James Steller

I find it hard to believe that the Hoares would have been able to hold three kingdoms without stretching their forces. The Iron Islands do not have a population big enough to that. The Stormlords would have put up a furious fight on their home turf, the Ironborn would have suffered setbacks, and various riverlords would have seized the opportunity to overthrow their tyrannical masters. They were itching to break free, so even without Aegon, the Hoares would have eventually gotten in trouble.

I won’t deny that racism plagues fantasy, but I’ve seen no evidence of racism on this forum. So while I absolutely see your point and I admire your willingness to stand up for it, I think your zeal might be misplaced in this case.

Was that a specific term they agreed on, or was that just a practical idea to avoid a confusing night fight? That’s a lot of loaded language there. I’m no fan of Mel but her “Perverted black magic” was also used to bring Beric Dondarrion back to life so he could continue to fight for the smallfolk. Magic is a tool, to be used well or used badly. Also, baby brother? Renly was a full grown man who made his own bad choices, we’re not talking about Maelor Targaryen here.

Renly could have travelled to Dragonstone and offered to join forces with Stannis instead of riding south to build his own base for kingship. Both brothers are equally at fault for not working together. I’m going by what I remember from the text. Stannis confides in Davos, so I don’t think he would lie to him. Again, I think Stannis was in a desperate place and he put his faith in Melisandre for the wrong reasons. What terms did he break??? They made no terms. Stannis gave Renly one chance to join him and Renly refused it. There were no terms broken, they were both preparing to kill each other that night. And Renly would have been a kinslayer the next morning if there hadn’t been a shadowbaby. Even if you argue that Renly wouldn’t have been the one to personally kill Stannis, the same could be said for Stannis, since he didn’t actually physically kill Renly either. Both would have been responsible for ordering the other’s death, Stannis just got there first.

Polygamy is a thing. The Targaryens set that precedent at the very start of their realm, and several Targaryens have made use of it, including fan favourite Rhaegar, if that theory is to be believed.

Canon Claude hasn’t been around for a while. I thought they had some interesting opinions and contributions.

Stannis’ use of magic to kill Renly is a messy situation. Renly was usurping him, and was even preparing to kill him. Plus from what I recall, Stannis might not have been fully aware of what happened. And yes, he was bracing himself to sacrifice Edric Storm and he did stand by and let Mel sacrfice Alester Florent, but that is Stanni at his lowest, his most desperate. I will never say that stannis is a saint, and I never have. But he strikes me as a genuinely good man who was manipulated and enthralled to a sinister figure because he was ignorant or desperate or because his worst personality traits were awakened. Book 3 and onward has been his redemption, and he has shown that he is becoming his best self, and a worthy king. Plus he actually seems to have remorse (or at least, conflicted feelings) over the terrible things he sanctioned. Bloodraven, meanwhile, actively murdered Aenys Blackfyre without any provocation. Aenys wasn’t invading, he asked permission to travel to King’s Landing and put his case before the Great Council. He was no threat whatsoever. Bloodraven could have easily said no and forbade him leave to return to Westeros, but that wasn’t enough for BR. He lured Aenys over with promises of safe conduct, then murdered him and threw his severed head onto the table as an intimidation tactic. Also, this is harder to prove, but I do believe that he genuinely killed off Baelor’s bloodline, possibly in the name of that stupid prophecy. And not once does Bloodraven show any sign that he regrets his deeds. He feels utterly justified in his actions, and gives the bs “greater good” defence, when all he’s really done is defend his own power. Bloodraven didn’t take responsibility for his actions. He was forced to take responsibility, and again, I refuse to believe it was for altruistic reasons. He had no reason to murder Aenys unless Aenys might have actually stood a chance to be chosen king, and I’d say that Aenys would have deserved a chance if he was that promising. They didn’t just elope. They helped to trigger one of the most devastating wars of the past 300 years. Did all those people have to die? And it’s not like Rhaegar and Lyanna didn’t know what was going on. They spent months hiding away and honeymooning while the realm was torn apart. And the only thing Lyanna (allegedly) does is make Ned promise to sacrifice his own honour to protect her love child with Rhaegar? again, I am assuming that these two were both complicit in what happened, but if that’s true, it makes them utterly selfish. All those people dead for one stupid baby to be born?Rhaegar was such a fanatic for prophecy that he was happy to tear the world apart to make that third dragon head. I am tired of the whole “fulfilled prophecy justifies anything it takes to get there” storyline. It’s my least favourite part of ASOIAF, this idea that every awful thing that’s ever done is justified and necessary to make the prophecy come true to save humanity. Frankly, I don’t think humanity would be worth saving if that’s the cost. But all that is one thing if it wasn’t for the fact that they’re hypocrites. The prophecy was just an excuse, at the end of the day. They did it out of selfish love for each other. Rhaegar didn’t seem to care at all for his mother, brother, wife, children, he literally only cares about this girl half his age whom he knew for what, a year at best? Did either of them have any concern for anyone in their lives, or all the people who were dying for their love story? The notion that these utterly selfish people will be vindicated by prophecy is a repulsive notion to me. At least Stannis is actively trying to be a better man, and he doesn’t actually believe in Mel’s ramblings. The abomination turned him into a religious maniac, which is exactly what rubs me so wrong with Rhaegar. Stannis rightly sees that the idea of gods is a cruel one, and not to be revered or loved. His affiliation with Mel is the worst part of him, and that’s correctly framed in the books. His redemption comes through Davos and Jon Snow and the fact that he recognizes his duties as a leader. I’ll admit, it’s not a clear cut thing. I fully recognise that Stannis has done awful things, but I don’t get the sense that he did those things out of malice or fanaticism. BR is the definition of malice, and Lyagar strike me as being utterly selfish fanatics. And yes, my stance is a hot take, hence why it belongs here.

Stannis writing that letter feels so out of character, plus I don’t see what he’d gain from it that he couldn’t just gain by writing Jon as himself. Mance is devious enough to do it, but I don’t know why he’d do it. Jon is the best hope for his people, and that letter did nothing but destabilize Jon’s position. Plus I don’t see how Mance would have been in a position to write such a letter based on the last time we saw him.

Again, I don’t think this is controversial. Makes the most sense to me. I would be utterly baffled if anyone other than Ramsay wrote that letter.

Rhaegar and Lyanna are among the worst people of the entire series, assuming that their disappearance was a consensual elopement and love affair. Brynden Rivers is also a monster but for different reasons. I will think much less of GRRM if he tries to justify or vindicate any of those three for what they did. Is that controversial? All three of the men you named are noted as being highly dangerous warriors.

I don’t think his resolve was ever in question. Even in captivity, when he’s facing defeat, he spites the Lannisters by helping his uncle escape Riverrun and he openly declares his hatred for Jaime. His resolve is as strong as it ever was.

Frankly, I think Edmure is an underrated figure in the series. He appears to be one of the precious few nobles who actually cares about the plight of the smallfolk. He is willing to go the extra mile to protect as many of his people as he can. Admittedly, this leads to mixed results, but to say he is incompetent feels unjust. He is not a prodigy like Robb, nor a Machiavellian like Tywin. He seems like an ordinary guy doing the best that he can to uphold his own values. And let us not forget that he is the only person in the series who can say that they defeated Tywin on the battlefield. And I will not discuss his appalling treatment in the abomination, by the way.

Agreed. The Iron Islands were basically an afterthought in the conquest. And them being loyal to the North would change nothing except that the North is justified in not having any major defences along its west coast.

I don’t see Visenya when I look at Stannis. I see a mix of Aegon III and Maekar. Both of them are cheerless men who don’t make friends easily, they’re both haunted by guilt over either killing or abandoning their brothers, they’re also both efficient kings with a keen sense of justice, but they’re also overlooked as kings and men.

I know that maesters are sworn to castles rather than families. They play no part in war (theoretically) and only serve the family who rules the castles in which they live. Is the same true of septas? Or would they be considered traitors for siding against the family which they serve during, say, a war which causes opposite sides to be drawn?

It’s also worth noting that Robert’s Rebellion was triggered because of actions that Aerys committed against men who had not threatened him, but his heir. For all that he thought Rhaegar was conspiring against him, and for all that he alienated Rhaegar, Aerys was still willing to murder multiple Lords Paramount for his son’s sake.

Was it before or after Egg became king? Or is that something GRRM hasn’t revealed yet?

Touché. I don’t have your experience working with kids like that, and I can only imagine how sad that is. I do stand by my position that I think Stannis was also neglected in his own way. I don’t believe that he became so mistrustful and bitter and antisocial by choice. He is both resentful of Robert and desperate to match his legacy. From my own perspective, it seems like he has been hurt in life several times. Based on your own experience, am I mistaken, or is that not worth considering when one tries to examine Stannis’ psyche?

Oh, I think it’s clear that you do care to get the attention of Stannis fans, or else you wouldn’t have tried so hard to provoke us. Well, that’s a relief. It wasn’t Stannis’s choice to bring that worship to Dragonstone. And while I do think it was a bad idea for him to play along with his wife’s notions, we have seen for ourselves that the Red God has genuine power. True. It was a big mistake not to do that, but that was not a mistake made out of foolishness, it was pride and resentment which did that. That isn’t a genius idea at all. Robert Arryn is a weak child who will be no help to Stannis in the short term (and arguably not in the long term either). Plus we already saw that his attempt to foster Robert was undermined at every level. You have no proof of those claims. GRRM didn’t give us a full account of the Baratheon boys’ childhoods. We know that Stannis was bullied and overshadowed by Robert, and he was badly affected by his parents’ deaths. Robert had Eddard and clearly preferred him as a brother to Stannis or Renly. Whether Stannis reached out to Renly or not is impossible to prove either way. What we do know is that Stannis was always loyal to Robert, even when it went against his loyalty to the king and the law. Appears, yes, but most men in the series are just as bad or worse than Stannis. I also doubt very much that he had a choice in marrying Selyse, who is an utterly reprehensible person, both outside and inside. And say what you will Stannis as a father, but he has no qualms with Shireen as his heir. He even order Justin Massey to put Shireen on the throne if he dies. It’s almost like he was emotionally isolated throughout his life and has trouble showing affection in a primitive patriarchal culture which punishes emotion in men. To be fair, I am also repulsed by how Stannis treats Cressen, but I don’t think he did so out of malice. Some have suggested that Stannis is on the spectrum, or suffering from unresolved PTSD, or both. I’d believe those ideas, given his behaviour. But that doesn’t make him a fool. I for one have never said that Stannis is a genius (except in terms of military matters). Stannis Baratheon is a flawed man with serious issues that can’t be resolved easily. That he is still managing to progress and change for the better by listening to good men like Davos and Jon is part of what makes him so fascinating to me. He has the potential to be a great king, a leader who would put the people first and bring down the insufferable “game of thrones” which others are playing, including Renly, who consistently showed zero interest in ruling beyond his own selfish ambition (yes, he died before we knew much about him but hey, you’re the one who started speculating about unknowns). And speaking of that, you and so many Renly fans fall victim to arguing with speculation. How much do you actually know about Renly? Maybe he rejected Stannis’ attempts at brotherly relationship in favour of hero-worshipping Robert, or maybe you’re right and Stannis closed himself off from Renly due to his own trauma. We won’t know Renly’s story because Renly is dead. But to say that Stannis is a fool is just a reactionary and inflammatory stance. Stannis is neither fool nor genius, he is a man with deep flaws that undermine his proven abilities, which he struggles to overcome so that he might be a better man and a worthier ruler. That fascinates me in terms of character development far more than any other character in this series, let alone Renly.

Nymeria was a refugee, Aegon and his sisters weren’t. That’s one difference. Plus Mors Martell welcomed Nymeria to his home. And since the Dornish kings were warring anyway, Nymeria put an end to the wars by defeating said kings. And last I checked, unlike with the Targaryens, Dorne hasn’t been riddled with rebellions and civil wars since the Martells took charge.

I think Littlefinger was just taking advantage of the fact that he knew about the chaos which he’d caused, and so he was able to steer his ship while others crashed into rocks and drowned.

Stormlands

Nah, just cousin incest

I can’t remember if the Freys found out about the Westerling marriage before the Battle of Blackwater or vice versa. But either way, I’d say that the Westerling marriage definitely pushed Walder over the edge and gave the Freys a desire for revenge. Without that, though, I think the Blackwater battle would definitely inspire Walder to desert Robb, repudiate their agreement, and defect back to the Crown.

Putting aside what we’ve seen, how strong is Valyrian steel supposed to be in the books?