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I don't know exactly what part of the forum and overarching book vs show discussion is supposed to take place in. Season 5, to me, seems to have a lower narrative quality than seasons 1-4 also. But the issue is I read the books before watching this season and this changed my perspective - so I am aware my perspective has a bias it did not have when unsullied. I am also aware that books 4 & 5 would not adapt well to TV after Seasons 1-4 of GoTs. I generally regret reading the books before seeing the show finish now, because it leaves me unable to determine which I think is better storytelling. I see positives and negatives in both. I should have watched the show first and then read the books if and when they are complete.

That was a different thread. Define quality? I bet you will find that it is abstract, or based on individual interpretation. And that is one of the main points that this argument heads towards - claiming you know what quality is, for anyone other than yourself, is snobbish. The only indicators we can rely on beyond our personal assessments are group ratings, exactly as listed on places like IMDB or metacritic, profits, viewing numbers and so on. How do they pick the Lord Commanders of the Nights Watch?

So, from what you are writing, you are basically an artistic snob? When I have sold a piece of art I have completed, I consider it a commercial transaction and that my art has become commercial at that stage, regardless of what the art was, or what your definition claims. A painting on a billboard and the Mona Lisa are the same thing, when we remove interpretation and emotional bias. You can make an assessment on an abridged version - it may not be as complete an emotional assessment as you can on the full version, but it can take all the relevant information into account. A statement of facts, produced for a court, is still a narrative in the broadest sense.

Anything that is sold, or makes a profit, is commercial. Anything that is creative, or involves artisans, of any kind, can be classified as art, can't it? Popular entertainment would still be commercial art, wouldn't it? The wiki article apparently has multiple issues and requires citation. The Illiad is darker than Troy because the resolution was less hopeful, the herosim less pronounced and more people died in it. Dark, negative - not positive or hopeful. If society is positive about itself, hopeful of positive stories and films will appeal. When society is negative about itself, or doubts its direction, hopeless or negative stories appeal. Sometimes, art, stories, films, whatever can be out of sync and drive change - but not as often as something that is in sync can profit.

No, haven't read the Illiad. I do understand that the Illiad is darker than the film Troy, however - and I think that, so far, GoTs is on the same basic path of darkness as the novels. Audiences have changed between the release of the film Troy and now - Western society didn't hate (or should I say doubt) itself as much when Troy was released, as it does now. If Troy was released now, it would be closer to the Illiad, perhaps not exactly the same - but closer. This is the thing with commercial art - it has to cater to it's audience.

I never even mentioned it's financial success - I gauged biggest on how big a budget it gets and how many people watch it. The cinema cut of Troy was shit - but the extended cut was ok.

It's not a bad idea - but the higher a budget gets, the less experimental the production becomes. Because, money,

Why does trying to be in touch with some semblance of reality make someone a troll? GoTs is the biggest show on TV (by all definitions such as biggest budget, biggest viewership and most downloads) and D&D are still at the helm. Regardless of what you think of the show, these 2 things are kind of impossible to deny.

You know how these savages are. implies that they understand what motivates them. If you know how to motivate something, you can control it. I'm surprised that 105 actually synced so well with 501 - glad I re-watched it now.

Illyrio - We need time. Kahl Drogo will not make his move until his son is born. You know how these savages are. Obviously Illyrio thinks Drogo wont do anything for their cause until Dany has his son. From memory that's pretty much how it was in the book also, Viserys thought Drogo would conquer Westeros for him once Dany was knocked up. You know how these savages are, implies that they understand what motivates Drogo.

I just re-watched the Episode 105 dialogue to work it out, see above. It seems that Illyrio always thought they could control a Dothraki invasion if Dany had Drogo's son.

How does thinking there will be war and it is too soon prove that Illyrio and Varis intended war? I didn't take it like that at all - I took it like they were going 'shit wars coming and it's too soon for our plan'. Re the Dothraki, the idea was that offering Dany for marriage the Dothraki would put Viserys on the Throne. I thought that was more Viserys' idea than anyone else and I got the feeling that Illyrio never thought it was going to work. Illyrio had his eye on Dany fro some reason - he gave her those eggs. Edit: I just re watched that dialogue - Season 1, Episode 5, time 21.46 Illyrio - What good is war now, we are not ready. If one hand can die, so can another. Varys - This hand is not the other. Illyrio - We need time. Kahl Drogo will not make his move until his son is born. You know how these savages are. Varys - Delay, you say. Illyrio - Move fast, I reply. Varys - This is no longer a game we play. Illyrio - It never was. So they didn't want the lion/wolf war and it seems the only way IIllyrio thought they could control a Dothraki invasion was if Dany had Drogo's son.

I didn't think show Varys was setting the Lords against each other, I thought that was more LF. What show Varys says is: He (Illiryo) and I met many years ago, through mutual friends, a group of people who saw Robert Baratheon for the disaster he was. We tried to do what was best for the Realm, by supporting a Targareon Restoration. And thus began a chain of mistakes that have led us both here. Things have gotten worse, not better. Westeros needs to be saved from itself. So basically, show Varys, at some point during Roberts rule, got together with some other people who thought Robert was useless, sought Viserys out in Pentos and married Dany to Drogo, hoping to enable Viserys' return to power in Westeros. We saw what happened from there. Best laid plans of mice and men oft go astray :D The Aegon plot is obviously filler, invented after GoTs was written. The original 'plan' was always to get Viserys crowned. And Drogo took care of that in Essos. Everything Dany has been doing, she has been doing by herself - her Dothraki horde was not part of anyone's plan, what she has become isn't part of anyone's plan - but now she is Varys' hope. Varys has decided to pick up the pieces of the Viserys plan with Dany - that's all.

DP - sounds rude :D

See above - is it because the genuinely don't make sense, or is it just because they don't align with how your imagination interpreted the book?

See, I kind of do and don't have sympathy. GRRM signed up with D&D - his call. GRRM slowed down his writing pace - again, his call. GRRM put ages in in the first book - his worst call. GRRM can do a time jump in the novels, to age his characters up - which again would be his call. GRRM made all of his own choices and has the power to fix all of his own problems. I sympathize that he may be in a bit of a bind, with added pressure from the show - but he can think and write his way out of it. As for the Mereneese knot, that has always sounded like an excuse to me - or a dead give away that GRRM is a sensationally disorganized individual :D You are writing a huge fantasy saga and you don't have a spreadsheet with all the character ages and locations at given points in time? You don't have a map of the world with little markers showing where everyone is and knowing approximately how long it takes to move them around? Even scriptwriters do this kind of stuff to track where characters are in a haunted house or spaceship or whatever, as they are writing, so you think it would be a requirement of novels the size of ASoIaF. Totally agree. I did post elsewhere how books create a stronger bond with a reader than a show can, because our imaginations work like that. But a personal interpretation is just that - personal. The show is the combined interpretation of many artisans, including GRRM, D&D and all the actors, so surely it has to be more thorough than anything an individual can achieve by themselves.

That's crap, I like AFFC more than ADwD & ACoK. I would rate them as per my own judgement, which would be something like AGoT 4/5 ACoK 3/5 ASoS 4/5 AFFC 4/5 ADwD 2/5 But, I know AFFC would make poor television - I was aware as I was reading it, thinking, how the fuck will they do this in Season 5? Lena Headly wont let the character she has created be reverted to some kind of evil Queen/dumb CEO caricature, as much as it made me laugh reading it, book Cersie does not have the humanity of show Cersie. And what are they going to do with Jamie, have him saying. "But she fucked someone else" to every person he met? I would have liked the war torn Weteros vistas and the Edmure and Blackfish stuff to be in Season 5 on tele - perhaps it will make it into Season 6? ADwD was the one I found worst, needlessly over convoluted. My favorite bit was the prologue, Bran's chapters and Mel's chapter - because it made me think, thank fuck GRRM hasn't forgotten his basic story altogether. Just because I find the reasoning of most of you hard core book lovers narrow minded, doesn't mean I'm coming from a place where I see no quality in GRRMs books at all. And it doesn't mean I think the show is better in every respect. Cersie is far better in show. Tywin was better in show. Tyrion is better in book, even though I hate the little fucker. Dany is better in book, even though I don't like her much either. Jon is like Sansa - kind of bland in both but at least Kit has finally become likable this Season. Arya is better in book. Sandor was better in book. Brienne is likable but a stupid thug in both - don't forget her book introduction was pushing a boulder onto a boat like some kind of menopausal Donkey Kong. Bran is far better in book. Jamie is pretty good in both - although he did become whiny bitch in AFFC :D So I would say book Jamie was better but it looks like show Jamie is becoming better. My favorite element, the Others and Lovecraftian mythology, is better in book, when it's there. Oh, and the Giants - my next favorite thing to the Others, far better in book. We need to hear their song in show, the show has portrayed them with some nobility, but not sympathetic enough.

Yea, so it's a case of shit in, shit out :) As I posted earlier, if GRRM had written 2 more ASoS style novels to finish it, rather than AFFC & ADWD, everyone would be happy. Book fans would be happy, getting to read it all first. D&D would be happy, because they would have great blueprints to follow. And show fans would be happy because Seasons 5. 6 & 7 could be based on a source as good as seasons 1,2,3 &4. TWoW and ADoS may be the best fantasy books ever, as good as ASoS or better - but there will always be the issue of too little, too late as far as the whole GoTs phenomenon is concerned. I don't think its entirely fair to blame D&D for dropping a ball that wasn't passed to them correctly. What do you mean by race? D&D have a schedule - they have to deliver every year. It's HBO franchised cashcow, that ain't going to wait for anyone. GoTs is bigger than D&D, bigger than ASoIaF, bigger even than HBO - it's become a massive train that's rolling forwards, keeping t-shirt factory workers employed and a percentage of you-tube interesting. No one involved in GoTs really has the luxury to say it will be done when its done anymore, it's gone beyond that. Everyone involved should be working to contain the beast it is and reign it in for a satisfying conclusion, without letting it get out of control or turn to shit.

ha ha Pies are coming, we almost dupped each other :D Some slightly different takes, but same vibe overall.

He could have been talking figuratively, like Dany is under siege emotionally. Yes, she gave birth to 4 but a person that dies as an infant arguably never becomes a child. The scene was trying to conceptualize how Daario and Greyworm operate.The guy in the wall obviously got in a different way but it was not important to the main drive of the scene. Some of the most remembered things in cinematic history don't make sense when you think about them logistically - they are more about conveying an idea with visuals. This is where there is a fundamental difference between the book and show, that people need to get their heads around to appreciate how the ame story can be told different ways in different mediums. We'll have to wait and see - but I have a feeling Jamie and Doran will become buddies. Because she loves him and she is often an unstable, emotionally driven bitch that wants everything her way. Another thing we have to wait and see. Though we have to be clear that hating on LFs plan just because it endangers Sansa is not the same as hating on LFs plan because it doesn't make sense. And, we also have to try and empathize with a mindset that does not sympathize with other people at all to really understand how LF thinks. because fan-service - and fans pay D&Ds bills. It seems that way so far - I'm not sure why the Sandsnakes are part of this season, or that they need to be. Obviously it all went a little too fast for you - scene did a flyby, because you are used to the snails pace of GRRMs writing :D Sam decided to make Jon Lord Commander after he knew Jon was going to reject being Lord of Winterfell. Sam saw that Jon really cared about the Nights Watch, which gave him the courage to stand up and vouch for Jon. I thought the Lord Commander election was a perfect way to cut down and speed up something that moved a bit slowly in book.

I think that this is a low point in the source material and a low point in the show. I can't judge which is worse until this season has finished. I think both GRRM and D&D are better story tellers than Christopher Nolan or Damien Lindeloff :D I think if GRRM is a good writer, he would write. I don't think being a good story teller and a good writer are the same thing.

You missed what I meant - I think the show has become popular enough to definitely finish. It will resolve. I'm not sure that the books will finish. I personally don't have much faith in this saga concluding on page, so, given that I'm not a gambler, I'll go with what I consider the safer bet.

Yes, they both have flaws. And, they both have good points. But, at this stage, it seems more likely the show will finish telling the story than the books. We can debate whether plot point A in the show is better and more direct than plot point B in the books, or that dialogue C in the books is better written than dialogue D in the show but all of it is for naught if the story doesn't resolve. Also, the show has more fans. You can debate the book is better than the show and that show fans are unsullied, uncultured, beneath the true experience, or whatever - but none of this changes that the books would never have become half as popular as they are if it wasn't for the show.

I would agree with this entirely - and the coming darkness in GoTs isn't just in you face stuff like murder, forced marriages to pshycos and stuff - it's about some of the things Dany is starting to exhibit. Nice, decent people don't really stand a chance at killing monsters - monsters kill monsters. It's about how the darkness in one human heart creates darkness in others, until the lights go out entirely. The hope is that, when the lights come back on, a decent few are left. I can't wait to see who survives the Long Night :) Well, I think it is becoming increasingly clear the fAegon, Jon Con, the Pale Mare, the Ironborn, Sansa and Arianne have very little to do with the end game. Dorne must have something to do with it, otherwise why include it? If the show is any indication, it seems like Jamie may end up in Dorne in TWoW. Though, including the Sandsnakes still seems like a strange choice, other than wanting some new sassy looking chicks for ratings. They were uninspired in book and even less inspired in show - I just don't get the need for them at all.

The skeletons in 410 sucked - they shrieked, which is utterly fucking ridiculous because they didn't have lungs :D As for whether Stonemen are more plausible than dragons - I'm thinking that the ability to breath fire is far more fantastical than a skin disease which kills the victim. Just try and consider the physics of containing the type of heat needed for fire inside a living body - it's pretty out there. But the dragons look cool, except for 502 puppy dog eye Drogon, so, meh, you go with it. In a way, you put up with demographically inspired subplots like the love affair of a dickless man, so that HBO has the budget to make cool looking dragons.