

The part of my earlier discourse on astrology that I wanted to develop further was the discussion of the three ages: Aries, Pisces and Aquarius. As already stated, I believe anyone involved with Ram blowing belongs in the Age of Aries, the R'hllorists and Daenerys belongs with the Age of Pisces, and the Starks, Moonsingers and particularly, Arya belong to the Age of Aquarius.

Each Age had their sun-god:

Aries: The Last Hero

Pisces: Azor Ahai

Aquarius: is yet to be revealed

Many characters will think their "champion" will become the next "god" and anybody else will be a "false prophet". JonCon, Varys and Illyrio are supporting Aegon, Melisandre, (at the moment) is championing Stannis, Benerro thinks its Daenerys, Moqorro is with Victarion, but I think he's with Benerro in supporting Dany, some readers think its Jon, but I'm beginning to wonder now if it will be Arya.

[Melifeather]

Well that idea went over like a lead balloon. :ohwell:

Perhaps this is a difference between America and the UK? How popular is Christianity in the UK? In America, many claim that our country was founded on it, although I, the First Amendment of our Constitution, and Pres John Adams would beg to differ! 73% of Americans claim to be Christians. That's why I thought my post would be so controversial. It's kind of embarrassing that it was received with such a "ho-hum". :blushing:

*edited for more clever phrasing.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Well that landed with a big, clunk. :ohwell:

Perhaps this is a difference between America and the UK? How popular is Christianity in the UK? In America, many claim that our country was founded on it, although I, the First Amendment of our Constitution, and Pres John Adams would beg to differ! 73% of Americans claim to be Christians. That's why I thought my post would be so controversial. It's kind of embarrassing that it was received with such a "ho-hum". :blushing:

There are so many alternative explanations put forward for the origin of religious stories and ideals that one more, even though it is new to me and related to the source material, is not particularly shocking.

Simply put, I'm not familiar enough respond. Although if you like I can say:

YOU DON'T KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!

but having already admitted that I don't know any better, it doesn't do me any good :D

[butterbumps!]

I like the idea of the Andals conquering the First Men with dragons, and perhaps weirwood arrows were also used then by the Starks to hold them off at the neck. We already suspect that weirwood arrows were used when Torrhen knelt for Aegon the Conqueror, but that shouldn't automatically negate that they could have been used earlier during the Andal invasion.

Thanks for the explanation earlier.

Does the suspicion that weirwood arrows were used in Torrhen's time come from Bran's vision of the young man producing them in the godswood?

Are there hints how/ why dragons first left Westeros? I'm talking about in the earliest times when Martin said dragons inhabited the entire planet? I was wondering if dragonsteel/ obsidian could have the same effect on dragons that it does on the Others (based on the dual elemental quality). Weirwood sounds like a good option too.

There's something alluring about the Andals bringing dragons and this being the origin of AA, but I'd thought they'd more likely left Essos to flee Valyrian dragonlords rather than bring fire and blood of their own....something to think on.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Thanks for the explanation earlier.

Does the suspicion that weirwood arrows were used in Torrhen's time come from Bran's vision of the young man producing them in the godswood?

Are there hints how/ why dragons first left Westeros? I'm talking about in the earliest times when Martin said dragons inhabited the entire planet? I was wondering if dragonsteel/ obsidian could have the same effect on dragons that it does on the Others (based on the dual elemental quality). Weirwood sounds like a good option too.

There's something alluring about the Andals bringing dragons and this being the origin of AA, but I'd thought they'd more likely left Essos to flee Valyrian dragonlords rather than bring fire and blood of their own....something to think on.

We know from a reading that Martin did from the World book about Aegon's conquest that Brandon Snow (King Torrhen's bastard half-brother) wanted Torrhen to let him shoot weirwood arrows at the dragons, but that Torrhen wouldn't let him, which has led some to speculate that the person in the vision was Brandon Snow.

As for the dragons, maybe the ones in Westeros were Ice Dragons who didn't survive the Battle for the Dawn? Or maybe there's kind of a Dragon Age dragonspawn thing going on, where what Bran saw in his 3EC dream was a bunch of Ice Dragons in the Land of Always Winter gathering up armies, just like the demonic dragons in Dragon Age and the flying Nazgul in Lord of the Rings (imagine the scene at Minas Morgul from the movie, but ice instead of green-death-whatever)?