BalerionTheCat

Nice. But I think it's stretching more than GRRM planned.

And yes, she has stakes in this enterprise. Revenge quite possibly. Maybe the daughter of someone of the GC. She doesn't have to be someone we know by another name or story... Even if her past is intriguing and we want to know more.

None. The Throne is half the woes of Westeros and should be destroyed. The bigger the stakes, the larger the battles.

The land should revert to so small kingdoms, an organisation like the Night Watch, made of volunteers from every place, could deal with most the troubles stirred by so petty lords.

5 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

My personal belief is that we are gonna lose Jon as a POV, simply because he will be going through drastical changes and critical times. That's why Melisandre may had been introduced as a POV: To replace Jon.

This is also what I think is the most likely. Jon becomes some kind of mystery. We're not allowed to see his game. Melisandre is the PoV.

I don't think we will have Jon's chapters with Ghost's body.

3 hours ago, Nevets said:

I think Ramsay has all the info he needs, especially if he has beaten Stannis (or thinks he has). That would give him prisoners from Stannis's camp, who would know Arya is on her way to the Wall, with a headstart, and Stannis's interest in Val and the baby.

I doubt he has beaten Stannis at the time of the letter (or after). Stannis camp is at one day of Winterfell. And I doubt Ramsay believes Theon and Jeyne survived to get there. Less yet that Stannis  would care to send them to the Wall.

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Mance currently isn't having a wonderful time in Winterfell

Mance could have prepared the letter in advance. As a back up plan. But would that be to save his skin? I don't see Mance risking his people life for an unlikely rescue. Or maybe this plan came once in Winterfell. And for another purpose.

The washer women could have men talking. And Mance may know more about the mood inside Winterfell. The conspiracy if you like. Or the mummers' show some name it. And he may know that the Boltons are done. And he may think that attacking Winterfell in winter is not that suicidal. So bringing his Free Folk to the help of Arya and the demise of the Bolton would be a good move. To get them accepted by the Northmen.

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

? This obviously happens after Reek has escaped and delivered to Stannis and before any battle. PL is claimed to be written after Bolton victory over Stannis, meaning battle. 

After Theon's escape yes. But before any battle. Beside, Nestoris must find Mors Umber then Stannis. There is more time for Mance.

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Stannis wants Jon not as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch but Lord of Winterfell. We all know how that has worked out with Jon so far.

I see the logic of faking death to force Jon to act. But I don't think Jon would act for Stannis. Nor for Winterfell. And I believe Stannis knows that too. Maybe for Arya. But do Stannis believe it?

I understand we can build a case for Stannis. More than for Ramsay. But I think Manse makes the most sense.

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

He knows Reek

OK. But I don't think this happened before the Pink Letter. I believe, if Stannis wanted something from Jon or the Free Folk, he would order it plainly, as the king he is. I don't think Stannis' letter would say he was defeated and dead either. He would just talk about the bride. Maybe his family and Val. Maybe Reek, but no one cares at the Wall.

I don't think the letter is Ramsay's. But I don't think it's Stannis either.

19 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I admit there are some things that would suggest Ramsay may not be the author, but I think the alternatives (Stannis, Mance) are an even worse fit. It may be of dubious origin but I still think Ramsay or someone on his side wrote it.

I don't think Stannis would use this kind of trick. He would not know or fake: "my Reek". I"m not sure he even knows about Mance's plan, specifically the 6 washer women.

I don't think Ramsay would care and ask for Val. Neither for Melisandre. Probably not for anyone else, supposing the knew them.

Mance is the one with all the knowledge to write this letter. The letter is infuriating. It has only for effect to draw the wildlings (and probably the queen's men too) to assault Winterfell. Ramsay is not that stupid. He doesn't need the wildlings siding with the rebel Northmen.

Mance is in a bit in a hurry at the end of ADwD, but I think he could have prepared the letter before, when he and the girls had more or less the freedom of the caste. As a back up plan.

On 9/25/2022 at 2:21 PM, StarkTullies said:

I agree with earlier comments that "justice" doesn't always go to the most expected person.  Most people on Arya's list will be dead before the end of the story, I think, but most won't be at Arya's hand.  Petyr/Olenna took out Joffrey... not the Starks or any of the countless other people Joffrey wronged.  Etc.  I don't think Jeyne or Theon will kill Ramsay either,

It would be absurd to claim that every villain will be killed by the one having a death wish on him or her. But I believe it will happen for some. Even if it's not always obvious who is the most legitimate to the claim.

For example, Tywin is Tyrion's father. He should have protected him. But Tywin was the first and foremost to mock him. Not a wonder why Cersei and most everyone went to hate and despise Tyrion. Not Jaime. A wonder a young boy, despite everything that was said around him loved and protected his little brother.

There are different theories about who is the Valonqar. But I believe it's Jaime. And it makes a lot of sense. Because however much she harmed people, Cersei didn't ruin anyone's life more than Jaime's. Some maybe. But they were not her kin, and it may have been somewhat legitimate defense. Tyrion was legitimate for Tywin. Not for Cersei.

Arya has a long kill list. But she may only get a few of them. The Mountain, for example. The Martels had at least as much a claim on him than Arya. Concerning the Freys, I believe Cat is more legitimate to them than Arya. Cat just needs to know the part of Littlefinger in the Red Weeding, her girlhood friend she trusted..

Robert was killed by a boar. But because wolves had killed the White Hart before. Whether the wolves were led by Nymeria or were plain, Robert was killed by wolves (and his stupidity and drunkenness). One would say in retribution for killing Lady, the protector of his future daughter in law. It was Robert who made the decision, not Cersei. Maybe Arya got this one.

I would not draw a list of who will kill who, only because it is justice. But I think il will happen quite a few times.

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Otherwise I can only see Jon allying with them as part of a longer, built up process where he goes down the road of villainy due to his mounting frustrations with everything/one.

I don't think Jon will follow that road.

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think before Jon would ever ally with the Others there would need to be some revelation about their nature or the CotF or the original pact.

Something along that.

We need to know more about what the Others want. And why they return. I believe we need to meet their conditions. Because they cannot be defeated. And otherwise everyone will die. It is, I believe, as in the Yi Ti legends: "came forth in all his wroth to punish the wickedness of men". Given the current situation, I feel there is indeed need of punishing some wickedness.

Whether he is restored by the Others because he is the promised prince, or otherwise, he must come to an agreement with them. Otherwise, it is the end of humankind. The current cycle of violence and atrocities will end, one way or another.

9 hours ago, Rondo said:

Issues of bastardry will be far in the back of Jon's minds.  He will be raised as a wight by the white walkers.  He will keep his free will because his consciousness will be in Ghost or some other animal nearby.  I just hope it's not Craster's son whose body Jon steals.  The poor little fellow is too young to resist a skinchanger.  

I suppose Jon will have to deal with Ramsay. But I don't think it will be at Winterfell. The Dreadfort maybe. Stannis will have taken back Winterfell (mostly the work of Northmen though, and their mummer's show). Ramsay will have killed his father during the confusion, and fled.

For this particular task, and some alike, I would not mind Jon to be accompanied by the Others.

On 9/22/2022 at 10:31 PM, Craving Peaches said:

Could Ramsay end up killing Roose?

I think so. Even in the best case scenario. Roose is not Ned. He would not teach the same values. In no way he seems to disapprove Ramsay murderous attitude. Even against himself or his children to come.
 

18 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think Ramsay's mother was probably the worst influence on him. I always got the sense that she was the one who hammered into him that he was a true Bolton, the Dreadfort was his etc. I think she was most likely involved in (and possibly the mastermind behind) the Domeric poisoning plot.

Well, Roose raped her and killed her husband. You could expect she wanted revenge. He blames her and Reek. But someway, it's still Roose's neglect.

On 9/8/2022 at 1:23 AM, Craving Peaches said:

Jon would realise that he was nothing like Ramsay when he confronts him, so he wouldn't fear taking command anymore and would become a better leader.

I think Jon's problem with command is the responsibility. Not Ramsay. Some want to lead, but don't care for the responsibility of their errors. Jon is different.

I believe Stannis will get rid of Roose (rather Ramsay will do it for him). But Ramsay will escape and could still be a nuisance long in ADOS.

I don't think Jon will kill him. It should be Theon. Or maybe Aria with her fake's face. Sometimes villains are killed by the one they hurt the more. Like Tywin and Tyrion. Most villains are yet to die. One could say Ramsay is the monster he is because Roose didn't care for him.

There are plenty of bad plans. I agree with most of what is said in this thread.

But the are plans with some logic or good intent, but which go wrong. And there are stupid plans from the start.

For the later, and for her whole contribution, I would name Cersei: Rearming the Faith, Denying the Iron Bank, Framing Margaery and aggravating the Tyrells, Cuckolding Robert, Doing everything to have Maggy's prophecy to happen, that is risking her chlidren.

Many and most of Freys will die. But at some point it will not matter if it is by LSH, the Brotherhood, the riverlanders, the Others, the Cold or Hunger. Some are good people, innocent of the RW. Some may even become heroes of the Long Night. The Frey people are not that much different from everyone else.No one has to pay for those bearing the same name.

The Red Priests are talking of Azor Ahai, the champion of their Firery God. Dany could be that... Quite possibly.

A CotF, probably the Ghost of High Heart, told Jaehaerys about the Prince that Was Promised. Bloodraven himself said he was watching the Starks. Possibly not just for Bran. Possibly, the Ghost and Bloodraven, had something to do with Rhaegar and Lyanna and Jon. R'hllor, by Melisandre, seems also to be seeking for Jon.

I don't think the Red Priests (R'hllor) and the CotF (Old Gods) are on the same team. Certainly different religions. Jon could either choose the Old Gods (Ice?) by his mother's side. Or Fire (R'hllor?) by his father's. Dany has only one choice. IMO, the Song of Ice and Fire is who will win Jon or Dany. Who will make them their champion in the war to come. And if Jon or Dany can avoid mankind's total destruction.

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

I suppose one has to admire their honesty in a way.  They plainly didn't have a clue. 

Here a link to the audio. The words are not all D&D's... Will have to find what they exactly said about fantasy elements and understanding the books.

GOT panel at Austin Film Festival

ETA:
About removing as many fantasy elements as possible: 28:10
About sitting down and try to boil the elements of the books: 48:30

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

After reading about D & D at the Austin Film Festival, I'd now say "Not a lot".  I think that TWOW and ADOS will only bear the vaguest relation to Seasons 6 to 8.

Yes, after comments like: (Needle & Pen (@ForArya)

Quote

Dan wanted to remove as many fantasy elements as possible bc “we didn’t just want to appeal to that type of fan.” They wanted to expand the fan base to people beyond the fantasy fan base to “mothers, NFL players”...

Or:

Quote

We didn’t understand the characters. We also didn’t understand dialogue, pacing, world-building, basic fantasy and also GRRM’s books.

Or:

Quote

Did you really sit down and try to boil the elements of the books down? Did you really try to understand it’s major elements.

No. We didn’t. The scope was too big. It was about the scenes we were trying to depict and the show was about power.

All the Long Night stuff was making no sense. And little elsewhere.

12 hours ago, Lord Invictus said:

the plan to gain control of a dragon will fail, perhaps because Victarion will forge his own path

Totally wild guess to determine what will happen. But Moqorro fears Euron most.

Quote

"Only their shadows," Moqorro said. "One most of all. A tall and twisted thing with one black eye and ten long arms, sailing on a sea of blood."

I would guess Moqorro will play Victarion against Euron. Victarion who would have Daenerys and the dragons for himself. Daenerys no way, but the dragons... When Daenerys will come to Westeros, she will have no one for help. No choice but Euron. If she dares it.

If Moqorro misses Daenerys, as is likely, his intervention with Victarion will work against him. As it did for Illrio and fAegon. Pushing Daenerys to Euron.

On 10/30/2019 at 10:38 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

I can buy it (I dont really care that much). So what do you think that vision predicts then?

I believe Euron is a serious player. His brothers Balon, Victarion, Aeron even Theon and Asha are total losers. In a deceiving manner, Euron is their complete opposite. Maybe he was a loser too. But in his travels he found something.

Aeron visions are, I suppose, what could happen. Delirious, distorted, but meaningful. Euron plans for a new god. Not the Great Other, not R'hllor, but himself (or maybe what power has taken hold of him). Sure, it will fail. But I believe it will be close. Some have petty goals, getting a castle, becoming lord paramount of the Trident. The most ambitious, getting the Iron Throne. Euron doesn't stop there.

He is using priests to somehow get access to the power of their gods. R'hllor from the Red priests, the 7 from the septons, the Drowned God from Aeron. Don't know what from the Warlocks. He is always talking of gods. Somehow he wants Daenerys to get other powers, the dragons, maybe this "pale fire", something different of R'hllor Flame and Shadows.  Anyway, Cersei has no value, no magic, for him.

23 hours ago, Lord Invictus said:

Also as an aside, I think sometimes people overhype The Forsaken. It builds up Euron as this unstoppable eldritch dark lord, maybe he is, or is becoming, but to think Euron will have everything go right for him is silly, at least in my opinion.

Of course it will fail at some point. But I believe he means serious business.

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Possibly....but there are quite a few Daenerys/Cersei parallels about fire, so that it could be interchangeable. He may swap out one queen for another? 

The show in particular has evidenced a lot of parallels between Daenerys and Cersei. Including the use of fire and violence, as 2 true daughters of the mad king.

But IMHO, pale is for Daenerys. And the shadow suggests the Shadow Binders and R'hllor, the God of Flame and Shadow. Also more an association with Daenerys.

7 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yes, and the book clues back it up. So the tall pale woman laughing next to Euron in Damphair's shade of the evening trip is probably Cersei.

Pale is for Daenerys, not Cersei.

The Forsaken is the story's game changer IMO.

Looks more Daenerys. As is Euron' plan.

On 9/15/2019 at 9:28 PM, SeanF said:

Master Kraznys had it coming.

But too late for poor Kraznys.
Was not in his rules of commerce. But the others learnt the new rule: betrayal is fair game with Dany.

21 hours ago, SeanF said:

She might be receiving genuine visions from Qaithe.  Dany is so surrounded by magic and the supernatural that it's impossible to tell what's magic, and what's madness.

Many of her visions already happened. Other could well happen: the cloth dragon, the naked crones...

Her vision of kings with eyes of opal, amethyst, tourmaline and jade is strangely meeting the god emperors of Yi-Ti: Pearl, Jade, Tourmaline, Onyx, Topaz, Opal, Amethyst.

Maybe it's turning her mad. Maybe some level of madness is necessary for the visions. But IMO they generally mean something.