Heresy 40

[Tyryan Lannister]

GUEST INTRO! Bwahahahah!

Welcome to Heresy 40, the newest incarnation of “The Wall, the Watch, and a Heresy”, the first Heresy thread started by Black Crow over a year ago. For those who know the ropes, continue your discussions of snarks and grumpkins. For the not yet initiated, feel free to read on…

What is Heresy? What we do here is take the story’s face value and largely discard it, instead trying to read between, underneath, over, and beyond the lines within the text so as to figure out what is really going on in A Song of Ice and Fire. To this end, we use not only what is present in the text, but also interviews etc. cataloged at “So Spake Martin”, Martin’s own blog, the Dunk and Egg stories, the World App, and, once they are released, the World Book and the newest short story, which Matin recently indicated will focus on the build up to the first Dance of Dragons roughly 200 years before present. We will also occasionally utilize the wiki and the HBO series as means to inform, but we fully realize and acknowledge that they are not reliable sources.

As evidenced from the original title of Black Crow’s first Heresy thread, the focus of Heresy is the North: the Wall, the Watch, the Starks, Jon, the direwolves, the wildlings, Mance, Craster, the Children of the Forest, Bran, Bloodraven, the wights, and the White Walkers.

The main premise that we have arrived at as a community is that the White Walkers are not the agents of the Great Other who will be destroyed by Dany and Jon riding dragons against the forces of darkness. Instead, while viewing the White Walkers as an antagonist, we also view the agents of Fire (the dragons, Mel, possibly Dany herself) as equal antagonists.

That is, however, about the full extent of our agreement. We argue here… a lot. But we also keep it to a civil discourse and have, over the course of the past year plus, developed into a bit of a close nit community. That being said, please don’t feel discouraged by the topics at hand or the pace at which we sometimes move. We welcome and appreciate all outside views, as they can help reinforce, renew, or eventually completely contradict and remove many arguments that we have.

To that end, one of the main areas of our discussions is on the real world myths upon which we see Martin as having been inspired. Particularly, we look at the myths of the Celtic and Norse peoples (specifically the myths surrounding the Morrigan and the Ragnorak).

So join in, have fun, speak up, and stick them with the pointy end.

:commie: :commie: :commie: :commie:

DISCLAIMER: We here are focused on the Game of Ice and Fire, not the Game of Thrones. While we will not yell at you for adding in a Thrones type concept, unless it’s being done as part of a joke or to support an Ice and Fire argument, we will kindly direct you to a more appropriate thread. We are also not interested in the hot button topics such as RLJ or (f)Aegon and are not looking to engage in arguments relative to those topics unless it relates to the Game of Ice and Fire.

[Black Crow]

Normally I'd do this bit except when I'm away but as its episode 40 and the much longer established R+L=J is currently eating our dust, I thought it was appropriate to invite the Hand to contribute a guest intro

[redriver]

Normally I'd do this bit except when I'm away but as its episode 40 and the much longer established R+L=J is currently eating our dust, I thought it was appropriate to invite the Hand to contribute a guest intro

Ah,did you see the "horse race" post I made there?

[Little Wing]

Nice intro, Tyryan! :thumbsup:

Wow, Heresy 40 already... Bring it! :commie:

[Tyryan Lannister]

Nice intro, Tyryan! :thumbsup:

Wow, Heresy 40 already... Bring it! :commie:

:cheers:

[Black Crow]

Ah,did you see the "horse race" post I made there?

Haven't found it yet, but some kind soul posted links to previous episodes of the thread by which I see it originally started in May 2006 - five and a half years before the first Heresy!

Rather than crow (har) I'd just like to endorse what Tyryan said, we have developed into a close knit, but welcoming, community here which is a major reason why we are the most dynamic thread on the board - and we have some good ideas.

I've launched Sam the Last Hero? on the main board so we'll see what comes of it.

[yestoitall]

...I'll post the main drift under the Sam thread, but coming back to what Little Wing said:

Sam - approved by the Old Gods

He did convert, in a rather public way, in full view of the weirwood eye...

[Mace Cooterian]

So join in, have fun, speak up, and stick them with the pointy end.

:commie: :commie: :commie: :commie:

DISCLAIMER: We here are focused on the Game of Ice and Fire, not the Game of Thrones. While we will not yell at you for adding in a Thrones type concept, unless it’s being done as part of a joke or to support an Ice and Fire argument, we will kindly direct you to a more appropriate thread. We are also not interested in the hot button topics such as RLJ or (f)Aegon and are not looking to engage in arguments relative to those topics unless it relates to the Game of Ice and Fire.

They don't call him the Hand for nothing. :bowdown:

[wolfmaid7]

Cudoes Tyryion on the intro indeed. Can't blink much,blink and the next thing you know Heresy 40 is up :dunno:

On the topic of Sam, while i don't think he will be " The Last Hero" i do believe he will have a crucial part in the figuring out of important details to aid in the war to come.

But i must admit it will be cool if the entire story behind the LH was a bit of an exaggeration. I mean everything Sam did with that Other was a " Hiccup" and a series of rather unfortunate events that worked in his favor.However Cersie made an excellent point to Geoffrey" history is what you make it";so they may be a bit of embellishment somewhere down the line.

I think Sam might be Merlin to the LH's Arthur.The man behind the legend.

[Little Wing]

...I'll post the main drift under the Sam thread, but coming back to what Little Wing said:

Sam - approved by the Old Gods

He did convert, in a rather public way, in full view of the weirwood eye...

Well, yeah... I know. And the Old Gods approve :smug: *goes off to pray under her walnut tree*

[Black Crow]

If there is a point to this comparison, it is to challenge the expectation that the Last Hero/ Prince that was Promised/Azor Ahai reborn is or rather was the mighty warrior of prophecy. Here we have Sam, fat and cowardly Sam, but the only character so far to slay one of the Others. As Jon tells him, he's actually done a lot and survived worse, but we know what was really going on and how the slaying was an accident.

GRRM has said a lot about avoiding the usual fantasy tropes and the unreliability of stories and legends. Sam isn't Conan the Barbarian and never will be and I think his story arc is telling us that there won't be a mighty warrior with a big sword riding a dragon to victory. What's going to happen is going to be a lot grittier and less heroic.

[Tyryan Lannister]

As I pointed out at the end of H39, I feel that Sam is (in addition to other things, of course) Martin's take on/homage to Sam in LotR--the sidekick to the hero without whom the hero would not have succeeded but who goes unheralded by the rest of the world; the unsung hero character.

[Arya Mormont]

If there is a point to this comparison, it is to challenge the expectation that the Last Hero/ Prince that was Promised/Azor Ahai reborn is or rather was the mighty warrior of prophecy. Here we have Sam, fat and cowardly Sam, but the only character so far to slay one of the Others. As Jon tells him, he's actually done a lot and survived worse, but we know what was really going on and how the slaying was an accident.

GRRM has said a lot about avoiding the usual fantasy tropes and the unreliability of stories and legends. Sam isn't Conan the Barbarian and never will be and I think his story arc is telling us that there won't be a mighty warrior with a big sword riding a dragon to victory. What's going to happen is going to be a lot grittier and less heroic.

But people expecting a warrior king & getting someone meek instead isn't exactly new. It's New Testament.

[Sam with Hooters]

Re: Crackpottery at its finest

All of this is from memory, so someone please correct me if I've forgotten something from the books. Alas, I only have hard copies, not e-searchable e-versions.

The various "Heresy" threads have explored the possible connections between ASOIAF and Norse and Celtic mythologies, but GRRM certainly could've had other influences as well.

What if his cosmology is based instead on the Hindu mythos and its perpetual cycle of creation - preservation - destruction -- re-creation? The catch is that if "fire consumes but ice preserves," the Others are cast in the role of preservers, not destroyers. Could this be why ASOIAF doesn't have any creation stories? (At least I don't remember any). ASOIAFworld could be stuck between destruction and preservation, unable to move on to the next stage, a cosmic reboot.

You're probably thinking, "If the Others are the preservers, who are the destroyers?" I'll get to that in a minute.

I postulate that ASAOFworld's "life thermostat" was originally in perfect balance, with fewer mammals (and other warm-blooded creatures like birds -- I'll just lump them all under "mammals" for convenience). Although there were a few mammals (Leaf mentions wolves, deer, lions, and a few others), the populations were small. We have some -- though not conclusive -- evidence that the Old Races left a smaller eco-footprint than the humans:

1. If Wun Wun is a typical Giant, they are vegetarian.

2. The COFT lived in harmony with nature and used all-natural materials for their dwellings and equipment. They are probably vegetarian as well. Leaf outright admits they reproduce slowly and have never been numerous.

3. The COFT could be symbiotes with the weirwoods and draw some of their nourishment or life-force directly from the trees, dryad-style. The singers Bran sees enthroned 'midst the roots don't move much, either.

This supports the fire ~ life, cold ~ stasis theory and the saying "only death can pay for life." Life (as we know it, anyway) has to be fueled with food and oxygen, just as a fire needs air and solid sustenance to burn.

Everything was just fine until the humans came (with all their pets and livestock). The First Men were exactly that, invaders or refugees (from another planet? Another dimension? Maybe we'll find out someday).

There they were, a huge monkey wrench in the works, constantly eating and breathing and worst of all, reproducing. They spread across the world like a conflagration in ever-increasing numbers, wrecking the ecosystem.

The Others tried to restore the balance as best they could (by killing as many mammals as possible), only to be thrown back and trapped behind the Wall.

Their goals may be:

1. To restore the balance; or

2. To destoy the world in a cataclysm so it can be re-created (or rebooted); or

3. To bring the world to stasis ("absolute zero"), either so it can be rebooted or it can remain their own eternally, without competition from other races.

Again and again the storytellers stress the Others' hostility towards warm-blooded creatures specifically.

Can anyone find evidence of:

The Others associating with any creature that isn't undead or cold-blooded (ice spiders)? (Other than the Night King, who was probably transformed).

A wightified cold-blooded creature?

Any hostility towards birds?

The clue that the Night King married an Other and "sacrificed to them" is code for "joined their cause." Although "sacrificing" was eventually interpreted as religious, it probably originally meant wiping out warm-blooded creatures. Craster gives the Others sheep if he runs out of sons. I think we can also assume the dragons are warm-blooded.

Faced with genocide, the humans rallied, allying with the COFT and Old Races. After all, IF the Others want to destroy the planet or reduce it to perfect statis, this threatens ALL species, sentient or not.

Wightifying is a natural extension of the Others' philosopy -- it transforms fueled-life into fuelless-life, since wights don't eat, breathe, or reproduce. It changes creatures into Other-compatible forms. (It's possible fuelless-life is *magically* fuelled; we don't have enough information to tell yet).

[bold]However, since the Others are now resurfacing after being dormant for so long, they must have a new victory plan, and perhaps a new ultimate weapon.

Scary, huh?[/bold]

A few points this crackpottery doesn't explain -- and, yes, I expect these Heresy threads to keep multiplying like old man Frey:

1. Why the COFT would ally with humans, unless the Others were also a threat to them, OR it was the only way to keep the humans from destroying all the weirwoods.

2. Where Craster's sons fit into the picture.

3. Ditto for the conscious wights.

4. Where greyscale came from and how it works. Could it be an early, failed attempt by the Others to nullify mammals and dragons? After all, a fully-petrified creature doesn't eat, breathe, or reproduce any more than a wight does. Greyscale also has the advantage of not requiring cold to work. Assuming the Others themselves are immune to it, it is (or is a magical analogy for) a biological weapon, just as the dragons are analogies to nuclear weapons.

[Note: I sure hope this formats properly. I pasted it from WordPad].

[Black Crow]

But people expecting a warrior king & getting someone meek instead isn't exactly new. It's New Testament.

That may well be so, but given that most readers out there are expecting Azor Ahai to return complete with flaming sword and speculating on just who will ride the three dragons could be in for a surprise.

From the beginning Heresy hasn't just been about questioning this obvious (and rather cheesy) outcome, but looking at a much more complex and far more intelligent story.

[Black Crow]

Re: Crackpottery at its finest...

You lost the bold, but otherwise it worked fine.

Its a long post and we have over the last year and more discussed many of these themes. I think part of the problem with explaining Heresy to relative newcomers is that the core theories aren't crackpottery, in the "hey I've had an idea" sense, but have evolved through considerable discussion over a long period.

There's certainly a big environmental issue here, but as we keep pointing out in relation to your first question there is no evidence that the Children were allies of the First Men in the fight against the Others during the Long Night and indeed GRRM has confirmed there is a connection of some kind between them. Nor have they been sleeping under the ice or anywhere else for the last 8,000 years. As Osha says, things are different north of the Wall.

As to your second question Craster is another human known to associate with the Others/Sidhe. His wives believe that his sons become white walkers and whether you believe this or not there's no doubt that the white lot visited his place frequently without killing everything warm blooded, or raising wights.

The wights, not the white walkers are what's new and figuring out why is one of the things that keeps us going.

Greyscale, not much discussed so far on these pages although I do have a recollection of GRRM confirming that disease will feature much more.

[Tyryan Lannister]

I have a feeling that greyscale is kind of a cursed blessing--it disfigures you while making it that you cannot be wighted. Val says, not that Shireen is "unclean" or something like that, but that Shireen is DEAD. If this is actually the case, then she is sort of a sentient wight and possibly might not be able to be wighted after real death.

Kind of like sickle cell anemia wherein you have to blood disorder that is likely going to take your life early (ie. at 50 instead of 80) but you are close to immune to malaria.

[Little Wing]

Interesting crow facts. And a cute video ^_^

[jon rr stark]

As I pointed out at the end of H39, I feel that Sam is (in addition to other things, of course) Martin's take on/homage to Sam in LotR--the sidekick to the hero without whom the hero would not have succeeded but who goes unheralded by the rest of the world; the unsung hero character.

A wild guess here. Sam finds lightbringer possibly with the assistance of the FM who is there with him. Or the very least how to slay a dragon. He has always reminded me of frodos sam. He will do heroic deeds just like LotR Sam but he will not be the ultimate torchbeared or indeed lightbringer bearer.

[JonNonRegis]

1. Why the COFT would ally with humans, unless the Others were also a threat to them, OR it was the only way to keep the humans from destroying all the weirwoods.

3. Ditto for the conscious wights.

4. Where greyscale came from and how it works.

1. The books do suggest the CotF were hit pretty hard by the Others. There is good reason to believe that's true, too.

For instance, notice that the entrance to the cave of the CotF is warded against wights (Others foot soldiers). Is this a coincidence? I doubt it. Others/wights and CotF do not get along at all.

The fact that the Wall is warded in just the same way against animate corpses (cf. Coldhands who cannot use the Black Gate) strongly suggests that the CotF did, indeed, help the First Men build the Wall.

3. Wight consciousness appears to be related to the state of decay of the host body. It would be interesting seeing how far back in time wights can have been killed, and still be reasonably effective foot soldiers for the Others. Ten years? A hundred? Ice preserves... the North is certainly the best possible place for them to create such an army.

4. I think greyscale is just a basic bacterial infection. Mr. Martin's world has no concept of such matters... though since it does have lenses, eventually someone will realize it's possible to create lenses that look at very, very small things (not just very, very large things in outer space).