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Ras1983

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  1. Ras1983

    Why S8 feels wierd.

    I've been reading a bit about Dramatica and its theory of story telling and it has opened up my eyes to things that authors and writers take into account when writing a 'complete' story. One of these things is the 'story mind', which basically describes how a rational and logical human mind would resolve the various problems being presented by a story. I'm far from being an expert, but I have some theories on why season 8 was received so poorly. Keeping in mind we still have two books to go and there are a lot differences and unknowns... : NK and his minions had been demonstrated to be very powerful in the show, yet they only made it as far south as Winterfell, and they used illogical tactics e.g. if you're vulnerable to dragonglass, wouldn't you find and utilise some type of armour? And if you're the NK, wouldn't you want to stay far behind the lines to ensure you don't get killed (a tactic used by countless generals and commanders throughout history)? As far as the story was concerned, Jon and Dany had the emotional build up with the NK. But D&D said they "knew" from several seasons ago that "it would be right" for Arya to kill the NK... wait, what?! NK isn't even on Arya's list! Dany lost a child to the NK! Jon has been up north the whole time and has lost countless friends and family in dealing with the white walker threat. Shouldn't either Jon or Dany have done the deed re: defeating the NK? And that's not to mention the buildup between Bran and the NK... all for nothing apparently. Speaking of Bran and the NK, the NK's motive as presented in the show was... well... a let down. The NK wants to end the memory of humanity? And he wants to do it by killing Bran? Doesn't the NK realise that people remember stuff? People write stuff down? Wouldn't the Citadel and its records be a better objective for this mission? The NK's mission was woefully chosen by D&D. It would have been far more powerful if the NK had in fact been seeking revenge against the CotF for making him lose his humanity. Then you'd be conflicted as a viewer because a revelation like that would effectively justify the NK's quest. Arya and Jamie had an emotional buildup with Cersei. The Lannisters took everything from Arya, while Jamie eventually redeemed himself by effectively abandoning Cersei when he saw how crazy and selfish she was. So wouldn't it have been believable if Arya used her ninja skills to sneak her way to Cersei and finish the deed during the battle for KL, all while reciting her list under her breath? (by the way, I think Jamie should have stayed up north with Brienne - his arc was effectively resolved up north). As far as Dany burning KL, I think that's largely because some key book characters are missing from the show, such as Young Griff. Given D&D didn't tell Amelia what Dany's ending would be from early on, and given that Dany was painted as a hero on the show, it wasn't very believable that Dany would go nuts after the battle of KL, because Cersie, Euron and co didn't seem like they could cause that kind of reaction from Dany. However, a Targ imposter who has usurped Dany's self-perceived right to the throne and an adoring public who perhaps readily accepted Young Griff as their rightful ruler could believably result in Dany losing the plot. Especially if it were made clear that the KL populace viewed Griff as the hero and Dany as the villain. There is a lot more, but I think that's enough for now. TL;DR:
  2. Ras1983

    [Spoilers] Episode 803 Discussion

    Bro, your points have too much story-telling logic to make it into D&D's sphere of thinking. The problem is they are good at adapting (which is why the first 5 seasons were good) but terrible at writing (running out of source material was a big problem). The pathetic way the NK's arc was resolved has to surely go down in story telling history as one of the worst plot endings. Hopefully GRRM has something better planned in the books.
  3. Ras1983

    Mourning Dany

    Dany reneged on the deal when buying the Unsullied and ended up burning the salesperson. That does not sound like a deeply moral person. If anything, as a young girl and then a young woman, Dany was confused about how to go about her business. The blog makes it clear she eventually decided her dragon nature is the way to deal with things. That choice, combined with the loss of just about everything she held dear, culminated in her choice to commit war crimes. Very believable for her story arc and a fitting end to what is a tragic character.
  4. Ras1983

    Unpopular opinion

    Frankly, I thought the resolution of the Night King's arc was a far bigger crime against storytelling than Dany's downfall, which was both believable and predictable based on GRRM's dark storytelling and Dany's constant battles with the demons in her head. I don't know why people can't see Dany has been heading towards this moment in the books and in the show. She lost everything in her pursuit of 'her throne' and has just gained absolute power. It would take a very strong person not to give into the bloodlust following that epic one-sided win. The more I think about it, the more I think GRRM has intentionally written Dany as a lesson in the dangers of self-righteous justification of one's actions - especially when you have a position of absolute power (let's remember the dragons are the equivalent of WMDs).
  5. Sorry mate, the writers have shown they don't care about the careful setup of theories and possibilities of the books. So yeah, that's probably all that Bran will be used for. As for the OP, wishful thinking my friend. The show isn't smart enough to do anything like that with Bran and Dany. Dany did the deed on her own - come to terms with it and move on :-)
  6. Ras1983

    [Spoilers] Episode 805 Discussion

    To the people still struggling to come to terms with Dany and Grey Worm's actions, watch this documentary about the My Lai massacre in Vietnam: A lot of what is in that documentary can be applied to the actions of Dany, Grey Worm and their army. Years of pent up frustration and setbacks finally come gushing out during the battle for King's Landing in the worst way imaginable. Bloodlust is a real thing. Ample evidence provided by soldiers from many wars demonstrates that the impulse to kill and seek revenge is very difficult to control without good and strong leadership. The Jocko podcast has a great episode on this topic: Dany and Grey Worm's actions are disgusting and reprehensible but are completely believable. Dany ultimately proved herself to be an effective conquerer but a pathetic leader, as did Grey Worm. For his part, credit is due to John Snow for at least trying to stop the carnage after it started but, as others have said, he is at least complicit based on his suspicions of what Dany could be like.
  7. Look at it from her perspective. She's been chasing the Iron Throne her whole life when all wanted to do was 'go home'. This pursuit cost her her family lineage and kingdom, her brotber, her husband and baby, her fertility, she's been betrayed countless times, has had assassination attempts on her life, lost two of her precious dragons, can't love men she likes, and she's been shunned by many of the people in the country she believed was her. So, Dany getting bloodlust at the end of the battle was cathartic for her on so many levels and was believable. It might seem they she has been successful since her dragons hatched, but the whole journey cost her too much in the end. It looks like she finally gave in to the rage. This behaviour is not defensible, but is understandable given her arc.
  8. Ras1983

    [Spoilers] Episode 805 Discussion

    BTW, the Dany mad queen theory is old. Here's a thread about it on these forums from 2011: It's definitely got precedent in the books. So yes, it totally fits in with her character
  9. Ras1983

    [Spoilers] Episode 805 Discussion

    Lots of fair criticism about the writing and the various story arcs like Jaime/Cersi and Arya. But, as per Dany, it's been hinted at from very early on in the books that Dany was going to crash and burn. Perhaps the show rushed her transformation a bit, but bloodlust is a real thing and it would have been cathartic for her to go on a destructive rampage considering what her quest for the throne has cost her. She initially lost her kingdom and family, her home, her brother, Khal Drogo and their son, she was betrayed by Jorah, by the slave masters, etc etc. She lost two of her dragons for crying out loud. So she would have been running on pure emotion and adrenaline like many people would have had they been in her position. One last point: "Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely". That's exactly what happened to Dany when she heard those bells ringing.
  10. Ras1983

    [Spoilers] Episode 803 Discussion

    What could have been... this guy does a great job of rewriting the story to make everything a lot more satisfying!
  11. In the interests of understanding good and bad storytelling, I'd like to ask why you were dissatisfied with the way the Night King's arc ended? So, what exactly was it that disappointed you? I've thought about it for the last couple of days and I've concluded that the main characters involved were short-changed, which created huge disappointment for me. It's like Bran thinking Howland Reed and Ned had defeated Arthur Dayne fairly only to find out that Howland Reed stabbed Arthur in the back. Talk about an anti-climax! I saw a post in a thread joking that this is where the characters got the idea for Arya to ambush the Night King lol. Based on that, I felt the writers handled the following poorly and that led to a lot of missed opportunities: Arya's development was short-changed because her killer sword-fighting skills were not used against the Night King. I just rewatched her sparring session with Brienne and the swordsmanship was great to watch. It would have been far more satisfying if Arya had had a duel with the Night King after she had successfully snuck up on him. This would have let us enjoy seeing her training in both stealth and combat coming to fruition. The Night King didn't get to display his fighting skills as he was effectively stabbed in the back and was defeated far too quickly. For someone who had been preparing for 8,000 years and had an army of undead (including a dragon!) at his disposal, I had really expected him to inflict heavier losses and to take more of Westeros before being defeated. And his stated purpose of wanting to kill the 3ERs and 3EC just felt too underwhelming for his character. Bran's development almost felt wasted. Perhaps his part was to recognise that the stab-in-the-back approach was the best strategy (in addition to seeing R+L=J), but it seems like such a waste of the "Hold the Door" reveal that showed Bran could affect characters while in the past. Overall, it felt like defeating the Night King didn't cost the main characters as much as it should have. In that sense, I felt short-changed as the viewer. I can't help but compare the resolution of the Night King's arc to that of Sauron in LotR. I know people think LotR is too black and white, but the way the story was resolved in the movies was much more satisfying to me because: Frodo actually failed at destroying the ring. I rewatched the scene yesterday and I love it when he turns and basically declares "the ring is mine". Destroying the ring cost Gollum his life, Frodo his peace, Sam his best friend, etc. It cost everyone something. Gandalf et al were being defeated in front of Mordor. You genuinely believed they were going to be killed if not for the ring being destroyed. Sauron felt powerful enough to defeat the protagonists and you knew it cost the heros a lot to defeat the big bad. I didn't get that kind of pay off from The Long Night, which is a shame. What thoughts do you guys have?
  12. Ras1983

    [Spoilers] Episode 803 Discussion

    The biggest problem isn't that Arya killed the Night King, it's that the character of the Night King was under utilised and the resolution to his arc ended up being unfulfilling given the many years of build up. There was a lot of lore that could have been incorporated into the story ahead of him being killed by Arya at a later stage, with the victory having cost the main characters a lot more than it did. For example, they could have had him win the battle of Winterfell and then either move onto KL (if he were totally focussed on destroying humanity) or the Isle of Faces (if he wanted to end his torment and reverse whatever the CotF did to him). Or they could have had the 'green men' from the Isle of Faces show up at some point to help defeat the Night King after half of Westeros had been conquered. Or the battle of Winterfell could have been a feint, with the Night King having sent the bulk of his army to KL. Or the crypts in Winterfell could have been broken open, with the dead Starks going on a murderous rampage. As it stands, years of build up have come to naught. The Night King appears to have been a silly tactician (remember, he had 8000 years to plan for this), Arya's character is going to have the legacy of having killed the Night King cheaply, and the whole White Walker threat ended up not being much of a threat to most of the realm. And finally, the whole idea that the Night King's aim was to remove human memory by eliminating the three eyed beings is just, well, kind of small minded given the many other possibilities that the writers could have chosen.
  13. It's funny you mention that. One of the things that makes LoTR (books and movies) great is the belief that the villains might actually be powerful enough to defeat the heroes. Granted, the undead army in LoTR was deus ex machina. But Frodo's struggle to destroy the ring after the Lich King was defeated really made the audience feel how much Frodo and Sam had to sacrifice to get there in the end. The viewer actually thought that Frodo could repeat Isildur's error and walk out of Mt Doom with his ring, leading to the whole cycle beginning again. The problem with how the Night King was handled in the TV series is, despite the long build up of his powers and how big a threat he is, his army was defeated in a single battle, in a single episode, by a seeming oversight (always have someone watching your back!) and it is a very unfulling resolution to his story. It is not a satisfying resolution to his story. Whether it was Arya that killed him, or Jon, or Dany, the whole idea of someone suddenly sneaking up on him and killing him is a huge anticlimax.
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