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Heresy 36


Black Crow

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Welcome to Heresy 36, the New Year edition.

Heresy is an eclectic thread which is all about challenging orthodoxy, as we try to figure out what’s really going on not in the Game of Thrones but the over-arching Game of Ice and Fire. We primarily challenge the easy orthodoxy that the Others are evil incarnate; that the Children of the Forest give Bran the knowledge how to defeat the Others and that he will pass this knowledge on to Jon, who is of course Azor Ahai, and will save Westeros astride one of Dany’s amazing dragons before taking his rightful place alongside her on the Iron Throne as Jon Targaryen first of his name.

Instead we look at who or what the Others really are and why some of them at least are Craster’s sons, noting both GRRM’s reference to them being like the Sidhe made of ice and to the way they behave not as an invading army but like the Wild Hunt of legend.

Conversely its hard to avoid the fact that the Children (who so far have conspicuously said nothing to Bran about the Others, far less hinted how they can be defeated) are not just of the Forest, but of the Darkness as well, that darkness feared and hated by Melisandre and the followers of the Lord of Light. Certainly whatever the real motives of the Children, it can cheerfully be assumed that they are no friends of the Red pyromaniacs.

As for Jon, we have this passage, where he’s reunited with Ghost, just outside the Wall:

Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre’s. He had a weirwood’s eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they’d found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey, and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as snow.

Jon isn’t Azor Ahai. “He belongs to the old gods, this one.” He’s on the other side.

We also look at the Wall itself and of late have come to a certain consensus that it is not a defensive structure at all but marks the magical boundary between the realms of Ice (or Faerie), and Men and given the curious silence in the histories as to when and how it was built, many of us have come to think that it was not built after the Long Night to prevent the return of the Others but is much, much older.

Inevitably then this means looking at the Starks, the Wall and beyond, and drawing not just on the books themselves but on the real world mythologies, chiefly Celtic but Norse as well, which firmly underpin Martin’s version of the Faerie realms, leading us through the Mabinogion, the Tain bo Culaidh and the Norse Eddas amongst others to discover Bran the Blessed, Tam Lin, Cu Chulainn and above all the Morrigan.

As heretics we neither promote nor defend a particular viewpoint, in fact we argue quite a lot, but we do reckon that the Starks’ role in all of this is a lot darker and more ambiguous than once it seemed. They are after all the Kings of Winter.

If you’re already actively involved in the Heresy business it needs no further introduction. If you’re new, or simply intimidated by the sheer scale of it all, not to mention the astonishing speed with which it moves, and wonder what we’re talking about and why we’ve come to these peculiar ideas, just ask. We’re friendly and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes.

Happy New Year

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In Heresy 30 < x < 35, the phrase "second hand fire" came up about Lady Stoneheart's condition. Not only that she was dead for so long, but because the fire came "second hand" from Beric and not from Thoros. Maybe there is a similar phenomenon for wights, based on WW killing them or not and/or how long the body has been dead before wightifing. Second hand ice?

Around the same time we were discussing the intelligence level of different wights: (1) Othor and Jafer are pretty determined and (2) Small Paul going straight for the Craster baby. We know that Small Paul was definitely killed by a White Walker/Other. So proximity could be a factor in Small Paul turning and his relative intelligence level as a wight. We also have Waymar Royce definitely being killed by WW, with requisite proximity of extreme cold.

Lastly, Thistle. She is actively running from "hundreds" of wights. We see no WW, but they could be herding the wights. She has torn at or out her own eyes and bitten off her tongue, which may have been enough to kill her in conjunction with the extreme cold.

On the wild side of speculations, we have the case of Orell's eagle bursting into flames, possibly done by Mel. Thistle was just being sort-of-warged by Varamyr, so maybe she was somehow more susceptible to being wightified.

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Yes, I take your point. I have been wondering about this and, whether if it is magic ice crystals rather than an icy kiss (per the Red lot) which raises wights, then perhaps after the initial raising by Craster's boys, some of the stuff then falls off the wights themselves, who seem to be covered in hoar frost, and in effect spreads like a disease.

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Maybe the heavy curse of Craster is to have ice in his seed (i.e. he is a descendant of the Night King)? And that is why his sons are taken?

Being descended of the Nights King would certainly be consistent with bearing a heavy curse, but either way, yes, his sons are presumably being taken because like Adara they have Winter inside them.

Whether Jon also has Winter inside him remains to be seen.

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So, just finished a rewatching of Seasons 1 and 2, and during the Season 2 finale, we have the scene where Luwin asks Osha to slit his throat so that he can have a quick death; this is also what happens in the books. In the TV show, this occurs at the heart tree, and IIRC it happens at the heart tree in the books as well. Now, from that one Bran chapter in Dance, we know that the First Men gave sacrifices of some sort in front of the heart trees, and from the Theon sneek-peak chapter it seems that Bran/BR/3EC/the Morrigan/Odin/Jesus or whoever else you want to put in there is trying to get Stannis to sacrifice Theon in front of a heart tree.

The point of this is that it seems that spilling blood in front of a heart tree is something important, and we have Luwin's blood being spilled in front of Winterfell's Tree... It makes me wonder what significance this could have for the future, especially since it was also a willing sacrifice on Luwin's part (and traditionally in literature self sacrifice has important impact on magic and such)

I was wondering about this... I wonder whether it is a blood sacrifice of some kind, either voluntary or otherwise that first "activates" a heart tree, joining it to the vision/mystical network and that subsequent bloodletting gives the whole lattice a "power-up" or boost as it were. A face carved on the tree confirms it is now "active" or alive.

Did Luwin forge the magic link of his maester chain?

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If you're talking about the Starks bending the knee to Targs, that's more a political than a magical pact. Or you're talking about something else entirely :)

Yes, I meant exactly when Torrhen kneeled to Aegon. I was wondering if the pact between the Starks and Targs was still valid and whether or not the old gods honored this pact? It seems to me that theirs was a pact between ice and fire, uniting everything together. It also seems to have deteriorated over the years, but Rhaegar appeared to know what had to be done to strengthen it.

When Rhaegar was young he read something that he understood was to be his purpose in life. He had read that he was to become a warrior so he took up a sword and was motivated to learn how to use one well. He also read something regarding the Prince that was Promised prophecy and pursued Lyanna because of it. Where is this information coming from? How did the Targaryens come to have such prophetic powers?

While sleeping with his head resting on a weirwood stump, Jaime has fever dreams. In part of his dream he sees five of his old Kingsguard brothers under Aerys II. Beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rides Rhaegar Targaryen. Prince Rhaegar burns with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. He tells Jaime: "I left my wife and children in your hands."

I am assuming Bloodraven sent this dream to Jaime since he was sleeping on a weirwood stump. What was he trying to tell him? The bolded area above regarding Rhaegar's appearance is symbolic, but what is it supposed to mean?

"Cold light" cannot be R'hllor, because that light would be hot or warm. What else could be "cold light"? The White Walkers are definitely "cold", but they don't appear during daylight hours, so no "light". Their bright, burning blue eyes seem to be what I would describe as a cold light, however. Rhaegar being illuminated could simply mean that his spirit power was "turned on" to speak with Jaime, but then how did he speak after he turned dark?

"White" should represent the north, Starks, weirwoods, and old gods.

"Red" should represent Targaryens and dragons, but would it necessarily also include R'hllor? The Targaryens haven't been connected to R'hllor of their own accord. Benerro has claimed Daenerys, but Daenerys hasn't claimed his faith.

"Dark" seems to also represent the enemy of R'hllor, the Great Other, and the long night or winter months.

I hope I'm not straying too far off the Heresy path, but like I said, I think there is importance with Jon being both a Stark and a Targ...just not in the way most readers expect. Yes, Ghost is of the north. I think Jon was just recognizing that his red eyes did not mean a connection to R'hllor, but rather to reflect the red sap and leaves of the weirwood trees.

I'm also trying to sort out why Bran was selected over all his other brothers and sisters. His mother was a Tully, so the maternal connection doesn't seem to be important in his case. If Lyanna being Jon's mother is what makes Jon important, why isn't it important for Bran? The only thing I can think of as to why Bran was selected is because Bloodraven saw into the future and knew Bran was going to be pushed by Jaime. We've discussed before how the third eye is opened and it usually took a near death experience to open it. All the Stark children are wargs, but not all wargs are greenseers. Was Bran a greenseer before he opened his third eye, or did the fall cause him to be a greenseer? And if Jojen was already a greenseer, why did Bran have to be the one to go to Bloodraven? It all just leads back to the old Pact and perhaps the children "sacrificed" as wards have to be Starks.

I know this a confusing, rambling post, but I want to add one more thing....I don't believe that White Walkers are Craster's sons. They may be taking those sons, but like you said, the faerie need human babies to walk around and function in the realm of men. Wouldn't it make more sense then if someone like Ramsay was one of Craster's sons? Roose thought Ramsay was his son due to his icy blue eye color, but maybe its an indicator that he's one of Craster's sons and is doing the bidding of the White Walkers in the realm of men? It would explain his love of wild hunts.

Then there's Ramsay's presence in Winterfell and his desire to have Jon come there. Will this pit Jon against the White Walkers? Perhaps Jon is a recognized threat?

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Did Luwin forge the magic link of his maester chain?

Yes its in the chapter of Clash of Kings where Luwin is explaining to Bran what the links represents. He has the Valyrian steel one which only one in a hundred study for. He's a bit circumspect in describing it as the higher mysteries - magic

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A new year and a new Heresy thread - very appropriate :cheers:

I feel I should re-post the dead becoming wights stuff from the previous thread if we're continuing the discussion... or try to condense what we've already said.

Let's say you are Ser Waymar Royce and you had the "honor" of being killed by an Other - you turn wight almost instantly. On the other (heh) hand, if you have the misfortune of being Thistle, the spearwife, and you die possibly of shock from being warged and self inflicted wounds, but most likely freeze from the eerie, unnatural cold that brings the Others, or they bring, (Varamyr says everything turned to ice as he watches on from One-Eye just before he sees the new and "improved" Thistle) you also rise almost instantly as a new member of the wight force. But if you die of, let's say a wildling or your own hatchet to the neck, like Othor, and no one burns you for a day or two (or longer?) - how do you turn wight? I think it's highly impractical for Others to give the "icy kiss" to each dead in order to make them wights. If the icy mists are them, just not corporeal, then that's an elegant solution. And it still means that the dead turn wight beyond the Wall, if the cold winds rise ie Others are about. If the cold mists hit them - they rise as wights.

Winter is coming sounds more and more ominous as we tinker out stuff... if they and their mists would spread through Westeros then brrr, it would sure be a wight Christmas...

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Yes its in the chapter of Clash of Kings where Luwin is explaining to Bran what the links represents. He has the Valyrian steel one which only one in a hundred study for. He's a bit circumspect in describing it as the higher mysteries - magic

Thanks! So there you have it... When he asks Osha to kill him there, he knows what he is doing.

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A new year and a new Heresy thread - very appropriate :cheers:

I feel I should re-post the dead becoming wights stuff from the previous thread if we're continuing the discussion... or try to condense what we've already said.

Let's say you are Ser Waymar Royce and you had the "honor" of being killed by an Other - you turn wight almost instantly. On the other (heh) hand, if you have the misfortune of being Thistle, the spearwife, and you die possibly of shock from being warged and self inflicted wounds, but most likely freeze from the eerie, unnatural cold that brings the Others, or they bring, (Varamyr says everything turned to ice as he watches on from One-Eye just before he sees the new and "improved" Thistle) you also rise almost instantly as a new member of the wight force. But if you die of, let's say a wildling or your own hatchet to the neck, like Othor, and no one burns you for a day or two (or longer?) - how do you turn wight? I think it's highly impractical for Others to give the "icy kiss" to each dead in order to make them wights. If the icy mists are them, just not corporeal, then that's an elegant solution. And it still means that the dead turn wight beyond the Wall, if the cold winds rise ie Others are about. If the cold mists hit them - they rise as wights.

Winter is coming sounds more and more ominous as we tinker out stuff... if they and their mists would spread through Westeros then brrr, it would sure be a wight Christmas...

I agree that to become a wight, you must be raised by the White Walkers via either direct contact or through their cold mist. The White Walkers can raise partially decomposed bodies or even animals if they wish as indicated by some of the descriptions of wights that we have seen, that's why even if you die of natural causes or by another human (Crow or wildling), you still should burn the body so that the White Walkers cannot reanimate it when they come near.

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@Feather - there was a thought a few heresies back that greenseeing was a Riverlands thing, hence the Bracken and Tully connection

Do you recall any reasons why that would be other than the families that Bloodraven, Bran and Jojen are from? There must be something more to it than that. Any First Men family should be able to birth greenseers, unless there had to be intermarriage at one time?

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Thanks! So there you have it... When he asks Osha to kill him there, he knows what he is doing.

On a superficial level he quite understandably just asks Osha to finish him off, to give him the gift of mercy as that dying archer does when Arya and the Hound find him. However the fact remains that despite being terribly wounded he chose to drag himself not just into the comparative peace of the godswood, but all the way to the heart-tree, and lay there bleeding all over it for some time before Bran and the gang found him.

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While sleeping with his head resting on a weirwood stump, Jaime has fever dreams. In part of his dream he sees five of his old Kingsguard brothers under Aerys II. Beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rides Rhaegar Targaryen. Prince Rhaegar burns with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. He tells Jaime: "I left my wife and children in your hands."

I am assuming Bloodraven sent this dream to Jaime since he was sleeping on a weirwood stump. What was he trying to tell him? The bolded area above regarding Rhaegar's appearance is symbolic, but what is it supposed to mean?

"Cold light" cannot be R'hllor, because that light would be hot or warm. What else could be "cold light"? The White Walkers are definitely "cold", but they don't appear during daylight hours, so no "light". Their bright, burning blue eyes seem to be what I would describe as a cold light, however. Rhaegar being illuminated could simply mean that his spirit power was "turned on" to speak with Jaime, but then how did he speak after he turned dark?

"White" should represent the north, Starks, weirwoods, and old gods.

"Red" should represent Targaryens and dragons, but would it necessarily also include R'hllor? The Targaryens haven't been connected to R'hllor of their own accord. Benerro has claimed Daenerys, but Daenerys hasn't claimed his faith.

"Dark" seems to also represent the enemy of R'hllor, the Great Other, and the long night or winter months.

That Jamie owes the Starks/Winter a debt consisting of protecting its scions to compensate for failing to protect Rhaegar's family? He is already doing this, of course, by sending Brienne out with oathkeeper (nice name...) even though rationally he cannot quite explain to himself why. We will see what comes of his encounter with Stoneheart.

I've suggested in another thread he may even been the hooded man Theon sees in Winterfell, should Roose be wary?

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Do you recall any reasons why that would be other than the families that Bloodraven, Bran and Jojen are from? There must be something more to it than that. Any First Men family should be able to birth greenseers, unless there had to be intermarriage at one time?

Its a while back, but as I recall we had an idea that specific traits might be linked to certain areas - warging in the North and greenseeing in the Riverlands

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On a superficial level he quite understandably just asks Osha to finish him off, to give him the gift of mercy as that dying archer does when Arya and the Hound find him. However the fact remains that despite being terribly wounded he chose to drag himself not just into the comparative peace of the godswood, but all the way to the heart-tree, and lay there bleeding all over it for some time before Bran and the gang found him.

But Luwin is a wise man, he wants his death to serve a purpose, if possible... He is not in a state to offer up any explanations. As a wilding Osha might well understand in any event.

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