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Adeimantus

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About Adeimantus

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  1. Adeimantus

    [Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

    I said it before, but I really think that's the issue. If you dig down into the minor lines of the last two episodes, particularly this one, you realize the desperation. You just don't feel the desperation, as it isn't conveyed effectively. They were already in dire straits before Ramsay's Seal Team Six came in, and it got much worse after that. The key point was his discussion with Davos, when it was said that the loss of so many horses and so much food supplies made it impossible to move forward or to go back. As the storm blew and winter got worse, his army was going to die there without a single battle. They were doomed, and by extension the realm was doomed too (in Stannis's mind). I think there just wasn't enough air time, which means that scenes like the Sand Snake's slapping game better actually end up carrying some weight later. Otherwise, the minutes were there elsewhere in the last two episodes to build up the tension more with Stannis.
  2. Adeimantus

    [Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

    For the geography argument to work, you have to make the assumption that Shireen will be sacrificed soon, which is not necessarily the case. If Mel sacrifices her to counter FTW, then yes, Stannis would be too far away to have anything to do with that. However, if that doesn't happen and if Stannis is victorious at the Battle of Winterfell (or at least survives with most of his army), then there is enough time for Stannis to reunite with Mel and Co. It doesn't matter if that involves his army traveling back to the Wall or his family joining him as he goes farther south working to unite Westeros. Either way, it's a logistical possibility for book!Stannis to still sacrifice Shireen. It just depends how that event plays itself out in the books, which we don't know yet. For all we know, Shireen could survive through a third to half of book 6, plenty of time for her to reunite with him and for a new situation to arise that leaves Stannis and his army in dire straits (e.g. another major battle in Westeros or a major battle against the WW).
  3. Adeimantus

    [Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

    I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned much in the latter part of this thread. However, I don't think it was a very warped, fucked up way (aside from the obvious child angle). Nissa Nissa's murder was itself very warped and fucked up, so really they're on a similar level. Because it's a past legend, rather than something happening on screen, I suppose the emotional impact isn't as heavy for viewers, but Stannis hasn't acted that differently in this regard from a legendary hero.
  4. Adeimantus

    [Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

    As many others have said, I think Thorne is basically Severus Snape. Total dick, but not a "bad guy." I hate Ollie's character, not in itself like others do (though he can be obnoxious), but because book!Bowen Marsh was a better character for that role. The long-time Lord Steward of the Night's Watch, wanting to do what's right but horrified by Jon Snow's radical moves? Even though he's wrong,* continuing to focus too much on Wildlings when there are friggin' Whitewalkers and wights coming, you still sympathize with him to a degree. The image from the book when he says, "For the Watch," with tears in his eyes at the betrayal he is about to commit, is burned in my mind. Ollie instead committing the betrayal because of "me mum and dad" just doesn't have nearly the same effect. Marsh and Co. weren't just angry and vengeful; they had solid (if misguided) reasons. With show!Marsh marginalized and show!Thorne still at Castle Black instead of on a ranging, Thorne gets a lot of book!Marsh's lines of warning. It makes me think that maybe he will take Marsh's place in FTW, but I still wouldn't predict that. *Up until Jon's Pink Letter reaction, which is much more debatable. I'm more referring to the general attitude against Jon's preparations for the WW.
  5. Adeimantus

    [Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

    Oh God, that was great. I immediately noticed that in the moment but had forgotten it later after all the stabbitystab lol.
  6. Adeimantus

    [Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

    I think the situation was really desperate, but like you said, the build-up/tension was terrible. They had spent some time working at it, at least. Stannis said last episode that they have to fight now or they will lose, and this episode, Ramsay Snow's plan (???) went off perfectly, turning an already dire situation even worse. They really needed a few more minutes to convey truly how bad it was, but on the practical level, they just might not have had that in this hour.
  7. Adeimantus

    [Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

    Yup. I would quibble over the timing of this particular atrocity in the pursuit of his overall goal, as he didn't quite feel broken down enough to go to those extremes (that is, the show didn't adequately convey that). Still, this is who Stannis is. He's the guy who sailed north with his army to save the Night's Watch after being reminded by Davos that his duty as king took priority over his actual recognition as king. He's also the guy who is willing to sacrifice anything for the good of the realm. That includes himself, I believe, but it can also include anyone around him. Remember, this is the guy who quite likely would have sacrificed Edric Storm, a likeable, kind boy and his own blood, if it wasn't for the intervention of Davos.
  8. Adeimantus

    [Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

    Yeah, Stannis isn't evil in himself. He believes it is his duty to save the realm, and he is utterly focused on that single endeavor, no matter the cost. Does anyone think Westeros stands a chance if the Boltons are still ruling the North? No, they must be displaced, or the continent is doomed. Thus, the decisions he makes aren't just for his own sake but for everyone's sake. The key phrase, though, is "no matter the cost." I might be paraphrasing, but Ned Stark once told Jon Snow that Stannis was "just, but cold." Davos is a living example of this treatment: He was knighted for saving Stannis under siege during Robert's Rebellion but lost three fingers for his previous career smuggling. In Stannis's mind, justice still needed to be served for past crimes, with no pardon given even under the extraordinary circumstances. Stannis is a righteous man, but one who is rigid in his views on justice and duty. Any veering away from the narrow path he has set for himself would not simply be adapting to specific circumstances while maintaining an overall moral framework (like for your average righteous person). It would in fact be a gross violation of his integrity. The character arc of Stannis is meant to show what happens to a righteous man who is rigid in his thinking, with the contamination of religious fanaticism added in. Like I said, he is not an evil man, but his strict sense of duty can lead him to some evil acts in the name of the greater good, the ends justifying the means. The intention is for readers/viewers to sympathize with his sense of justice and (specific to the storyline) his appreciation for the only war that really matters, while also being disturbed by some of the choices he makes to fulfill these ends. It's consistent with Martin's message of good people being capable of horrific things. There are people like this in the real world, though most don't wield the kind of power that Stannis does in ASOIAF/GoT. I don't think the show did enough to really establish the dire straits his army was in or his own moral quandary. They were on the verge of total defeat without even going into battle against the Boltons. The situation was desperate, and Stannis was running out of options. They showed his conflict between his love for his daughter and his devotion to his duty to save the realm, but it needed a lot more development. I don't think they really gave it enough screen time for the decision be fully believable (just as I didn't find Selyse's last-moment change of heart to be that believable). His decision to burn Shireen for the greater good fits in the long-term arc of his character, but he didn't quite feel "there" yet at this point in that arc.
  9. Adeimantus

    [Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

    It's a good question concerning what the book motivations for burning Shireen will be. I suspect that in book 6, it won't actually be the Battle of Winterfell that leads him to burn her but a later battle after they are reunited, whether it be back at the Wall or on the march farther south to unite Westeros against the Whitewalker threat. Prediction: Stannis will die at the hands of Selyse. That would extend the parallel between Stannis and Agamemnon (and the sacrifice of their daughters) to also include being murdered by their respective wives. Though it was a bit abrupt (and not entirely believable) in the on-air execution, Selyse's change of heart in the middle of Shireen's burning could be setting up this eventual end.
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