Heresy 44

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 44, this week’s edition of the long running series that offers an alternative interpretation of the Song of Ice and Fire, currently in conjunction with its own re-read franchise run by Nanother on the main board http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79306-old-gods-cold-gods-and-starks-a-heretic-re-read/

So what’s Heresy all about and why is it so successful?

Heresy essentially is all about challenging the orthodoxy that the Others are evil incarnate; that the Children of the Forest will give Bran the knowledge of how to defeat the Others and that Jon is Azor Ahai, and will save Westeros astride one of Dany’s amazing dragons before taking his rightful place alongside her on the Iron Throne as Jon Targaryen First of his Name. We also have a very strong suspicion that far from being something built by men as a bulwark against the Others, the Wall may itself be the cause of the imbalance in the seasons. Thus far from being a disaster there is a feeling that its fall will be necessary to achieve a resolution of the conflict between Ice and Fire.

In general, whilst not immune from crackpottery and outbreaks of light-heartedness, the Heresies have a very sound basis in the text, especially as the story has moved on from those easy assumptions in the beginning to become much more complex, darker and a lot less certain – especially as far as the Starks are concerned.

It is an eclectic thread covering a wide variety of topics. Some have been or are raised as topics in their own right elsewhere in the forum, but through experience we’ve found that ranging freely allows us to properly discuss different aspects of the story both in their own immediate context and to see where they may fit into the wider heresies.

We look closely for example at who or what the Others really are, noting both GRRM’s reference to them being like the Sidhe made of ice and to the way they behave not as an invading army but like the Wild Hunt of legend. Inevitably then this means drawing not just on the books themselves but on the real world mythologies, chiefly Celtic but Norse as well, which underpin Martin’s version of the Faerie realms, leading us through the Arthurian Legends, the Mabinogion, the Tain bo Culaidh and the Norse Eddas amongst others to discover Bran the Blessed, Tam Lin, Cu Chulainn and above all the Morrigan – the Crow Goddess, associated with death and with three human aspects as maiden, mother and crone.

It was the Crone who let the first raven into the world and we note the way in which crows (same difference) dominate the whole story, which is why some of us have our suspicions about their true significance, because the crows in short, including Mormont’s (and now Jon’s) raven, appear to be players in their own right rather than convenient vessels for warging.

Conversely its hard to avoid the fact that the Children (who so far have conspicuously said nothing to Bran about the Others) are not just of the Forest, but of the Darkness as well, that darkness feared and hated by Melisandre and the followers of the Lord of Light. Certainly whatever the real motives of the Children, it can cheerfully be assumed that they are no friends of the Red lot.

As heretics we neither promote nor defend a particular viewpoint, in fact we argue quite a lot which is what makes the thread cycle so much fun, but we do reckon that the Starks’ role in all of this is a lot darker and more ambiguous than once it seemed. They are after all the Kings of Winter.

If you’re already actively involved in the Heresy business it needs no further introduction. If you’re new, or simply intimidated by the sheer scale of it all, not to mention the astonishing speed with which it moves, and wonder what we’re talking about and why we’ve come to these peculiar ideas, just ask. We’re friendly and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes.

All that we ask is that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

[the sword in the night]

Just to continue that last few posts:

On the show, we'll learn about Rhaeger from Arstan telling Danny. It is known.

[WWCED]

Going back to the whereabouts of Benjen from the last Heresy, I have an idea that goes back to Bran's dream while he's in a coma in AGoT. The TEC tells him to look down and he sees all of Westeros and the people he sees are mostly Starks and the people he loves best. Also included in his vision are the closest of family friends, Maester Luwin (who may have spotted the comet), Hodor and Ser Rodrik.

He then sees the threats which are the Lannisters and their vassals, and then he is then transported to Vaes Dothrak and Asshai. This section concerns events that are soon going to affect Westeros soon enough.

The last part is in North. He sees his brother Jon and then he goes to the Lands of Always Winter and into the Heart and he cries out afraid, and he feels the hot tears on his cheek, crying from what he sees.

Looking at the totality of the vision the only missing family member is Benjen, or is he actually missing in the dream?

Now most likely Benjen has joined the choir invisible, but maybe he saw his uncle is some sort of terrible service to the Great Other, or he was a living sacrifice that could not die where he was being drained for his Stark blood, or other kind of thrall to winter. I'm sure some of this has been covered before in previous heresies, so comment away!

[Greenfyre]

Now most likely Benjen has joined the choir invisible, but maybe he saw his uncle is some sort of terrible service to the Great Other

Possible, but I'm inclined to think not for two reasons:

1. The 3EC explicitly tells Bran that it's because of what he sees in the heart of Winter that he must live. Benjen doesn't seem like adequate justification for that; I think it must've been something more akin to a threat to Bran's entire way of life, Westeros as a whole.

2. The Great Other Who Must Not Be Named is likely as nonexistent as all other gods in this series (barring the WeirNet, if you count it).

[Eira Seren]

from previous thread

Runaway Penguin My recent pet hypothesis is that the Others party from Prologue was guarding some place. Maybe they were searching for the Horn? Wildling party came into "their" area. Then Royce's rangers. Then Benjen's Rangers... But benjen found the stuff...

actually a good theory. . . i've often wondered if joramun gave the horn to the COTF for safekeeping, depending. if you're right, then the Others are trying to intercept any aid (dragonglass, horn) the COTF might be trying to extend to the watch. funny that Jon finds the dragonglass cache so readily.

Black Wolf Smith 2. Benjen was First Ranger. IMO that makes him #4 or 5 highest officers of the NW. His job was to go beyond the Wall into the Wild. He went to find out what the Wildlings, and Mance were doing, not just a normal ranging. If he found a greater mission, he would have to had stopped off at the Wall before enbarking on the other mission, or at the very least sent the NW a message.

3. I don't discredit the idea, just him doing so without infoming the NW. This too could be a whole thread.

can't disagree with you there! there are probably enough people who would know if Benjen had sent a message. As Mormont's steward, Jon would be one. Chett might keep it to himself, if he knew, just to spite Jon. But I doubt Aemon or Mormont would keep that info from Jon, it's just too much. So while i'm not ruling the other options out entirely, i agree that the silence doesn't bode well for Benjen. also, it always bothered me that we lost Mormont when we did -- it's a bit like Ned, promising to tell Jon things later, but later doesn't arrive. i have a feeling Mormont (and his bloody raven) know things about the NW that likely never got passed on to Jon. now we'll have to wait and see if Sam digs anything useful up.

and the second season. . . some of it's brilliant. most of the Ros scenes, what a waste of time. Dany in front of the gates of Qarth did not improve on 2nd viewing. i like the depiction of the Others, but do think they zombied them up more like wights, possibly in keeping with the current zombie tv craze. they also seemed a little like orcs. still, they did a good job of showing that the Others are clearly in charge of the wights.

ETA: i just caught up with the end of 43 and saw Feather Crystal's post:

What if when Stark's die they join the White Walkers? I already suspect that the White Walkers are creatures from the death realm, and so to say that there is a special cold hell reserved for Starks....well, it could be that this is what happens to them. Two traditions were started to prevent Starks for joining White Walkers: 1) iron swords over their tombs, 2) boiling the dead down to their bones, a la Silent Sister style. The tombs themselves may be a portal.

If there were tunnels leading from Winterfell to north of the Wall, they'd be incredibly long. It takes over 18 days to travel from Winterfell to the Wall by horse. No human would survive underground in those passages. There just wouldn't be enough oxygen. However, the undead may be able to traverse such conditions, and it may also be the reason why Bran and company didn't use an underground route, for if mortal men could use such a passage, surely Bloodraven and the Children would have directed them there.

in some explanations the Scottish song about 'you take the high road and i'll take the low road' is about the living lover taking one road, while the other (probably the man, who has gone off to war and died) will return through the 'faerie' road under the hills. . . it complicates things for me, though, to have the COTF (tunnels, wierwoods) and the White Walkers (dead?) using the same arrangements. makes it seem like they aren't so very far apart after all.

[yestoitall]

Benjen.

I agree with the general consensus that Benjen's absence from the more recent books does not sit well. He is clearly an important character in the story, and like Black Crow says it would be poor story-telling (or should I just say non-GRRM-style storytelling?) if he were to re-appear to provide all the answers at some point in the next 2 books.

So re-examining all the info, there is another possibility, which we have been considering in various guises: Benjen hasn't been absent from the story at all, we just haven't recognized him. A list of likely explanations along these lines would include Coldhands, the Hooded Man, and probably a number of others that I'm not aware of.

If only because of his location (North of the Wall), Coldhands strikes me as the likeliest candidate. And with the latest info from ADWD; specifically Bran's viewing of the Weirwood sacrifice, plus the Theon gift chapter; with it's focus on the same, it feels to me as if there can only be one explanation for Coldhands covering his neck: he's had his throat cut as a ritual sacrifice. Obviously, it would also conceal his identity from Bran, although I'm less clear about the reason behind that. Should it turn out to be the case that Coldhands and Benjen are indeed one and the same person, I think it opens up a world of possibilities...

[alienarea]

If the cloak left with the dragonglass cache near Craster's belongs Benjen, he must have been frozen to death by now?

[Harlan]

The show still has about 5 more seasons before the big R+L=J reveal could be made. There is plenty of time for the TV show to go more into depth about the recent history of westoros including Rhaegar.

Anyone know who the person narrating (for lack of a better term) is in the most recent AGoT trailer? He says "it's been a long time old friend" and "The revenge you want will be yours in time." It almost sounds like Varys, but who would he be speaking to?

[Tyryan Lannister]

Anyone know who the person narrating (for lack of a better term) is in the most recent AGoT trailer? He says "it's been a long time old friend" and "The revenge you want will be yours in time." It almost sounds like Varys, but who would he be speaking to?

Agreed that it sounds like Varys. When watching it, I felt that he was either talking to Tyrion or to us, the audience, in a "it's been a while since you last welcomed us into your home" sort of way

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Benjen.

. . .

If only because of his location (North of the Wall), Coldhands strikes me as the likeliest candidate. And with the latest info from ADWD; specifically Bran's viewing of the Weirwood sacrifice, plus the Theon gift chapter; with it's focus on the same, it feels to me as if there can only be one explanation for Coldhands covering his neck: he's had his throat cut as a ritual sacrifice. Obviously, it would also conceal his identity from Bran, although I'm less clear about the reason behind that. Should it turn out to be the case that Coldhands and Benjen are indeed one and the same person, I think it opens up a world of possibilities...

That's an interesting observation, to be sure, and could be true whether Coldhands is Benjen or not.

Actually, it's rather realistic (a word I hesitate to use in a discussion about a fantasy series) for a person who has disappeared to remain missing and his/her fate to remain a mystery. There was a similar "disappearance" south of the Wall – Syrio Florel has not been seen or heard from after Arya saw him facing off against Meryn Trant. GRRM has implied that Syrio is well and truly dead, I think that Benjen has met the same fate.

Unless he's wandering around in those endless caverns.

[TheNorthernWarrior]

That's an interesting observation, to be sure, and could be true whether Coldhands is Benjen or not.

Actually, it's rather realistic (a word I hesitate to use in a discussion about a fantasy series) for a person who has disappeared to remain missing and his/her fate to remain a mystery. There was a similar "disappearance" south of the Wall – Syrio Florel has not been seen or heard from after Arya saw him facing off against Meryn Trant. GRRM has implied that Syrio is well and truly dead, I think that Benjen has met the same fate.

Unless he's wandering around in those endless caverns.

I don't think thats a fair comparison. Syrio was last seen in a situation where it was heavily implied he was giving his life to allow Arya to time to escape. Ok we did not see directly his death, but it was not like he was major character that needed to be be giving an on page death, and honestly there as no POV to see him die since Arya was running. But we have a POV who witnesses him in an situation were the odds of him escaping are greatly against him, and we know afterward that his opponent is alive and well with no mention of any defeat.

Benjen on the other hand is a Stark and so far in the story that makes him rather important. We have no POV that would directly explain his death. He has simply just disappeared with no explanation. If he was simply just dead I don't see why he wouldn't have been with the walkers who attacked Mormont. In fact that would have made it more dramatic, ie. John saving Mormont from his own dead uncle. The fact that his companions bodies have been recovered and his has not implies to me that there is more the story than simply he was killed on a ranging. If he had simply died I don't see why that wouldn't be revealed already. Honestly if he had simply died way back in book 1 on a normal ranging that'd be a huge disappointing let down. I am not saying he even has to be alive and coming back to save the day or anything. Maybe he is dead, but did something important before he died, or is coldhands, or something, anything. Nothing would just be weak.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Actually, I do hope his fate is revealed just so it won't be a matter of debate for years after the last book is published.

[wolfmaid7]

Hey guys, does anybody know the name of the King in the North who helped bring down the Night's king?

Also,It is stated on the wiki that the King in WF sent out the NW to get his daughter back from Bael the Bard.So i was wondering if there was not a LC or was the Stark in WF acting as both. If the story of Bael the Bard is true.What do you guys think?

[Greenfyre]

I don't think thats a fair comparison. Syrio was last seen in a situation where it was heavily implied he was giving his life to allow Arya to time to escape... But we have a POV who witnesses him in an situation were the odds of him escaping are greatly against him, and we know afterward that his opponent is alive and well with no mention of any defeat.

I agree with you about the dissimilarity between Benjen and Syrio's situations, but I've really never understood why people think Syrio was in such a hopeless spot.

Re "time to let Arya escape": Trant was in heavy plate mail, not shorts and track spikes. I'd like to see him try to catch Arya... or Syrio... or Hot Pie... or Lollys. (He could probably manage Wyman Manderly.)

If Syrio wanted to increase Arya's lead time, by making the fight more competitive, all he had to do was grab the steel sword of his choice from the floor.

And as far as Trant reporting that he got his ass kicked by a dancing master who had just laid out all of Trant's underlings when they attacked him simultaneously... would you report that, if you were in the Kingsguard?

[Greenfyre]

Also,It is stated on the wiki that the King in WF sent out the NW to get his daughter back from Bael the Bard.So i was wondering if there was not a LC or was the Stark in WF acting as both. If the story of Bael the Bard is true.What do you guys think?

As I recall it says the crows flew from their castles at the Stark's (Brandon the Daughterless's) "behest." Since the Stark has no direct power over the Watch, the implication to me is that he asked for help, and the Lord Commander of the Watch granted his request.

[Black Wolf Smith]

If the cloak left with the dragonglass cache near Craster's belongs Benjen, he must have been frozen to death by now?

I guess I am the only one who still thinks that the dragonglass had been there a very long time, yes I know the cloak looked new.

I guess Benjen could have found something out, and sent Othor and Flowers to Mormont. That they died on the way back, but somehow knew that they must get to Mormont. They were not trying to kill Mormont, but get the message to him.

[Black Crow]

Possible, but I'm inclined to think not for two reasons:

1. The 3EC explicitly tells Bran that it's because of what he sees in the heart of Winter that he must live. Benjen doesn't seem like adequate justification for that; I think it must've been something more akin to a threat to Bran's entire way of life, Westeros as a whole.

2. The Great Other Who Must Not Be Named is likely as nonexistent as all other gods in this series (barring the WeirNet, if you count it).

Agreed with both, my own view remains that having first been shown the world as it was, what Bran then saw in the "Heart of Winter" wasn't the serried legions of Hell waiting for the off, but the future.

[Black Crow]

I guess I am the only one who still thinks that the dragonglass had been there a very long time, yes I know the cloak looked new.

I guess Benjen could have found something out, and sent Othor and Flowers to Mormont. That they died on the way back, but somehow knew that they must get to Mormont. They were not trying to kill Mormont, but get the message to him.

An interesting interpretation, which would require Othor to try and kill Jon because he was prventing him from getting to Mormont.

[Black Crow]

Hey guys, does anybody know the name of the King in the North who helped bring down the Night's king?

Also,It is stated on the wiki that the King in WF sent out the NW to get his daughter back from Bael the Bard.So i was wondering if there was not a LC or was the Stark in WF acting as both. If the story of Bael the Bard is true.What do you guys think?

Nope, Old Nan just calls him the Stark in Winterfell. While she's pretty positive that the Nights King was his brother, calling him Brandon may have been ramping the story up for Bran's benefit as in when she suggests he may have slept in that very room.

On the other hand the "significant" Starks all seem to be called Brandon.

[Capon Breath]

When watching the S3 trailer on YouTube just now I saw a link called S3tease 16 secs. Not sure of voice over, sounds like cat maybe?

Anyway it starts with " the Great War is between death & life, ice & fire..."

Over simplification for TV or anything in it?