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Rhaenys_Targaryen

[TWOIAF Spoilers] Inconsistency or Intentional?

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In Aegon III's rule, when he comes of age(136 AC) it says he dismisses his Hand Lord Manderly... but on the previous page(83) the only Manderly listed among his council for all those years was Ser Torrhen Manderly who gave up his office 4 years prior(132 AC).

Ser Torrhen Manderly left cause his father and brother both died of sickness making him Lord Manderly, he returned to White Harbor after their deaths, I guess he found someone to rule White Harbor in his absence and returned to King's Landing to be Hand

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He became Hand at the age of 20, and being born in 242 that'd make it 262. Yes, the book's in error here. George introduced a small error in his Westerlands material which we fixed... not realizing that the error was symptomatic of an error that ran through his timeline, so it threw everything out of whack. Next printing should have the betrothal event with Genna as being in 252, accordingly, and then I think everything else should line up all right.

If Tywin was born in 242 and he was the only grandchild Gerold ever knew, did Gerold die in 242 (and not 244 as the book says)?

Tytos was 24 when he inherited, and Jason was 15. Lynora Hill was born when Jason was 13, so two years earlier. Does Lynora Hill not count as a grandchild that was born during Gerold's lifetime because she was a bastard? And Damon Lannister was born when Jason was 15, so he was born just after Gerold died?

Which other dates and ages need to be shifted forward by 2 years because of the error in the timeline?

Helled,

Hrm, usage is straight from George, but you're right. It seems when he went through the family tree -- the final family trees were the very last thing George provided, after a lot of the text (including the Westerlands) had been locked down -- he tweaked stuff, such as having Jason's child by Alys survive and go on to marry and so on.

I'll put in for a fix for the next print.

Is this really an error, though? If Damon was born in either 242 or 244, whichever year Gerold actually died when Jason was 15, Damon would have been around the same age as either Tywin or Kevan, old enough to be among the 1000 knights sent from the Westerlands to the Stepstones. A 15 or 17 year old Damon could have married Ella on the eve of the conflict, gotten her pregnant, gone off to war, and died with his father Jason before Damion was even born. In that scenario, could Jason have designated Stafford as his heir? It would make sense because Stafford's capture happened after the War of the Ninepenny Kings.

The book says the Reyne-Tarbeck Rebellion began "late in the year 261". Going by the 242 birth date, Tywin had to be 19 in 261, but did the main books say Tywin was only 18 during the Reyne-Tarbeck Rebellion?

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Jason was born in either 229 AC or 230 AC. If born in 230 AC, he would be 13 in both 243 and 244, if born in 229, in both 242 and 243. He would be fifteen only in 244 or after.

Kevan was born in 244, so after Gerolds death. That's not a problem.

Lynora might not count, as she is a bastard.

And Jason's ages for everything were cut from the book (westerlands reading only).. so hey are not canon..

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Joanna,



Lynora isn't being counted by our maester, being a bastard. Also, the line is "the only grandchild his lordship ever knew," which might suggest that Lynora Hill was never presented to him and so it's true in a technical sense that he never knew her (but then, that too would be because of her illegitimacy).



That line about Stafford being heir was before George decided to tie Jason's offspring by Alys Stackspear into the later tree by having his son Damon lead to the Damion, Lucion, and Lanna, who appear in the appendices. He did not have that in his head when he provided the Westerlands history (I have his Lannister tree from circa 2010, and there he never got around to giving Jason a wife or children), and seems to have decided it only when he turned to the family tree toward the end of writing and decided to flesh it out.



I assume he looked at the appendices and saw a few unaccounted-for cousins and decided that that was an expedient way to deal with it... but it did leave the claim of Stafford as heir as an error. In fact, even if we suppose Damon died young leaving Stafford the next eldest, his son Damion should have been Jason's heir ahead of his uncle Stafford, properly speaking, and I'm not sure there's a scenario where his eldest son's heir should be disenfranchised. It's not as if he were lord of Casterly Rock. He likely had a similar kind of wealth to what Kevan had due to his service to Tywin (maybe -- Kevan notes their father, and Tywin too, was generous; but Jason sounds like he was a pain in Gerold's ass).



(The only other way to read it is that Jason somehow disinherited his son Damon (and so Damon's offspring) prior to his death, but that seems very unlikely given Damon's youth and the fact that Damon had a pretty good marriage to a Lannister of Lannisport.)



Note that George's settling on the family tree does lead to an inconsistency in the AFfC appendix, where Daven Lannister is named "a cousin" to Cersei while Damion -- who is of the exact same degree in the newly published family tree -- is named "a more distant cousin".


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Joanna,

Lynora isn't being counted by our maester, being a bastard. Also, the line is "the only grandchild his lordship ever knew," which might suggest that Lynora Hill was never presented to him and so it's true in a technical sense that he never knew her (but then, that too would be because of her illegitimacy).

That line about Stafford being heir was before George decided to tie Jason's offspring by Alys Stackspear into the later tree by having his son Damon lead to the Damion, Lucion, and Lanna, who appear in the appendices. He did not have that in his head when he provided the Westerlands history (I have his Lannister tree from circa 2010, and there he never got around to giving Jason a wife or children), and seems to have decided it only when he turned to the family tree toward the end of writing and decided to flesh it out.

I assume he looked at the appendices and saw a few unaccounted-for cousins and decided that that was an expedient way to deal with it... but it did leave the claim of Stafford as heir as an error. In fact, even if we suppose Damon died young leaving Stafford the next eldest, his son Damion would have been Jason's heir ahead of his uncle Stafford. So. (The only other way to read it is that Jason somehow disinherited his son Damon (and so Damon's offspring) prior to his death, but that seems very unlikely given Damon's youth and the fact that Damon had a pretty good marriage to a Lannister of Lannisport.)

Note that George's settling on the family tree does lead to an inconsistency in the AFfC appendix, where Daven Lannister is named "a cousin" to Cersei while Damion -- who is of the exact same degree in the newly published family tree -- is named "a more distant cousin".

And as for Margot Lannister, should we assume she is also one of the two females born from Jason and Marla that are not listed?

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Technically speaking, Damyon is a more distant cousin to Cersei and Co. than Daven, because his father Damon was only Joanna's half-sibling, while Stafford was her full brother. ;).

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Good point, and that's likely George's explanation (though properly speaking I don't believe you refer to someone as a "distant cousin" because there's a half-sibling further back in the line; the degree of relationship is the same between a "half-cousin" and a normal cousin.) But then that's fortuitous because back in 2010 (much less 2004) George had no idea just how the mechanics of the relationships worked for the various minor Lannisters. He only decided it rather recently.


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Ran,



any idea how Lady Margot Lannister figures into all of that. Technically she should not be a descendant of Jason's, as she is even more distant than both Daven and Damion. I imagine she would have to be from yet another male branch, perhaps a younger brother of Lord Damon who did not make it on the family tree. Or an even older cadet branch?



No idea if that's ever have any impact, but with Aegon coming the Lannister-Peake-match could have some interesting consequences...


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Ran,

any idea how Lady Margot Lannister figures into all of that. Technically she should not be a descendant of Jason's, as she is even more distant than both Daven and Damion. I imagine she would have to be from yet another male branch, perhaps a younger brother of Lord Damon who did not make it on the family tree. Or an even older cadet branch?

No idea if that's ever have any impact, but with Aegon coming the Lannister-Peake-match could have some interesting consequences...

When in doubt, make her a Lannisport Lannister!

sorry

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Could be, but no Lannisters of Lannisport are listed in the Lannister appendices as (close or distant) cousins of Tywin/Cersei.



I don't doubt that there was a lot of intermarriage between the Lannisters of Casterly Rock and the Lannister of Lannisport over the years, but this was apparently not the case in the last couple of generations with the descendants of the Grey Lion.


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What about through the four issues of Jason and Marla. They aren't listed, and thus any possible children, but those children would be distant cousins. Marla/Margot, might mean something, likely not.


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Could be, but then Margot would be of the same branch as Stafford/Joanna, and not a more distant cousin. But I could live with that inconsistency.


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Could be, but then Margot would be of the same branch as Stafford/Joanna, and not a more distant cousin. But I could live with that inconsistency.

It depends on what distant cousin is. I am close to my second cousins, and see them more then some of the first cousins. A daughter of a 1st cousin is a 2nd cousin, so would that be distant?

And living in the Reach (Peake) is that distant also, or is it reserved to placement on family tree?

Also, Damon married an Ella Lannister, from that branch could Margot be?

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BTW, not an inconsistency per se, but isn't it strange that Joanna had been old enough to allegedly have sex with Aerys in 259, but only married Tywin in 263? As per ASoS, Tywin and Joanna were supposed to have been betrothed when the whole arrest of Lord Tarbeck - kidnapping of Stafford and 2 lesser Lannisters happened, so... In 260? 261?

But how did that betrothal come about and why was it as lengthy as it was, considering that both principals were old enough for marriage by Westerosi standards? I mean, we now know that Lord Gerold couldn't have been behind the betrothal, so did Tytos make it to please his brother Jason, or in his memory and Tywin didn't resist him in this instance? Or did Tywin arrange it himself, after all?

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BTW, not an inconsistency per se, but isn't it strange that Joanna had been old enough to allegedly have sex with Aerys in 259, but only married Tywin in 263? As per ASoS, Tywin and Joanna were supposed to have been betrothed when the whole arrest of Lord Tarbeck - kidnapping of Stafford and 2 lesser Lannisters happened, so... In 260? 261?

But how did that betrothal come about and why was it as lengthy as it was, considering that both principals were old enough for marriage by Westerosi standards? I mean, we now know that Lord Gerold couldn't have been behind the betrothal, so did Tytos make it to please his brother Jason, or in his memory and Tywin didn't resist him in this instance? Or did Tywin arrange it himself, after all?

Well, I can imagine that Tywin was rather busy in 260 AC (War of the Ninepenny Kings) and in 261 AC (Tarbeck/Reyne situation, and the brooding and anger that came before it).. In 262 AC, he would first needed to have settled as Hand..

We don't know exactly how old Joanna is, but even if she was old enough to have sex, that doesn't mean that she would need to have been married immediately at that age.. Cersei was only married at 18, for example, but had been having sex with Jaime for a while..

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That could be a sign that Joanna was not in a rush to get married to her cousin...


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I doubt Joanna would have had a say in deciding when.. That would have been Tytos, as Joanna's overlord (after Jason's death in 260 AC).




Would the "terribly long, cruel winter" following the 7 year summer during Maekar's reign be the winter from 131 AC to 136 AC, by any chance?


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That could be a sign that Joanna was not in a rush to get married to her cousin...

Certainly a suspicion I've had too. We hear that Tywin was really devoted to Joanna and that he genuinely loved her, but we don't really hear the same about her and I think it's a common assumption, and maybe it shouldn't be.

Not suggesting she didn't love Tywin, just that he may have had much stronger feelings than she did.

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I doubt Joanna would have had a say in deciding when.. That would have been Tytos, as Joanna's overlord (after Jason's death in 260 AC).

Would the "terribly long, cruel winter" following the 7 year summer during Maekar's reign be the winter from 131 AC to 136 AC, by any chance?

Yes, It must be 231-236.

Old Nan's Brandon died from a summer chill at three. Which summer/Brandon was that?

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