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Posts posted by BalerionTheCat

  1. I believe D&D made quite a few changes. Not for the best IMO. I don't believe GRRM will make the same mistakes. So the show doesn't impair in any way my view of the (yet to come) books.

    But even if badly told, the show went about where I expected the books to go. So I'm even more eagerly expecting the last 2 books. The story told exactly as GRRM intends it. Or if he can't finish it, at least he (or someone else) tells us what were the objectives, the purpose of the story. Because I don't believe GRRM is telling just a little story without claims.

    A few things I believe will be different. The Long Night will happen. The Others will reach south, at least KL. They come for a purpose, are not just a mindless calamity like a disease. As in the Yi Ti legend, they come to punish the sins of men. They will not be defeated in a big battle (that would justify violence). They will leave only after inflicting the intended punishment. The 7K will be utterly destroyed. Westeros will return to the Old Gods and their weirwoods. Bran will not be a king, but a greenseer. He will stay in the cave, for centuries or millennia. Not in the flesh, but living in the weirwoods, like the other greenseers of the cave. Jon will live with the Free Folk. All Westeros will be more or less like the North of Ned Stark was. More tribes and clans than large kingdoms. He will not be a king, but something between Ned Stark, Mance and the LC of the NW. Bran and he will work to keep peace and avoid large conflicts.

  2. The show is not the books. Plenty is things and ways of telling it, was D&D. And meant to be shocking, unexpected rather that logically constructed. But it is also GRRM style to be shocking. Ned, Robb and Cat for example. And it is not because the characters are loved, that the deaths were not gruesome. He is certainly not saving a character he intended to kill from the beginning. Because he constructed everything for it, and it's part of the main theme. As in Tuf Voyaging: "absolute power corrupts absolutely". The nuclear bomb, particularly if only one has it, is not a solution for peace. Because it doesn't entice to compromises acceptable by all parties.

    The delay is because GRRM is never satisfied. Hurrying to match a deadline pushes him to write things he doesn't really like. So he rewrites. But the objectives remain the same.

  3. 8 hours ago, Miss_Saffron said:

    Absolutely. The part of your post I've bolded is, IMHO, the best, most succint description of the trajectory of Dany's character development I've seen on this forum so far. 

    Thank you:)

    6 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

    Sure. And that falls into the category I brought up up thread: readers who dismiss the text because of their biases (love or hatred for any character) are the ones who engage in wishful thinking the most.

    Absolutely. Some are disregarding the text because of prejudged ideas. Because I don't know why, hatred of fictional characters. But also, some value some concepts differently, war justification, vengeance, power seeking, freedom of choice, self determination, whatever.

  4. 50 minutes ago, SeanF said:

    She does not deserve criticism for the actual behaviour of the Slavers.  That's very much the "look what you made me do" line of argument. 

    The plague was rather Cleon's. But IMO it doesn't matter. Cleon is dead, the slavers will die. She took charge there and made mistakes. Things gone worse and there is no evidence it will go much better after she leaves. It didn't do well for Astapor. And yet she was the town next door. With reports of Cleon incompetence. Taking charge is taking responsibility.

  5. 6 hours ago, Miss_Saffron said:

    the Unhinged Pyromaniac

    I don't know if she will turn "Unhinged Pyromaniac". Her father did after the duress of Duskendale. At least we can't say the possibility doesn't exist in ASoIaF universe. But honestly, I believe this part is rather for Cersei. She already has the lust for wildfire. And those theories of "A+J" fit her and Jaime better than Tyrion.

    But other people, people written to be loved, turned unexpectedly the wrong way after errors made in time of despair, without any intent to cause harm. Catelyn Stark among them. Some just died, like Robb and Ned. I believe there is a constant in GRRM story: people pay for their errors.

    Dany choices in the Slaver Bay had terrible consequences. Astapor is gone, the Pale Mare seems unchecked. We just have a little feeling these days of what a great plague is. We can't ignore what GRRM is writing.

  6. 1 hour ago, SeanF said:

    Despite Martin reiterating that he has no interest in creating a Dark Lord, there are those who insist that Daenerys is the Dark Queen.

    There is a difference between a Dark Lord and a fate turning bad. Diffeent shades. Robb, Jaime, Tywin, Walder Frey, Lysa Arryn, Lady Stoneheart, Cersei...

    BTW, I believe Dark Load was about the Others. They are not Sauron.

  7. 3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

    As you said though, Mance had other solutions. He only tried to negotiate after the NW bled him dry. He tried to save his people without making a single attempt to reach a diplomatic solution with the NW

    Jon lost his life after letting a few men thru. Not Mance and all his people. Do you think there was a peaceful solution with those in command? Bowen, Slynt, Pyke, Mallister? Ned beheaded the last man telling him the others were coming. The NW lost maybe half their men at the Fist. But they were still not letting the FF in. Maybe Mance came to WF to see Robert, Benjen., the northern lords. But he didn't find anyone likely to listen.

  8. 4 hours ago, SeanF said:

    I agree.  I support both Dany and the Starks.  Even if there does come a point in the tale where they come into political conflict, I expect Martin would present them all sympathetically.  Hating a character is just weird, unless that character is actually written to be hateful.  None of Dany, Jon, Sansa, Arya, or Bran is written to be hateful.

    When I first joined this site, in 2011, it was dominated by people who detested Daenerys, and it took me some while before I realised just how one-sided their analysis was.

    It was what I thought in the beginning. And certainly while completely different in their experiences, Jon and Dany are much the same. If Dany had been raised by Ned Stark. With many people putting her so low, never expecting anything good from a bastard. And Jon had been raised by his bitter, resentful, abusive older brother. A prince with ambitions of recovering his lost birthright. Then I would expect their arcs reversed. They are the same stuff, but life made them different.

    Dany is a good person. At start. But she is lost and goes deeper and deeper in shit. She is surrounded by wrong people, or likely to be: dothrakis, ironborns (Victarion or Euron, you chose), red priests, sellswords of any kind, the Green Grace and the Shavepate Her odds are impossibly hard. She dreams of peace, planting trees and a red door. But she does all sorts of hurts because of one personal ambition. She doesn't intend. But the consequences are there. And the price will have to be paid.

    I thought someone would go to her help at some point. And clean up the slate. Like in many stories, things are bad and then unexpectedly, miraculously improve. But I don't think it's GRRM style. When you make an error, you pay the price. You die. Ask Ned or Robb or Renly. Plenty of others. I don't know, but Meereen was a really bad turn for her.

    And I deeply, deeply believe GRRM is against war when other solutions exists. The hundreds of pages of TWoIaF and F&B are not there to glorify war. Not for me anyway. Mance did a war to cross the Wall. It was not for conquest, only to save his people from the Others. But even this one failed. However the peaceful solution was possible only after Jon became LC. So hard to accept for the NW it cost his life (temporarily).

  9. 10 hours ago, Mon ami said:

    Dany is not really totalitarian.  Westeros and its High Lords are the totalitarians

    Oh yes, that good old Janos again. Never far in praises from Bowen and noble Ramsay. All Cersei arse lickers.

    All Westeros nobility is totalitarian. Asking oaths of obedience under threat of death is not totalitarian? And expecting generation after generation to follow these oaths? And Dany wants the top of the pyramid. By Fire and Blood, whatever the cost.

  10. On 7/5/2020 at 11:26 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

    Jon fans on the other hand believe:

    I'm 100% Jon fan. But I don't see much of this.

    I'm not sure about defeating the Boltons. The North remembers, the Manderly, Dustin, others. They don't really need Stannis. He is the diversion at the end of the mummer show. Maybe Jon will have other priorities at this point.
    I'm not sure he will be King. Winter or North. Maybe king of the Free Folk after Mance.

    Maybe he will go south. To war against Dany. I don't think he will lead and win a war against the Others. I don't think the others can be defeated. I don't think GRRM plan is to save Westeros with the biggest battle of anytime. But by reaching a peace agreement with the Others or getting the help of the Old Gods. It's what Jon is good at, find agreements.

    I don't think Jon will love Dany. They are opposite. She is totalitarianism, all decisions are hers and all serve her. And he is anarchy. Like the Free Folk, everyone decide for themselves. Only band together in case of danger. Yes, maybe he will come to kill her. His love is Val, not Dany.

  11. Maybe the raven words are a too obvious a cue. Jon is also the only surviving son of Rhaegar. Bastard or legitimate don't really matter. For the Free Folk, even the son of who you are doesn't matter. You are their king because they believe in what you say and do. And because they believe their fate will be better following who than anyone else. And they will help you, stand with you. Because your goals are their goals.

    I'm convinced Jon will be their chosen king, leader. No crown and no glory. No more than Mance. Maybe more than the Free Folk will listen to Jon. Maybe no one will want anymore of the kings that led them to this disaster.

  12. I agree neither Stannis nor Shireen will survive, or be in a position to claim Storm's End by the end. So it would logically go Edric. But IMO he is too minor a character, and the story is already late for him to develop. There will be plenty of opportunities for him to die.

    IMO the place is set for Gendry. The world will be different after the LN. The aloft, uncaring lords dead. I hope those replacing them will be more caring, will have a better understanding of the common folk, like Davos and Gendry. Like Egg had. Like fAgeon has. But of course he is cannon fodder for Dany.

    Robert said to Ned they should marry their children. He was talking of Joffrey and Sansa. But it fits nicely with Gendry and Arya. They would be quite unconventional lord and lady of Storm's End.

    IMO Mya will stay with Sansa. Probably in the Vale.

  13. 1 hour ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

    I think the message of the series has been unity, and having Westeros divided is antithetical to that.

    As Ned's "the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives". Or Mance uniting the Free Folk to cross the Wall. But it must be a choice coming from people needing to stick together to face a problem. Not something forced on them by war and conquest. The 7K is a failure.

    I believe the message would rather be: "absolute power leads to wars each time the center of power moves". And the bigger the power, the bigger the casualties.

  14. 9 hours ago, Roswell said:

    their glorious reign

    Bloody glorious. War at nearly each generation. Their own feuds, madness, insanity as often as not.

    9 hours ago, Roswell said:

    The people evidently recognized them as their legitimate rulers.

    No.  The conqueror was a burglar and murderer. He came into their houses and said: "gimme all you have or I'll kill you all". Houses some had built maybe 10 millennia ago. It was not a choice. Then he pretend the people were his, to do as he wanted. As much as the slavers his fathers were.

  15. 18 hours ago, Son of Man said:

    Robert and Ned could have gone into exile

    Do you remember Duskendale? Aerys was mad. Robert and Ned were not guilty of anything. If they fled, it would have been Stannis and Benjen heads. Then all their houses. Maybe the Arryns and  the Tullys too. What is insane is this crazy unfit man was sitting the IT. At some point the madness had to end. What is insane is so many people died for it.

    18 hours ago, Son of Man said:

    The worst kind of war is where the two sides are evenly matched.

    Would you think giving dragons or the nuclear power to Aerys, Viserys, Brightflame or the Young Dragon is a good idea? Read Tuf Voyaging if you don't know what GRRM thinks of war and absolute power as a problem solver.

    18 hours ago, Son of Man said:

    Those lords who meet her will be impressed.

    For sure:rofl:

    Dany is a pawn. She is played by everyone in Meereen who know she will not stay and seek to occupy the vacuum of power she will left. She will be played by the Red Priests in their war against the Ice. She was played by Illrio. Like Cersei, queens of the chess board. But pawn in players hand nonetheless. This story is a game with players and pawns. LF, ASoS Sansa VI:


    Every man’s a piece to start with, and every maid as well. Even some who think they are players ... Cersei, for one. She thinks herself sly, but in truth she is utterly predictable

  16. 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

    That just doesn't seem likely at all. Those books never fit with the original planning.

    The original planning is I believe long (and thankfully) forgotten.

    But yes, he changes his plans often. If publishing is "sticking to what is already out, and go on with that", while not publishing is "great, I've a new idea, I should rewrite all again, And I can because it's not yet published". Then yes delaying publication would not help.

    But he must now find a way to reach his destination without adding whole new books because the previous ones are not providing the foundations he need now. Whatever is the best way, I believe he has to stick to minimum of stability if he want one day finish the job.

  17. 7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

    Do you think he reached any point of the story he should have reached in a book named 'A Dance with Dragons'?

    No, he did not. That is why I believe it was an error to release the book when he had the count of pages. Even if I was glad at the time to have another book. Time was passing, count of pages was increasing. But the achievement was not there.

  18. 20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

    They came out pretty quickly after one another, but George started writing them in 1993, and ASoS only came out in 2000.

    So it seems he used a lot of time improving, polishing, his ideas before publishing the 1st 3. He didn't need a lot of time writing and rewriting ACoK and ASoS if he wrote them one after the other. But yes, the story was easier to write then.

    22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

    Oh, we no longer are in the aftermath of ASoS. That ended with the second half of ADwD.

    So AFfC and ADwD were the aftermath. Jon's death, Bran meeting BR are new things. Of course TWoW should see big changes.

    27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

    But George's writing style was never to stick to a plan.

    Yes I know.

    27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

    Bottom line is - I don't think (m)any people would like to read a rushed book by George R. R. Martin.

    My intent was not to ask for rushing, for changing his process of writing. But to work more efficiently. I believe by writing more before publishing. Yes, he is a gardener, not an architect. The ideas coming with writing. What I hope he is doing with TWoW by writing until he reaches a point in the story rather than a number of pages.

  19. 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

    You mean like he only published everything in one volume with the story that was supposed to be AGoT - which was everything until the death of Tywin and Lysa?

    The 1st 3 books came in a relatively quick succession. And it seems he knew exactly where to go and how to write it. So it would have been: waiting 3 years and publish together the 3 books as we know them. Or one book, a big one, but less than the 3 together. Maybe 2 parts. A more compact story than we know. But it would not make sense, because there was no problem to start with.

    1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

    That isn't happening. It is insane to assume that a book in a series which is now down to a book per decade would be postponed for conceptual reasons.

    It is going to be published as soon as they have a full book worth of material - like it was with ADwD.

    The problem is after. He spent years writing the next 2 books. And it seems the story has not really progressed. We're still in the aftermath of ASoS. I like these 2 books as much as the previous. There is plenty to tell and I would not complain. Except he is now running out of time. Rather than spending years fixing and rewriting chapters that were maybe not necessary or better done differently, it seems his time may have been better used drafting... and possibly discarding chapter as soon as he discovers they're not fitting with the rest of the story. Maybe he could have come to less writing in total and it would be finished now.

  20. On 6/24/2020 at 3:28 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

    Robert's Rebellion killed a lot of people.  Has our author given us the numbers of those who died in these conflicts? 

    I mean after he was king. But I don't think the rebelion killed more than Maegor. Or the conqueror. Or the Dance. Anyway Aerys was asking his head. What was he to do? But yes, his incompetence and the mess after his death, the coming of Dany and the Others will kill much more than anything else.

  21. 5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

    There is no chance he writes two books without publishing the first half of it if that's a book in its own right. That would be insane.

    And if he writes one half. Publish it. Then starts the second half and discover he need more than one half to get where he intended. Then another half, and then... Why not decide to release TWoW only when the story reaches a given point? For example Dany in route for Westeros, the Others coming south, and so on. So that he is confident (as much as we can hope) he could finish the story in one book. At this point I believe a little planning ahead would be welcome. If he wants to reach his destination. And so be it if TWoW is the size of 1.5 or 1.9 books. His editor should think of the future sales if the story is never finished.

    46 minutes ago, Kyll.Ing. said:

    As a rule of thumb, if there had been any substantial news about the writing process of TWoW there, you wouldn't have to look behind a paywall to find it.

    Sure. Anyway, he didn't gave interviews. No one has more than what is in his post, except their own speculations.

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