ummester

They will end up at the place GRRM planned things to end back when he signed the show. The details may be different but the broad strokes and ideas will be GRRMs. Of course, GRRM may be writing towards a slightly different ending now - which may be improved on the one he described to D&D, or may not. This is why I always suggest we really cant tell which narrative is better overall until all is said and done in both show and books.

Some of these things are the nature of the commercial art beast. Art for arts sake, commercial art for profits sake. Most authors want to be published and most published authors want to hit the big time, but there is always a price. If you write a book and I front the money to publish it, its only fair that I have some say in what needs to be changed, because its my investment.

So do I, trust me - so do I. If it all turns to shit, I will become a Rant and Raver against the show :D

Some of this stuff is a matter of interpretation and opinion, so arguing it is pointless. Grey Worm and Missandei is about target audiences/demographics and that kind of stuff, it's the price we have to pay when something reaches mainstream popularity. I don't think they are necessary either, though I do think the Missandei actress is nice eye candy and understand that without them the show probably wouldn't get the budget it does, They are a necessary evil on the show. Dinner with the Boltons may be something from TWoW, or something that was originally planned for TWoW - we just don't know. But that scene was cool. It was funny and Roose just owned in it.

She had her dummy spit, calmed down, thought it through and realised that Hizzadar (or whatever) may be right and some traditions need to be embraced. As for why would a human make the dumb decision to roast a master, well, she's not quite human - she's a genetically enhanced dragonlord that can survive fires (in the show) and thinks her children are dragons. Before the series is done, I'm sure Dany will fully embrace her reign of fire destiny and more than a single master will be devoured by her babies.

I was never suggesting he lost focus - only that he expanded beyond his original plan, possibly as a result of the HBO deal and now that expansion is beyond what the show can cater for. So this season, season 5, is going to bring out the greatest difference because the show is refining at the point the books were expanding. I think S6 will be similar to TWoW and Season 7 similar to A Time for Wolves ADoS but right here, in season 5, everyone will be like what the fuck is going on?

They did that to make her seem more affirmative and in control - more a WIP. She fed that dude to her dragons coz she was emotionally stressed about Barriston. When that emotional stress passed, she calmed down and became her assertive WIP show self. Your wife has never gotten all hormonal on you and then come in after and said 'sorry' in an ultra guff voice? :D It's consistent characterisation, it's just not exactly the same as the book.

Yes, so here, where we should have this discussion logically and reasonably and you shy away from it. Why?

How can this be derailing? It's what this thread is for - a discussion on the books vs the show. I think that you and many book fans just don't want to embrace a balanced discussion about what works and fails with both presentations.

Fjordgazer, Yes, the books have more internal logic than the show - I can admit that. They are complicated fantasy novels with a large focus on world and character building, if they didn't have an internal logic, their fans wouldn't like them. Can you admit that AFFC and ADwD, relative to the 1st 3 books, took an unexplainably longer time to be written and contained many subplots and new characters that did not always seem directly related to the narratives set up in the 1st 3 books?

Posters, why cant we play the ball and not the player? Have a debate on the show vs the books without getting upset at each other? Why take it personally? Unless you are GRRM or D&D, that have a vested interest, they are just things made to entertain us that we can discuss the finer points of.

If GRRM concluded the saga with books 4 & 5, written with the complexity and narrative drive of ASoS, then everyone would have been happy. It would have been finished in writing first, keeping all fans of the books pleased and given D&D a clear blueprint to follow for the show. And, 2 more books as plot heavy as ASoS would easily have turned into 4 seasons. I remember thinking the end of ASoS was almost too fast, like the author was staying up all night on crack trying to get it all out :D But it was all there, a complete and detailed narrative that addressed everything it needed to. I suspect that getting signed with HBO caused GRRM to change his plan - I don't suspect anything nefarious, or underhanded - I just suspect GRRM tried to expand because he thought it was the best way to service a TV show. He planted all the trees that he thought would be cool, that will probably never be used, because TV show has to service the actors that service it.

The last 2 books are long and boring, I think Lovely Lyanna is correct in that. I also agree with her that the show is not perfect but it is trying to salvage what it can and tell a faster, more immediate story. In terms of effort put into the whole ASoIaF/GoTs project, if we plotted it over time, I'd say GRRMs has gone from 150% down to 30% and D&Ds has remained a consistent 90%. Who knows how it will all end up - but I'd put money on the ones that keep trying to actually deliver something on schedule.

yea, when they fire suit an actor its ok though, because the flames move right. The dragon scene started like that - it was after, when the body was on the ground, just before the dragons pulled it in two halves. I just watched it again - the body pretty much disappears. It's weird, it just turns into blood - but after, the dragons are eating 2 halves of solid body. The T-rexes in Jurrasic Park pull bodies apart in a more satisfying manner, and that's a kids show :D

Ramsay was very entertaining - am hyped for Bolton's vs Stannis in a way the books never made me. Also, loved the scene with Dany feeding people to her dragons, even if the CG human body looked shoddy. But man, it is so different to the books now - they have totally diverged.

AFFC and ADWD got boring. Season 5 of GoTs seems a bit disjointed. We will not be able to tell, until both show and books have concluded, which show changes work towards better story telling and which work against. You can tell that things in the show are different than the books. You can prefer one or the other, show or books. What you cannot do is assume one is telling a better story, until both have finished telling their stories.

Something cannot be adapted without changing it - all adaptation requires change. You are supposing GRRM made a mistake in trusting D&D - GRRM has never said it, has he? If you cannot see the bias in how your argument is presented - then you have a certain level off delusion that cannot be helped and the whole conversation is mute moot.

That was almost funny - almost.

That is a valid criticism. There is no validity in the proof of D&D disrespecting GRRM's work, however.

When someone is arguing that their little nephew or whatever can write better then someone else, grammar is not a mute point, it has been made part of that argument. You must be taking the piss, otherwise there really seems to be something wrong with you cognition. The conversation started because you said the show proves that D&D disrespect GRRM's work. It is your opinion that the D&D disrespect GRRM's work - there was no proof that this is the case and there still isn't. To the contrary, there is proof that GRRM accepted D&D to adapt his work - so, at at least one stage, we can assume GRRM thought D&D did respect his work.

Have you seen this Monty Python sketch? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y What you are doing is exactly like this. An argument is not the same as a contradiction :D

Man, you have some kind of crush on Martin';s words, don't you?

Well, it is just opinion, ultimately. And, GRRM is not even close to Shakespeare, as a comparison, he is closer to Rowling. I am arguing against your POV, that the book is so perfect and the show is so flawed - because your POV is fundamentalist and flawed. I'm not really arguing for or against the show or books.

Just because some-one doesn't hate the show, doesn't make them a D&D fanboy :D It doesn't have to be either/or - you can see good and bad points in both.

HBO likely own the rights to profit from the world of Game of Thrones. Of course Martin can write what he wants - HBO just gets to profit from it all now. Do you think if someone put 'Official A Song of Ice and Fire' stamp on a Tyrion doll it would mean more to the average consumer than an 'Official Game of Thrones' stamp. Game of Thrones has become the franchise that is worth something, not ASoIaF. Yes, I know an opinion is just an opinion and no, there is no quantifiable way to prove Shakespeare is better than Rowling - there is only opinion. The only thing quantifiable is financial worth and I think it is unarguable that Game of Thrones the franchise is worth more than Martin's books will ever be in that sense.