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Seams

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  1. I assume Harrenhal is an allegorical location where the larger Game of Thrones is playing out on a (slightly) smaller scale. It appears that the location seems to have something to do with the Storm King, who is thought to be Melisandre's The Great Other, who stands in contrast to her fire god, R'hllor. We know that the castle was built by the Ironborn, which is intriguingly ironic, since the Ironborn castle at Pyke is crumbling into the ocean. The location on the God's Eye is also important. Here is the first reference to Harrenhal in the World book: Hardhand? @Evolett is spot on to put the hand symbolism at the center of sorting out the Harrenhal symbolism. We know that, at some point post-conquest, there is always an important figure called The King's Hand who runs the seven kingdoms. We see a lot of hands chopped off, burned or maimed in ASOIAF. Harrenhal is compared to a giant hand in the passage cited by Evolett. (Interesting that it is grasping at clouds in Arya's imagination, and Sansa imagines two cloud castles merging in her musing about the sky over the Eyrie.) So what if the point is to take possession of the hand? Or to become the Hand, as Eddard Stark does at the beginning of AGoT? Taking possession of Harrenhal is a way to take charge of the Seven Kingdoms. Taking possession of someone else's finger bones allows you to seem to become that person. Taking possession of Harrenhal allows you to seem to become the king of Westeros, winner of the Game of Thrones. This is why there is a strong association with Bael characters there. But readers know that, through her mother's connection to House Whent, Catelyn Stark's children (or the children of Lysa or Edmure) are the heirs of Harrenhal. This could explain Petyr's obsession with House Tully. And then there's this, from Arya: Arya is taking possession of a new "home." She does so through a "veil," which is probably a connection to The Vale. (The hot tears are probably part of the Alyssa Arryn symbolism, which is strongly associated with Catelyn.) But she might also be Aegon's dragon, Balerion (another Bael character), stirring up a fire at Harrenhal in the blackened tower. Balerion is associated with Arya and Sansa because the old black tom cat at the Red Keep is presumed to be the kitten Balerion that was the pet of Princess Rhaenys before the princess was killed by Amory Lorch. That cat rubbed up against Sansa and was caught by Arya in her water dancer training. The burning letter may represent words, which is wordplay for swords. We know that Aegon's dragon also melted (burned) swords to create the Iron Throne. Arya is becoming the heir (Ghost?) of Harrenhal but also a dragon and Old Nan. Quite a resume.
  2. Thanks, everyone. I read the First Law trilogy after finding it recommended in a similar list geared toward people who love ASOIAF. I thought that was great. Based on this thread, I just ordered the Warlord Chronicles, the Farseer Trilogy and The Dragon's Path from the Dagger and Coin series. I put the Long Price Quartet in my "saved for later" list. All of the descriptions look terrific. I love having a stack of books ready to go!
  3. I am such a fan of your brilliant mind.
  4. I wonder whether we should be looking to this etymology for clues about House Crakehall? The boar symbolism in the books is so rich that it never occurred to me to associate the house with another set of symbols, but House Crakehall briefly ruled the Iron Islands; that might be a signal that a kraken connection is part of their story. Maybe boars and Krakens are like a manticore or griffin or chimera, and GRRM is telling us to look for mythical beasts he has constructed out of seemingly unrelated House sigils or other appearances by animals in the books. This is such a nice passage to re-read. I had not noticed before how strongly this echoes the details of a jousting match. The two-headed horse also makes me think of Jaime, setting off to the Riverlands with his horses Honor and Glory. I wonder whether we are supposed to imagine Jaime jousting with a kraken? I just looked at the context in the lead-up to the river crossing - it is rich and important. Arya and the BwB listen to the Ghost of High Heart. Arya finds out about Wylla and Ashara and Allyria Dayne and their relationships to Jon Snow and Ned Stark and Ser Beric, as well as Edric. Thoros has a vision in the fire at the ruined stable and (oddly) Arya is soon able to escape the BwB, after failing earlier attempts. Did they want to her go, after what Thoros saw in the fire? The Hound grabs Arya as soon as she attempts her escape, however, riding away with her in the endless rain storm until they reach this ferry known as Old King Andahar's two-headed water horse. A lot of the imagery and detail matches up with Tyrion's interval on the Shy Maid or does it? Some of the details might be opposites. If we draw on details from the previous Arya POV, the GoHH is referred to as a "dwarf woman," perhaps creating a parallel to Penny, who will meet up with Tyrion on his next boat. Yandry and Ysilla, on Tyrion's boat, are Rhoynar but connected to Dorne through the Greenblood. Arya has just come away from an introduction to the Dornish Lord of Starfall and some Dayne family history. The Hound presents to the ferry man a paper promising ten thousand gold dragons; Tyrion will soon write notes promising thousands of coins to the men of the Second Sons. I wonder whether Arya and Tyrion are on reverse versions of the same journey? Arya leaves the GoHH and Thoros and then experiences a boating mishap with a fallen tree; Tyrion experiences a boating mishap with the stone men and will soon meet Ser Jorah as well as the Widow of the Waterfront and Penny. An oarsman falls off of the ferry Arya is riding; a stone man falls onto Tyrion's boat. The Thoros and Ser Jorah parallel bring us back to the kraken. I think of Thoros and Ser Jorah as sharing a link because the two of them were the first over the wall at Pyke when King Robert put down the Greyjoy Rebellion. Thoros and Ser Jorah may have special powers to cross borders or they may just have a special power absorbed from their entry into Pyke. Kraken power?
  5. I suspect it's a life kiss, with a connection to Ser Clarence Crabb and his woods witch wife: Most readers assume that Thoros has a magical power that even he does not understand, and that Dany randomly hit on the right formula for hatching dragons. I suspect that each of these magical people was able to accomplish their amazing resurrections because they were in the presence of others who held some of the power. Thoros did not have the power to keep Beric alive unless he was in the presence of people such as Lem - maybe of the whole BwB. Dany did not have the power to hatch her eggs except that Ser Jorah was nearby - maybe the Hightowers knew that House Mormont or Ser Jorah had this power, which is why they sent their lovely daughter to try to neutralize Ser Jorah's juju. Joffrey says he is going to force Sansa to kiss Robb Stark's severed head. At Joffrey's wedding feast, Tyrion becomes preoccupied with his desire to get a kiss from Sansa. Instead, Joffrey is handed Ser Ilyn's sword with the death's head pommel. I suspect this sword is part of what causes Joffrey's death, but I always wondered why Margaery wasn't affected. Maybe it's because her touch on the sword is what brings it to life - she is the woods witch. I think this all goes to the magic of gaining the power of the enemy you killed. Rattleshirt wears a giant's skull as a helmet. House Martell eats desert from sugar skulls after Ser Gregor's head is delivered to them. Of course, Sansa believes (falsely) that she has kissed Sandor. She has actually kissed Ser Dontos Hollard. My bet is that Ser Dontos will be "resurrected" as a result of this kiss. Maybe he will end up saving The Hound at some point. So Lonmouth had been loyal to Rhaegar and, if my literary deep dive is correct, allowed Rhaegar to suck up the power of his vanquished foes. When Lonmouth/Lem switched to the BwB, created by Ned but loyal to the dead Robert, his loyalty was in flux - he supports Ser Beric (who I think is a symbolic Storm King) and then Lady Stoneheart. But we know that Gendry is in the wings and gaining power among the BwB. Maybe the evolution of the BwB will show Lonmouth/Lem becoming a loyalist to Gendry, restoring some of the balance of power that existed during Robert's reign. Interesting to note that Lem is the one who wears The Hound's helmet, last time it was shown to readers. Maybe he has "resurrected" The Hound just by using his helmet - kissing his skull. Robert chose The Hound as the winner of the Hand's Tourney, and we know that tourneys foreshadow the succession of "kings."
  6. 1. The Miasma Theory. There's a lot to this but, essentially, the white walkers are a disease and Jon Snow is the physician who will devise a cure. (If the link doesn't work, google "Last Hearth Miasma" to find the well-reasoned and researched explanation.) 2. Septa Mordane is Ashara (and possibly Lyanna, as well) and she is Jon Snow's mother. There is a reason her head is on the wall at the Red Keep next to Ned's head. (I.e., she is important.) 3. Shae is Tywin's daughter. Tyrion's love affair with half-sister Shae is a parallel to Jaime's love affair with Cersei. Tyrion strangling Shae foreshadows the death of Cersei. 4. We are preoccupied with the struggle for the Iron Throne, but there is a reason the book is called The Game of Thrones: there is more than one throne in play and more than one king battling to be part of the next generation of rulers. I suspect we are looking for seven kings (although the War of the Ninepenny Kings might also be a model) and this is the real reason there are seven kingdoms. (I believe GRRM may use the term "king" loosely to include Queens, Hands of the King, regents, King-Queen combos, etc.) 5. Penny is Tyrion's woods witch "wife," with Tyrion in the role of Ser Clarence Crabb / Odysseus. 6. Jon Snow and Bran are playing out a Gendel and Gorne story. And/or a Bael the Bard story. 7. Littlefinger is a hidden Blackfyre / Targaryen. He is playing the role of kingmaker. There are others but this is probably enough for now.
  7. I think you have to look at him in the context of the group of individuals that come together in the Brotherhood Without Banners, and consider the role of the BWB against the Bloody Mummers / Brave Companions as well as Gregor Clegane's band of Lannister loyalists. I'm thinking on a literary analysis level, of course, trying to sort out the symbolism. The BwB is loyal to Robert and they were sent on their mission by Ned, who was Hand of the King while Robert was out hunting / getting killed by a boar. Ser Gregor is loyal to Tywin Lannister, the previous Hand of the King. Iirc, one of the groups (Gregor) is pillaging the Riverlands as a punishment (supposedly) for Catelyn capturing Tyrion. The other group is supposed to stop the rampage and restore peace to the Riverlands. The interesting details about Ser Gregor and Lem is that one was knighted by Rhaegar (I am not certain, but I believe that Ser Gregor was the only person knighted by Rhaegar. At least, the only one GRRM has told us about.) Lem was Rhaegar's squire, and that usually means that a person is working his way up to being a knight. So there is an interesting possibility around a symbolic line of succession. Maybe Lem is supposed to mature into someone who will displace Gregor? If both are acting as appointees of Rhaegar, what does that mean in symbolic terms? At the battle of the Green Fork, we hear the rarely-heard voice of Ser Gregor. He gives Tyrion his orders: Ostensibly, the order is about beating Robb Stark's army. But everything has a deeper meaning in ASOIAF and I think this battle scene is extremely meaningful. Since the BwB is supposed to get Clegane out of the Riverlands, if Lem Lemoncloak is supposed to a be a literary foil for Ser Gregor, his role becomes very significant. We are introduced to Lem at a moment when he and Anguy (a winner in the Hand's Tourney) team up to catch a duck for food. Lem wades into the river to recover the bird's body. He wants to serve it with lemon but there are no lemons. We suspect that ducks are connected back to the Targaryens because of Ser Rolly Duckfield in Young Griff's entourage (and possibly wordplay on Dunk in the Dunk & Egg stories). The lemon symbolism ties in with both Sansa who loves lemoncakes and Dany, who longs for a lemon tree. My guess would be that this is a turning point in the ongoing "Hold the river" battle that appeared to have been concluded at the battle of the Green Fork. The BwB at that point is headquartered at the inn at the crossroads (iirc), a major location for the clash between Catelyn and Tyrion and an interesting symbolic location in relationship to the river, which used to flow right past the inn but has shifted course and is now a number of yards away from the inn. Hmm. A new thought about the duck symbolism. We know that GRRM has used a number of children's games as metaphors throughout the books - part of the "Game" of thrones motif. There is a children's game in the U.S. called "Duck, Duck, Goose," involving a group of children sitting in a circle. One child walks around the perimeter of the circle and touches the head of each child, saying, "Duck," each time until the walking child picks one child and touches that child's head, saying, "Goose!" The child who is the "Goose" has to stand up and chase the walking child around the circle. If the walking child gets to the opening in the circle (vacated by the Goose) and sits down in it, the Goose child becomes the new walking child and goes around the circle to pick the new goose. If this is the basis for the duck symbolism, we should be looking at it in juxtaposition with goose symbolism. Which would probably bring us to Brienne at the Stinking Goose winesink just before she begins her quest to Crackclaw Point. [Note: I always get details wrong when I fail to fact check my recollections. I will make corrections if people can point out where my memory has gone astray.]
  8. A series of tapestries showing the "Lion Laying Down With ..." a range of other animals: fawns, kittens, lambs, pigs, falcons, krakens, griffins. But the kittens evolve in the series of tapestries, with Ser Pounce eventually turning into a fire-breathing, dragon-size kitty with wings.
  9. Do you think House Whent could be an allusion to Ents? Or Ent wives? There's a recent thread that seems to put together a few pieces in a motif of fertility goddesses in the Riverlands. So it makes sense to me that House Whent might be the traditional home of the ent wives. I am not a Tolkein expert at all, but i recall that ent wives have all gone (or, at least, are never seen "on screen" in Tolkein's books). This fits with the off-screen presence of members of House Whent, including Catelyn's long-gone lady mother. The last Lord of House Whent was Walter and his lady wife, Shella, was also a Whent by birth. Both are now deceased. In the books, two Frey women are from House Whent - one died without children and the other is married to Danwell, the ninth son of Lord Walder Frey, by his Crakehall line. She has had no living children. The fact that the Freys have had no luck "fertilising" their Whent wives seems significant to me, because the Freys are so fertile and because the true heir or Harrenhal would be a strategically important position in the Riverlands and in general. If Catelyn or Edmure's children are the true heirs of House Whent, this could be another clue for us about the fertility goddess in the Riverlands and this could link to the "Ent" earth beings who are near extinction.
  10. Yes. I think you might be right. Instead of coughing up blood, Cersei finds herself with empty coffers. Maybe the significance of Rosby offering to erect a statue of Tywin is that Tywin's "body" is not properly interred if there is a statue on display. This would also imply that his coffer is empty. It also occurs to me that Joffrey's throat is constricting as he is making his "kof" sounds. Robb Stark dies just below the Neck, right? I wonder whether we are supposed to draw another "beheaded" parallel between their deaths, in addition to both dying at wedding feasts.
  11. Ok. So not unprecedented. I guess it's sort of like airlines granting perks to frequent fliers with a lot of miles.
  12. So. Good. I'm going to faint. I should know better than to post before checking the wiki. My bad. The Rosby connection is important, too, because the Frey faction that aligns with the Tullys are the descendants of Bethany Rosby, Lord Walder's fifth wife. Olyvar was Robb's squire and Roslin marries Edmure. The Roslin association brings us back to the fertility and childbirth motif. The fact that these Rosby - Freys are aligned with House Tully (Robb was born at Riverrun and he has Hoster's eyes) may tell us that the symbolic Westeros fertility melon has been awarded to House Tully. The melon head at Joffrey's feast came from Penny or Groat (GRRM is careful to mix up which rider was which in the mummer jousting). But both of these characters have coin names and are brought to the feast by Littlefinger, the Master of Coin. So the melon going to Rosby would tie into Rosby's upcoming role as Master of Coin (after Tyrion). I strongly suspect that the Sealord of Braavos gave dragon eggs to Penny and Groat, so that would tie in the very good catch you made with the dragon eggs in a chest (coffer). Lord Gyles' cough has a "wheezing" cough - although a couple times it is called a racking cough - which may tie in somehow with Weasel and Weese. I just skimmed the references to Lord Rosby or Lord Gyles and there does seem to be a pattern of Rosby coughing into a square of red silk whenever Cersei demands money for something. There are a couple of references to Rosby coughing all the way through Robert's reign and half of Joffrey's. I wonder whether he coughs gold, similar to the way that Tywin could magically shit gold? Cersei says that Rosby does not have her permission to die, but he dies anyway. But the coughing angle is probably also important to Joffrey's death. He makes notable "kof" sounds just before dying. If the Search site can be relied upon, those are the only times GRRM writes out a cough as the onomatopoeia "kof." I have suspected that the "kof" unique to Joffrey was a hint that he is a "faux king," with a lot of -ing words dropping hints about various young king characters in the books - Gendry is associated with thinking, Jon Snow with walking, etc. But maybe the cough wordplay is more clearly connected to the coffer symbolism, as you point out. Maybe this is our hint that Joff will soon be in a coffin. These are excellent examples. Joffrey also said that he wanted to serve Robb Stark's head to Sansa - if he gives her three heads, does that make her a dragon? Ned sends the heads of Night's Watch deserters back to Lord Commander Mormont. Hyle Hunt brings the heads of the three mummers to Randall Tarly after Brienne and Pod kill them at Crackclaw Point. Does this mean that Ser Hyle is a version of Clarence Crabb, and Randall Tarly is a woods witch? Except the heads are being taken from the Whispers, instead of delivered to the Whispers. I'm persuaded by your long-ago analysis of Ned's bones that his head might be in the pile at the statue of King Baelor. He seemed like a fertility guy (flowers for a crown) who was avoiding conceiving direct heirs for some reason. His sisters went around him and had babies anyway. Don't know where I'm going with this line of thinking, except that it seems to tie into the connection between heads and fertility (see planting). The idea of bringing heads back to life does seem consistent with the idea of planting seeds - the seed is planted and a new plant is generated. Maybe a woods witch is just another name for . . . Gardener.
  13. But this is one of those double-meaning situations that GRRM loves: Sweetrobin was told that he could make the little man fly. The reader understands that this means that Tyrion would be pushed out of the Moon Door. But there are so many ways to fly in ASOIAF. It's possible that Sweetrobin confers the power on Tyrion to become a dragon rider. The legend of Ronnel Arryn might tell us that (perhaps as a descendant of the Winged Knight, or as the Falcon King), Ronnel climbed aboard Vhagar and flew with Visenya. I believe this is unprecedented in Westeros history, to have two passengers - especially a non-Targaryen - ride a dragon. So maybe Sweetrobin had a power he could confer As for sending them along the high road, Lysa may have expected Tyrion and Bron to die there as attacks by clans or robbers were likely. So lots of irony in both lines.
  14. Well, my interpretation of some of the fruit / body part system of symbols in the book is that heads are linked to melons. So I would predict that melons will sprout - except wordplay links melons and lemons. So maybe melons will sprout in this world but lemons will sprout under the sea? But the severed head symbolism is also associated with the birth of a baby. (Incidentally, the emergence of the baby's head is called "crowning," I believe. That has to be significant.) The birth and birthing symbolism starts early, with Gared's severed head treated as if a birth has occurred in AGoT Bran I. My reading of the subtext is that Theon has given birth in that scene - but Theon is also a symbolic version of the sword Ice. (I know, this all sounds insane if you haven't seen my earlier posts.) So there is an "Ironborn" situation playing out with the sword giving birth to a severed head. Maybe that's why Pia is happy when Ser Ilyn (the King's Justice) gives her the severed head of Gregor's man. It's as if Ser Ilyn is handing her a baby delivered by his sword. At Joffrey's wedding feast, we also see the dwarf mummer jouster lose his "head," which goes into the lap of Ser Balman Birch, husband of Felyse Stokeworth. The head turns out to be a melon. Landing in the lap seems like childbirth symbolism again. And we all know that the beheading of dwarfs becomes a thing after Cersei offers a reward for Tyrion's head. Bronn, a brown character, eventually kills Ser Balman and becomes the father of the baby of Lollys Stokeworth. The baby is named Tyrion and he was conceived by "half a hundred" small folk who raped Lollys during the Bread Riots. This all comes back to the fertility motif again because House Stokeworth is the bread basket for King's Landing and the Bread Riots are about food shortages. I suspect the rape of Lollys is symbolic of crops being sown. Yet another layer of meaning probably comes from the Bracken / Blackwood duality which is one of the symbolic pairs of opposites that GRRM has used throughout the books. Some time ago, I figured out that there is probably wordplay on bitter, as in Bittersteel (the Great Bastard son of House Bracken), and Biter, the scary guy who is released from the dungeon of the Red Keep. But the scene where Biter eats part of Brienne's face pretty strongly links biting and being cut by a sword. What if biting is also linked to the harvest, with the blade of a scythe "biting" the harvested wheat? This exploration of the fertility symbolism in this thread gives me a new idea about the paired symbolism of Rorge, the constant companion of Biter. What if the name "Rorge" is wordplay on "grower"? The W is silent, so it drops out for the anagram. "Grower and Biter" seems like a logical pair of opposites - sow and reap, essentially - in GRRM's larger scheme of pairs (fire/ice, bitter/sweet, giant/dwarf, shaggy/sharp, etc.). When Bracken is burying his head in Hildy's mound, maybe the symbolism is that he is biting her mound. In the next book, GRRM may show Hildy engaged in sex that involves giving seed with a green character as her partner. Or maybe Pia fulfilled that fertility function if she and Hildy are a pair representing aspects of the fertility goddess. I skimmed through the wiki entry about Pia before I wrote that previous post. Several of the men who rape her are Frey bannermen. I bet there is Freya / Frey symbolism at work here. This could explain why Lord Walder is so fertile, too - he is part of the fertility symbolism of Freya.
  15. This Brunhilde evidence is a wonderful new line of storytelling to help us sort out what might be in store in the books. @sweetsunray's connections to Freya and to Catelyn / Lady Stoneheart also help quite a lot. As I've written in the forum in other places, I think the fertility theme and the carbon cycle are a major part of the structure on which GRRM has formed these novels. So the Freya piece is particularly important in deciphering Hildy and, I'm just realizing, Pretty Pia. Pia is one of the few remaining servants from the Whent period at Harrenhal. We know that Catelyn's mother was a Whent and there is a good argument that Catelyn's heirs are the rightful lords of Harrenhal. So I think Pia is a symbolic representative of the heirs of Harrenhal. When Arya is at Harrenhal, she sees Pia being sexually abused (raped). In a Jaime POV in AFfC, we learn that Gregor Clegane punched Pia in the face, shattering her teeth. Pia develops a habit of covering her mouth and that seems like an echo of Hildy trying to cover her breasts and "mound." (Mund?) I've mentioned that I suspect Ser Gregor is a major "green character," with varied symbolic situations involving the green associated with the cycle of plant life and crops. It's significant that, when Jaime orders the beheading of one of Gregor's men who intends to rape Pia, Ser Ilyn gives Pia the severed head of that executed man and she is glad to receive it. I think this may be a symbolic seed - not planted through rape but through justice. Of course, Ser Gregor's actual head seems to have been given to House Martell. So I bet we should watch for seeds in both places. Jaime does not want to sleep with Pia but he symbolically sleeps with her when he coaches his bannerman how to be a gentle lover and he listens to the bannerman and Pia having sex in a corner of his tent. Jaime thinks that Pia is probably barren because she has not gotten pregnant through all of her voluntary and involuntary sexual activity, but I bet a groat that she will get pregnant after receiving that severed head from Ser Ilyn and after her loving sexual activity with Jaime's squire, Josmyn Peckledon. I suspect that the sexual union of Pia and Josmyn is the symbolic fulfillment of the union that was intended when Jaime was betrothed to Lysa Tully. Pia represents the Whent / Tully / Riverlands side of the equation and Josmyn is probably a symbolic version of Jaime. But that brings us to Hildy. Instead of having sex with a green character (or one of his men), Hildy is having sex with Lord Bracken, a brown character (as your excellent citations make clear). If Hildy is another aspect of Pia - or the fertility goddess represented by Pia - we may be seeing something about the planting of new crops when she engages with the brown character, after the "harvesting" (beheading) of the green character. Both Hildy and Pia seem to represent possession of the Riverlands. So the symbolic link to House Whent and to Catelyn / Lady Stoneheart / Lysa / House Tully may all tie into this carbon or earth fertility cycle. The seeds Jaime planted in Cersei may not work out as rulers of the Seven Kingdoms, but the symbolic seeds he is planting in the Riverlands may have more success.
  16. I wonder if this was a foreshadowing of the original subplot to have Tyrion banished to the Wall for murdering Joffrey and falling for Arya? That is an interesting set of images. That breakfast of the Lannisters is an important symbolic moment and we know it includes other foreshadowing: Crunch and bacon together would seem to refer to Tyrion's eventual interlude with Penny. ("No change" could also allude to the coin motif linked to Penny, groat, the Gardner coin under the Red Keep, Master of Coin, etc.) My guess would be that Tyrion showing "wolfish" characteristics alludes to the Stark children, who combine wolf (Stark) and fish (Tully) heritage. But the black in his mouth (black beer) might tell us that we are seeing a Black Fish moment, referring to Uncle Brynden Tully. The protestation about how much he loves his family could also be a House Tully allusion ("Family, Duty, Honor" are the house words). The passage you cite follows Tyrion saying that he hopes Bran will recover so they can find out what he has to say and Jaime reacting as if this comment from Tyrion is deliberately intended to get Jaime in trouble. I don't necessarily see that passage as foreshadowing of the original plot; it does seem to me like a foreshadowing of the Lannister and Stark/Tully personal conflict: Jaime really did push Bran out of a window; Catelyn will take Tyrion prisoner because she suspects him of trying to kill Bran; Robb will take Jaime prisoner of war; a Karstark (Stark proxy) will kill a couple of Lannister cousins; Roose will say, "Jaime Lannister sends his regards," when killing Robb; Jaime will try to take the Black Fish prisoner. So far, all we know of the next step is that uncle Brynden seemed to escape the grasp of the Lannisters and Freys by swimming under the portcullis at Riverrun. (I wonder whether Tyrion's mouth is a portcullis in that Winterfell breakfast scene?) A plan to have Tyrion sentenced to take the black at The Wall would fit with a lot of this - there is a motif of justice, imprisonment and killing - including regicide. The death of Joffrey and the attempt to kill Bran are certainly parallel events. Isn't it interesting that GRRM can achieve similar things without pursuing the original plot outline (or so we suspect). Instead of the death of Joffrey, Jaime and Tyrion are both involved in, or implicated in, attempts on Bran's life. Tyrion is taken prisoner in the ice cells at the Eyrie instead of going to the Wall. Jaime is a kingslayer, we learn, but we don't suspect him of slaying Joffrey. (I do suspect Ser Ilyn Payne of having a role in Joffrey's death, and he becomes the sparring partner who trains Jaime's new sword hand after Jaime's kingslayer hand is amputated.) That breakfast scene is one that is worth re-reading closely.
  17. It's possible. But I would question the assumption that the Dothraki are the most obvious connection to horses. Ned, Arya and Jon are supposed to have horse faces. Lyanna also. And uncle Brandon and Lyanna were "half horse," according to Barbrey Dustin. The sigil of her family (Ryswell) is a horse head and she gives horses to people. So you could build a case that these horse-like or horse-connected people are part of the equation. We would also need to determine whether the stable boys are aspects of the horse symbolism, or in opposition to it: do they somehow confine horses, or do they nurture and empower horses. At some point, I think this forum discussed the pattern of major characters ingesting horse flesh at turning points in their stories: the direwolf Summer eats horse flesh just before Bran emerges from the Winterfell crypt; Jon Snow eats oats with horse blood before Qhorin takes him through the mountain tunnel; Dany eats the horse heart to impress the Dosh Khaleen. Or there could be wordplay at work in the stable boy code: "Where do whores go?" could be wordplay on "horse." There could be rhyming wordplay on stable and table. We know that tables are important: look at Moon Boy and Butterbumps climbing onto tables and Tyrion going under a table at Joffrey's wedding feast; or look at Stannis at the table map of Westeros; Jaime at the shield-shaped table in the White Sword Tower; etc. But the name Bael is super important in ASOIAF and GRRM hides it in various characters. We are pretty sure we know that the singer named Abel is really Mance Rayder. The alias helps us to understand that he is acting in a Bael capacity at Winterfell. Prince Baelor of the Dunk & Egg era and Petyr Baelish are probably also part of the Bael symbolism. But then there are characters such as Alebelly (a guard assigned to Bran) and possible Bella, one of Robert's daughters, as well as numerous others with hidden Bael possibilities. Could the "stable boy" characters be part of the Bael motif? If "stable" and "table" are part of the Bael motif, do they also relate to "sable" fur that is worn by key characters? And this doesn't even begin to examine other wordplay possibilities for "stable boy" as an anagram. Now that I've written this, I think I'd lean toward the Bael possibility. A stable boy leers at Sansa's maturing female form but Arya's first kill is a stable boy. Neither Stark sister has a positive association with stable boys, if these two momentary contacts are any indication. But their interactions are very different, and that seems consistent with the complexity of the Bael the Bard legend; perhaps even indicative of the different endings in the tale as it is told beyond the wall or south of the wall. Sometimes you kill a stable boy; sometimes you get a new dress that better covers your cleavage.
  18. Was Catelyn "drowned" after releasing the Kingslayer? And therefore immune to drowning (like followers of the drowned god)? There's a cliche line from movies that goes, "He sleeps with the fishes," to indirectly convey that a person or body has been dropped into the sea. Here we see that Catelyn has been ordered to sleep with the fishes: Another death for Catelyn will come at the bedding for her brother, Edmure. Perhaps Catelyn was already dead, because of this earlier symbolic drowning. (She also saw herself drowning in the green of Renly's shiny enamel armor, I believe.) And we know that what's dead can never die. I wonder about the significance of the "Ser Robin" name here, as well. Jon Arryn raised Ned and Robert, with the latter becoming king. "Robin" is the nickname of Jon's son: perhaps it is not a coincidence that this person sent to retrieve Jaime (the Kingslayer) is also named Robin. Maybe the Arryns play an important role as kingmakers in Westeros. An historic Lord Arryn was the first lord to bend the knee to the arriving Targaryens, iirc. Robert Baratheon's parents drowned, allowing him to become Lord of Storm's End. Does Catelyn "drowning" clear the way for her children (or another heir) to move up in the succession for ... Riverrun?
  19. @Stormy4400 The topic of Marillion's song for Sansa is an excellent one, and I can't remember another thread discussing it, so nice catch. The excerpts you helpfully provided seem to cluster around a theme of death or disuse, in my opinion. I don't see the "side road" motif that you suggest although I could be persuaded with more evidence. What comes across to me is the sense that a person or thing has stepped out of the road (a journey or path is often a literary metaphor for living a life) and become - at least temporarily - removed from the journey. There is still a destination ahead and there is an implication that the person can get back on the path. (In these books, rebirth is a regular occurrence and it can take many forms.) I'm trying out the idea that singers "invent" characters into new roles: a hero becomes a hero because a singer writes a song about him. So Marillion writing a song for Sansa may be a way of telling the reader that Sansa has been off the road (on the roadside) but she is about to rise again (i.e., become a rose). I never know how far to take the anagram thing but I experimented with "roadside rose" to see if there might be a hidden message in the title. The first one that came up is "dead sororise." What the what? This might fit well with other important symbols in the books - "dead" could confirm that something on the roadside has experienced a death of some kind. The "-rise" in the second word could tell us that the dead person or thing will rise. Or maybe the salient bit is "-ise," part of the ice/eyes wordplay that tells us a sword and/or eyes are part of the symbolism. "Soror" is a Greek root word for sister, like "sororities" in college. Is Marillion turning Sansa into Dark Sister? That seems like a good fit for the trained liar and schemer that Littlefinger is educating. Marillion as a smith is an interesting idea. He once possessed the shadow cat cloak that came into Tyrion's possession shortly before he was imprisoned at the Eyrie. When Lysa tries to kill Sansa, Marillion is singing a song about a lady sewing in her garden. Is that an Arya allusion, refering to the sword called Needle? I think Marillion may be a magical version of Tyrion: his name includes the word "lion," he tries to have sex with Sansa (I know Tyrion does not do this, but he is her husband and could if he wanted to), he is badly maimed and he seems to have died or been imprisoned in an ice cell but maybe not because Sweetrobin can still hear him. One of those interesting unexplained situations that GRRM likes to include to keep us guessing or digging into the symbolism. But there are lots of other possibilities for "roadside rose" anagrams, including red door, odor, maybe something to do with the sea or the "dire" of direwolf. Another complete anagram is "adored osiers." An osier is a type of willow tree - Sansa is a parallel for the Willow character at the inn at the crossroads. Marillion is wrong about Sansa being a baseborn girl, of course, so I look at that to see whether GRRM might have buried a clue there about what is going on with this song. "Lion grabber"? Does Sansa bewitch lions in order to grab them? Will she be a grabber at a later point? Hmm. Azor Ahai slayed a lion in an attempt to temper the blade of his sword. But who knows. Robin, barrel, barber - all of these things play a role in the books but it's hard to say whether the author deliberately linked them to this moment in Sansa's arc, or if it is just a coincidence. So thank you for raising an interesting topic. Worth exploring in greater depth, for sure.
  20. Not sure this is what you are looking for, but I like to notice and to imagine what will happen with the original archetypes GRRM has created for his world; how they have/will come into play for characters in the current generation: The Butcher King The Shrouded Lord The Rat Cook milk brothers wet nurses murderous twins (Erryk and Arryk Cargill, for instance) the kingmaker fireball (someone already questioned the purpose of Quentyn Martell's arc, above. I recommend reading up on Quentyn Ball and his "son," Glendon Flowers). The Maiden Made of Light The Titan of Braavos The Sea Lord The Bear and the Maiden Fair (credit to @sweetsunray for teaching me about this one) The Dornishman's Wife mummers cutpurses stable boys millers cooks maimed singers The King's Justice handmaidens Alchemists / Wisdoms fool knights the grieving mother the innkeeper's family hedge knights mystery knights The Weeper vanished uncles children as monsters or abominations Black Pearl of Braavos eunuchs the legitimized bastard Mountain Clans woods witches second sons champions (in trial-by-combat) tourney winners Clarence Crabb people who die in trees people who eat eggs There are many more, of course. And I'm looking at characters, primarily, not at things such as the Iron Throne, the Sea Stone Chair or trebuchets, lanterns, lemon trees, red doors, burning (or otherwise damaged and lost) books, rusted armor, specific foods and sigils. Some strike me as completely original, others are borrowed from literature or pop culture but are used in original ways. For instance, he has said that he was influenced by the novel Ivanhoe, in which a king is disguised as a mystery knight. That doesn't seem like a trope, to me, because it's not a metaphor. It is a literary figure or type, perhaps, that GRRM borrows and makes his own. Some I haven't figured out yet. I'll give you a figurative groat if you can fully explain the function and meaning of stable boys to me. Why did Dunk mistake Egg for a stable boy on their first meeting? Why was Arya's first kill a stable boy? Why does a stable boy leer at Sansa's too-small dress just before she is outfitted for a new one for her surprise wedding? Is Mya Stone a stable boy? Hodor is a stable boy and the catspaw hides in the stable at Winterfell. GRRM has also taken pieces from world history or mythology and done some original things. Instead of one Isis, Osiris and Horus, what if there are several? Instead of a Celtic person being reborn in a person from his own family line, what if a person could be reborn in other ways? Instead of the warrior hero receiving a sword from the Lady of the Lake, what if the hero and the lady are both in the lake (or bath) and both receive swords? I find GRRM's storytelling endlessly fascinating. No shortcomings, as far as I am concerned. I'm glad there are thousands of other readers, critics and viewers who agree with me.
  21. I don't have a specific location or landmark in mind. Just thinking of the return of the Others, the direwolves below the Wall, etc.
  22. Maybe we have stumbled onto an element of the mysterious game called come-into-my-castle. Tyrion tells us that it it a game for high-born children: In a long-ago thread, this forum sorted out that there is a massive game of Chutes and Ladders (Snakes and Ladders) going on in the Red Keep. Maybe having the right high-born child as a ward (or a squire?) is part of the game of come-into-my-castle. At this point, only GRRM knows how the game is played, although he has given us hints. I'm pretty sure that Freys are door-openers. This is why Hodor, who is really named Walder, has to accompany Bran on his journey. We see Hodor opening the door of the Winterfell crypt after the fire and putting Bran and his traveling companions through the transom at the Queen's Crown when they couldn't get the door to open. I'm guessing that Lord Walder's series of wives will tell us which families have attained a sort of borrowed door-opening power by marrying into the Frey family. (His first wife was a Royce, and we see Ser Waymar Royce in the opening scene of AGoT at a moment when a long-closed door has been opened.) Bran sends turnips and beets to the Walder wards. I have concluded that turnips, also known as neeps, symbolize an entrance to the underworld because of the wordplay on "Pennytree = Neep Entry." Bran, perhaps with the help of Rickon and Catelyn, has empowered these particular Walder Freys to guard or control an entrance to the Underworld (probably represented by the Winterfell crypt). But Ned empowered Theon to be a ward / door opener. Or maybe it wasn't Ned: Old Nan may also be a Frey: she is Hodor's grandmother (great grandmother?) and she says "mayhaps" at least once. If she is also a door-opener, Theon may have gained some of his power when he leapt "into" her. We see him flow over the walls when he leads his Ironborn in the takeover, so maybe that is a special power that only he can wield as a former Stark ward. Maybe there is wordplay on "door" and "ward" - or should I say "dawr"?
  23. We learn that Ned's ward, Theon, is leaving Robb in ACoK, Catelyn I: But Catelyn has substituted two wards of her own before Ned's ward is released: John has turned into a ward - a STEWard - in AGoT, Jon VI: Ned's sword is taken away and Arya is suddenly caught in a "wolf trap," perhaps lending credence to the idea of wards and swords as protection: Of course, the wolf trap hand belongs to Yoren, a member of the Night's Watch. I definitely think there's something going on with wards and swords serving as protective seals or shields. When we pin down the timing and the details, it looks as if there are two wards at Winterfell before Theon is released by Robb. The new wards are young Freys, however, and are Catelyn's wards, not Ned's ward.
  24. When I saw the title for your thread, I thought you had abbreviated Rainbow Guard to RBG. (It took a second to see that you had written RGB.) That group includes six colors (there is no indigo guard) and each color seems to have attributes such as flowers, birds, bugs and/or fruit associated with it. This would tend to support Renly's status as a god of flora and fauna or summer king. But Renly has not got a monopoly on red, blue and green symbolism or on other colors. I don't think each color has only a single meaning or function: blue can be a sky color or a sapphire color or the blue fork of the Trident. On the other hand, the blue sigil of House Arryn is associated with a seat (castle) made of marble imported from Tarth. So maybe GRRM is trying to give us hints about a consistent meaning for blue and there may be similar overlapping elements for other colors. Red is a fire color for instance, but why does Melisandre have red eyes and why do weirwoods have red leaves? Combinations of colors may also have meanings. In the Dunk & Egg thread in the re-read forum, I theorized that orange and argent (white or silver) are Targaryen colors - maybe because the orange is a fire color and the "argent" is part of the garnet / Targ wordplay. House Ashford uses these colors in their sigil and I believe this is a sign to readers that a significant Targaryen plot twist will take place at their tourney. What we know of The Trident may help us to solve the red, blue and green clues. Rhaegar was killed by Robert at the Ruby Ford of the Red Fork. Rubies came off of his armor and eventually washed up on the Quiet Isle. Catelyn and Robb died at the Green Fork. Maybe we need to see the Blue Fork in the next books to finally understand why the three forks are associated with these colors.
  25. Moon's turn / Tourney / Bend the knee / the letter J I had started to wonder why GRRM often uses the word "tourney" but rarely "tournament" to describe the contests involving jousting and other mock combat. (Primarily Starks, with an emphasis on Sansa, use the word "tournament.") Then I finally watched the first episode of "Fire and Blood" (because it was available as a free sample online) and noticed that the jousting lists and the camera view are set up in such a way that we can see the mounted knights turn to make another run at their opponent after each pass. I wondered whether there is a deliberate emphasis on the word "turn" in each tourney. This fits with the idea that GRRM uses tourneys as major turning points in the story: Dunk and Egg at Ashford Meadow and at Whitewalls, Rhaegar and Aerys (and Lyanna) at Harrenhal, Renly and Loras and Brienne at Bitter Bridge, Ned and The Hound (and many others) at the Hand's Tourney. We can see the foreshadowing of who will be defeated and who will take away a prize in each match or in the overall contest - some people literally fall from power while others gain in social status due to surprise victories - Ser Jorah, Ser Barristan, Brienne, Glendon Flowers. I find it fascinating that Jaime was appointed to the kingsguard at Harrenhal but then sent away, preventing his participation in the key contests at that turning point. Joffrey receives "groom's gifts" to support a tourney knight but he never gets to use them. Tyrion declines to be Joffrey's champion but later participates in the mummer jousting to keep the sailors amused and discourage them from harming him and Penny and the dog and pig. So some of the symbolism involves who gets to participate at all or their reasons for participating. My wordplay radar tell me that the symbolism of a "tourney" is probably linked to the "bend the knee" phrase (turn knee) that is unique to ASOIAF. Men in the north do not become knights and the free folk are disdainful of northmen who "bend the knee" by pledging to support the Targaryen monarch. Perhaps the underlying literary meaning is that northmen (and others) should stay out of the "game" of thrones that is embodied in each tourney. Staying away from tourneys is Ned Stark's instinct, but he has to acquiesce to King Robert's insistence that there should be a Hand's Tourney with an expensive prize. Catelyn is similarly disdainful of Renly's tourney at Bitter Bridge ("The knights of summer, Catelyn thought." - ACoK, Catelyn III). We know that Bran wanted to be a knight, in spite of the traditions of the north and that he had not heard the story of the little crannogman until Meera tells it to him. Readers are fairly sure that the Knight of the Laughing Tree in Meera's story is a Stark of some kind - certainly the weirwood sigil seems likely to represent a northern House. So Meera is stoking Bran's dream of an honorable and victorious tourney knight from the north in spite of the tradition of Starks and Stark bannermen staying out of the fray. (Get it? Fray / Frey, also a synonym for melee.) Bran is no longer able to bend his knees, of course, so readers will have to stay tuned to see how the tourney / bend the knee symbolism will work for his arc. Perhaps also worth noting: after he leads Brienne to The Whispers, the first thing that happens to Nimble Dick is that his knee is smashed by Shagwell's morningstar weapon. No more bending the knee for Dick Crabb. Yet another layer of meaning: I think the turn / tourney symbolism could be part of the larger symbolism of the passage of time and the messed up seasons in Westeros. GRRM has coined the phrase "a moon's turn" to stand in for the word "month". The idea of turning as the passage of time could help us to sort out other clues connected to words such as wind (a strong breeze but also a verb describing what one does to the "spring" of a clock to keep it running), hands (hour and minute hands), the Night's Watch and the City Watch, Dawn, the Morningstar, rise and set, and the flow of a river (a traditional expression for the passage of time). I even wonder whether the name "Tommen" is supposed to be wordplay on "moment," another word associated with the passage of time. We have heard Theon described as a turn cloak and we see other people and things turning (or refusing to turn) at key moments in the story. I explored "whirled" and "world" as a wordplay pair a while ago, iirc. These words also tie the idea of turning to the passage of time (the rotation of the earth). A search on the word "whirled" can also show the significant moments when characters whirl or encounter whirling. (I think there is also a pun on "whirled peas" and "world peace," with pea soup and hummus / humus as major symbolic elements.) Finally, I think this set of symbols may relate to the letter J, particularly in relation to the names of key characters. "Jousting" starts with the letter J but the letter itself is shaped to make a turn - a change of direction. Someone pointed out long ago in this forum that Jon and Joff could somehow represent "on" and "off" - like flipping a switch to get one or the other but never both at the same time. Jojen has two letters J, which might explain why he has magical visions - he can look in two directions or "see" in both light and dark. Joanna Lannister, Janos Slynt, Jorah and Jeor Mormont, Jon Arryn. I think these are all key characters with some special powers that brought about turning points in the story.
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