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Rhaechyll Targaryen

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  1. Rhaechyll Targaryen

    A+J=T v.9

    Honestly, it feels good that there are some like minded people who are on the same page as AJT because it's not easy to stand against the majority on such a divisive and polarizing theory for so long. For years now I've basically been counting on the show to prove the theory right since it doesn't seem like we're getting the books any time soon, unfortunately. As for the people hating on the Targaryens more than the Starks, incest is another area where it's seen as okay or at least tolerable for the Starks to be 'special' in this regard but not the Targaryens. The world book revealed the examples of uncle/niece marriages and cousin marriage and I suspect this went a long way in keeping the blood "pure" as the Targaryens were inclined to do. (I don't think the same reasoning was behind the decisions for incestuous marriage, but the end result of so-called pure blood is the same.**) Lyanna had wolf blood on both sides just as Rhaegar had the blood of the dragon on both sides so Jon really is ice and fire. The Starks were initially seen as being above being the incestuous creeps that the Targaryens (and Lannisters) are labeled to be, so I laughed out loud at how many minds would be blown by the examples of Starkcest in the world book. Then we got that summary from the early 90s that revealed that Jon/Arya was originally part of the plan. Cue a bunch of theories that more Starkcest will be in future books (and the show) and it's basically seen as okay for them. **I want to note here that it seems like the Targaryens themselves seem to have forgotten the reasons that the Valyrian dragonriding families practiced incest in the first place. The world book gives every indication that some kind of blood magic was used so that the Valyrians were the only ones who were ever able to bond with and control dragons even though multiple non Valyrians had time, access, and motivation to try to become dragonriders themselves. I think the Targaryens probably made mistakes by intermarrying with houses of non-Valyrian blood and this, coupled with keeping the dragons in the dragonpit, likely contributed to the decline of them being dragonlords. This is all in addition of course to the devastation of the Dance. For a long time people put out the idea that the Targaryens were just the hillbillies of the Valyrian Freehold and that they were likely the only ones to practice incest openly and of course not only do we learn that the other dragonriding families were doing it, but that brother/sister unions were thought to be "ideal". With Tyrion, I don't think it's an accident that he's sexually attracted to Cersei in spite of how awful she is. He's made it clear that he's jealous of the relationship Jaime has with her. I'd say most of this is down to Tyrion feeling unloved by everyone save Jaime and maybe the occasional uncle, but I also suspect that part of this is due to that Targaryen trait where some of them are just naturally attracted to their siblings. (Incest in the asoiaf world clearly has very different rules and outcomes than in our world. Not only are beautiful, smart, and capable children born of multiple incestuous unions in this story, but there are multiple examples of siblings inexplicably falling in love and/or being sexually attracted mutually or otherwise, without at all being grossed out at the idea.)
  2. Rhaechyll Targaryen

    A+J=T v.9

    The reason I don't think the series has gone overboard with bastards is because there were so many situations regarding illegitimate children, pretenders, royal bastards, and all the rest of it. Frankly, it's surprising that there aren't more Targaryen and highborn bastards in the story. The idea that two would be overkill when one likely isn't even a bastard hardly seems like overkill. Consider how many real life royal and noble bastards there have been, hidden or otherwise. I think people who say it's overkill are exaggerating and I think this is partly because of the point @LmL brought up about years worth of theory fatigue. I've read theories that Varys, Aurane Waters, Melisandre, and Darkstar are Targaryens and probably several other characters that I'm forgetting. I think it's unfair though to lump AJT with some of the more farfetched secret Targaryen theories considering the evidence that has been presented. It seems like the AJT theory is penalized because most readers didn't start putting it together until the fifth book even though there were suggestive clues in the earlier books. Then the world book came out and that added fuel to the fire, but the people who were already against the theory decided to take the attitude that the world book didn't provide some major support even though I feel that if one looks at the evidence objectively and takes out the element of personal preference, it's clear that this is far from some crackpot theory that fans are clinging to because they want to see Tyrion ride a dragon. I also think there's an element of some people not wanting dragonriding/taming to have anything to do with blood in spite of the mountain of evidence that suggests Valyrian/Targaryen blood is a requirement. It's like people prefer the idea that anyone can ride a dragon and, while that's nice, it doesn't add up at all with the information we've been given. I've also noticed that the Targaryens seem to get a lot of hate for being "special" and Dany in particular, people hate the idea of her having some magic blood. When it comes to the Starks however, people are all on board with them being badasses in every sense including having magic blood. The Starks have wolf blood and they're able to bond with direwolves. How is this any different than Targaryens having the blood of the dragon to bond with their dragons? There's rarely an objection to the Starks being super special in this regard. Brief show comparison regarding the difference in perception of Sansa and Dany: I think it's a similar attitude for why people are fine and even excited for RLJ but are generally dismissive and scathing for AJT. With AJT vs RLJ, I can't help but suspect that AJT is also hated because it involves a Lannister and a Targaryen. The Starks are the favorites so people are more interested in seeing them win. Jon being a secret Targaryen doesn't irritate most people because it's okay for Starks to be special. (People are fine with an eleven year old badass assassin, a nine year old warg who will quickly become more powerful than Bloodraven, a fourteen/fifteen year old kid never losing a battle, a fierce wildling cannibal with a direwolf and unicorns backing him, a thirteen year old being queen and somehow running the show at the Vale, Riverrun, Winterfell, and Casterly Rock (I've seen this suggested multiple times), and of course Jon being the rightful heir to the Iron Throne.) It's when other characters threaten to be special that the pitchforks often start to come out.
  3. Rhaechyll Targaryen

    A+J=T v.9

    That one event made me hopeful but I'll admit that even as an AJT supporter I was hoping for more. All of the emphasis on blood and hair color in this series and people overlook it when it comes to Tyrion for whatever reason. Meanwhile, people look at Sweetrobin's appearance in comparison to and there are loads of people that accept that Jon Arryn isn't Sweetrobin's father. There isn't that much opposition of how this is one secret identity too many or that the evidence (hair color, eye color, relationship between the offspring's parents, etc.) is somehow flimsy. The evidence for AJT is stronger than Littlefinger + Lysa = Sweetrobin but that theory doesn't get nearly as much hate. I happen to believe that Sweetrobin is more than likely Littlefinger's, it's just funny to me how much hate AJT gets in comparison to other theories about parentage and identity.
  4. Rhaechyll Targaryen

    A+J=T v.9

    It isn't all speculation. You are also incorrect about the timeline being more supportive of the idea that Jaime and Cersei are Aerys's than of the timeline supporting AJT. One of the big reveals of the world book is that Joanna was in King's Landing (a place she rarely went after her marriage) in 272 and Tyrion is born in 273. We're given no reason to think that Joanna and Aerys were together before the birth of the twins. It's possible that he made a secret visit to Casterly Rock but that doesn't go in line with Aerys typical behavior IMO nor are there any hints to indicate this happened. I think you're discounting a mountain of evidence. Tyrion's paternity is called into question in his very first chapter in the series. I disagree hugely about Tyrion's hair not having Targaryen traits. What Tyrion's hair doesn't sound like are the Lannisters with the golden curls. Given how much hair color is emphasized in the series when it comes to proving the paternity of the Baratheon bastards, it's strange to me that people want to blow off hair color when it comes to Tyrion. His hair color easily sounds like the hair color of the Targaryens. As for the eyes, Tyrion has mismatched eyes like another notable Targaryen bastard. I also think it's possible that Tyrion's black eye is actually dark purple. Tyrion's "twisted" appearance sounds very much like other Targaryen "monstrosities" that pop up in the world book only Tyrion managed to live. I disagree that the relationship is ruined. I argue that the Tyrion/Tywin relationship only becomes more complex with the AJT reveal. People act like it's a bad thing for Tywin's feelings about Tyrion to have more depth apart from being annoyed that he fathered a dwarf. To me it makes a lot more sense that his hatred is a combination of things. He blames Tyrion for Joanna's death. He feels cursed by the gods that he can't prove that Tyrion isn't his. He wrestles back and for with whether or not it's better if Tyrion is his but is ultimately never satisfied. If Tywin thinks that Tyrion isn't his, he has to acknowledge that the love of his life was either raped or unfaithful. If he acknowledges that Tyrion is his then not only does he think that the gods have cursed him, but there's a part of him that would also blame himself for Joanna's death. For all of the people who are worried that AJT will somehow let a monster like Tywin off of the hook for his treatment of Tyrion, consider what a truly awesome punishment this is for one of the great bad guys in the series. It was tailor made for him and caused him agony every day for the rest of his life. How is that not both emotionally and narratively satisfying? (It also doesn't become okay for Tywin to treat an innocent child like shit no matter who the child's father was.) Lol, I have to address the idea that I must somehow be a fan of Tyrion's who wants him to have everything because that couldn't be further from the truth. It was in thinking that this theory couldn't be true that I felt that I stumbled across evidence for the opposite. When I first read the theory more than five years ago now, I thought 'Whaaaat? No way, that can't be.' Then I realized that every single book is filled with hints. I was sold on the theory based on what GRRM has written, so frankly it's a little obnoxious to me to imply that people who are proponents of the theory must by Tyrion fanboys/fangirls who aren't looking to the text to support their arguments. Honestly have you bothered to read the OP in this thread? We're talking about loads of quotes and analysis from every book in addition to extras like the world book and D&E. What do you consider to be a real hint? We have Tyrion's appearance, we know for a fact that Aerys was sexually interested in Tyrion's mother. (Why would GRRM bother mentioning this? Why not have the woman he was most interested in be a random character? Why do we keep learning more about Aerys interest in Joanna? Why is it that Joanna is always mentioned in some sort of sexual way when it comes to Aerys?) So far we only have characters with Valyrian blood who have dreams about dragons, we have Tyrion's paternity called into question at more than one point, Tywin's uses his last words to tell Tyrion that he isn't his son (the show included this but didn't include Tywin telling Jaime that he wasn't his son), Tyrion's conversation with Jon takes on new layers that make the encounter more special and meaningful, we have the conversation that Tywin has with Tyrion about Casterly Rock that makes a lot more sense if Tywin's real issue is that he knows in his heart that Tyrion isn't his but isn't fully willing to acknowledge this because of all of the baggage that would come with facing the truth. Tywin is very good at shutting out what he doesn't want to see or acknowledge. As to why Tywin allowed Tyrion to live, I feel like there were multiple factors that came into play but one thing I disagree with is what I see as an oversimplification of Tywin's personality that assumes he would have had Tyrion killed if he'd suspected. I don't feel like that's factoring in everything that we know about Tywin especially the importance of his pride and the way he felt about Joanna.
  5. Rhaechyll Targaryen

    [TWoW Spoilers] Aeron I (Balticon)

    This chapter is making me reconsider the theories that Euron might be under the control of the warlocks or may possibly even be one of the warlocks, specifically Pyat Pree. I'm not convinced but now I want to read those theories again. I think it's strange that Pyat Pree is repeatedly saying his own name. (Or it's another warlock saying Pree's name.) This made me wonder if the legless warlock might actually be Euron and he's saying Pree's name because the warlock is the one to blame. Or maybe he's trying to point out that "Euron" is in fact Pree. Euron seems more addicted to Shade of the Evening than ever and doesn't he start using it right after he captures these guys? I'm also thinking about the dwarf references. These are the kind of dwarves that were serving the warlocks in the House of the Undying and now it seems like these same kinds of dwarves will soon be serving Euron. Also, how his focus on Dany and her dragons seems to start right after he captures the warlocks. The timing is certainly interesting. I also feel like it's the warlocks who are likely urging him on with taking all of these priests to use for some kind of magic. I'm still unconvinced that Euron ever went to Valyria. He just happens to find a suit of armor that fits him along with a very convenient horn and lives to tell the tale but doesn't want anyone else talking about it? Regarding the Valyrian armor, I too suspect that it's fireproof otherwise why would it be worth a kingdom? Surely it's special and it being fireproof makes the most sense.
  6. Rhaechyll Targaryen

    A+J=T v.9

    Obviously the idea that it wouldn't be good writing to have Tyrion turn out to not be Tywin's biological child is completely subjective. Considering that the hints for AJT are in every book including the world book, I think it would be a complete letdown for there to be no pay off after so much set up. I won't be so arrogant as to call it bad writing, but Tyrion being Tywin's is certainly the most boring outcome in comparison to AJT because it doesn't add anything new to the story. AJT OTOH opens up loads of possibilities not to mention fascinating backstory. In terms of the narrative and what we know of the characters, the AJT theory explains quite a bit and certainly goes in line with what the books have put out there. I feel like it answers so many questions. The timeline revealed in the world book actually makes AJT more likely whereas it pretty much splashed cold water over the idea that Jaime and Cersei could be Aerys's. The world book could have taken the AJT idea off of the table all together but instead it only fanned the flames in a major way. It's very strange to me how people still see Ned as Jon's father even though they know his biological father is likely Rhaegar, but don't extend the same attitude towards Tyrion and Tywin. Nobody ever says that the Jon/Ned relationship is ruined by the idea of RLJ. Ned's paternal relationship with Jon doesn't magically go away just because Ned wasn't his biological father. Ned raised Jon and Jon looks to Ned's example as he would to a father figure and Jon is, unsurprisingly, very much like Ned. How is it any different with Tyrion? Tywin raised Tyrion and was his only parent. Tyrion having a different biological father doesn't make their relationship go away. It's still incredibly complex and only becomes more complex with the reveal. Tyrion being Tywin's biological son doesn't satisfy any of the elements that make AJT make sense as a theory. The connections make less sense and become less interesting especially his relationships with Dany and Jon. These relationships become a lot more special if AJT is true. Tyrion isn't the only character the AJT would end up impacting.
  7. Rhaechyll Targaryen

    A+J=T v.9

    I'm saying that I think Joanna is a character who is considered to be "good" in their world and I think that goodness for them extends to areas like being faithful to one's husband and not being sexually promiscuous (according to the rules of their society) in order for political gain. I don't think there's any doubt that Tommen is sweet and innocent, so I think it's telling that Tywin would use Joanna as a comparison to Tommen especially since he so rarely (I think this is the only time?) speaks of her. I agree that it's possible for a man to love a wife who is cuckolding him but I don't think that man is Tywin Lannister. Not by any stretch of the imagination do I think that he would think of her so fondly if she were a mistress to a man that he grew to despise. And a public mistress at that. I absolutely think that it would sour the memory for him. As for the idea that Joanna had an affair with Aerys before Tywin and was faithful after that--I don't think that adds up with what we know of Tywin and Joanna's wedding. Tywin was the happiest he'd ever been in his life if Genna is to be believed. I don't think he'd be that way if he thought that Joanna had recently been mistress to his best friend. It also doesn't square with Aerys's reaction during the bedding. I've said it before, but I think Aerys was acting like a man who was jealous because Tywin was going to have something that he'd never had and would never be able to have. He wanted to have the first night with Joanna and I think it would have been his first night with Joanna. Given that Aerys would make fun of Joanna in court years later, I feel like if Aerys had truly deflowered Joanna and she'd been his willing mistress, he would have rubbed it in Tywin's face in that moment and said something jokingly about how he hopes that Tywin enjoys her as much as he did. Aerys was the kind of man who would get his dig in for sure in my opinion. Barristan says that Aerys was drunk so I disagree that Aerys would have been all that concerned about pushing Tywin too far in terms of making comments. The guy was putting his hands on his one time best friend's wife in front of other people. Since looking is obviously appropriate during a bedding ceremony and some degree of touching is permitted since the bride and groom have to be carried into bed and stripped--what exactly did Aerys do that made Barristan hesitate and so carefully choose his words? This isn't exactly some ceremony where a little bawdy behavior is considered to be inappropriate. I'm guessing it was probably a long and awkward moment where Aerys totally crossed the line with his fingers before somebody finally intervened and said something to make him remember himself. If Joanna had been Aerys mistress I don't think that Barristan would have phrased it as Aerys "wanting" her. Why wouldn't it be something simple like 'Your father was in love with his mistress but she married another man...' There's also the world book telling us that Aerys lost interest in his mistresses very quickly. Joanna seems to be his one obsession and my guess is because she's the one who got away. I'm convinced that the only way AJT makes any sense is if Joanna was raped. It explains so much. Regarding Tyrion's "station" according to Tywin--I agree, from the AJT perspective it seems clear to me that he's referring to Tyrion's bastard status. Tyrion isn't being treated like the second son of a great nobleman who is arguably the most powerful man in the kingdoms. He's being treated like the bastard that Tywin thinks he is but can't acknowledge because he doesn't want any more shame brought down on House Lannister.
  8. Rhaechyll Targaryen

    A+J=T v.9

    I just read Tyrion's first chapter in ASoS and a couple things jumped out at me. The first moment is when Tyrion runs into Addam Marbrand on the way to see his father. Marbrand has just become the commander of the City Watch and one of the things Tywin has tasked him with is finding Tyrek Lannister. Bronn seems amused that such efforts are being made to find Tyrek and comments that the kid is likely dead. Bronn says that Jacelyn Bywater and Varys did what they could to find Tyrek and nothing turned up. This is Marbrand's comment: It isn't that this comment is especially revealing but I think it's worth noting when I consider the discussions of Tywin when it comes to blood, pride, kinslaying, family loyalty, etc. I also think that GRRM wanted this comment to be fresh in our minds when reading the upcoming scene with Tyrion and Tywin that talks about the importance of blood ties and family. We next have the quote where Tywin compares Tyrion with Aerys when he says that they're both the kind of men who required applause. That quote has already been covered here but I mention it because I feel like this chapter in particular has comments to indicate that AJT is something that was planned from the very beginning. Next, we get to the big moment where Tyrion asks his father why he would deny him Casterly Rock when Casterly Rock should be his by rights. This is what Tyrion has to say: I wonder if some part of Tywin is extra hard here because Tyrion is talking to him about rights and legality and Tywin knows in his heart (to his eternal frustration) that Tyrion is completely wrong but can't reveal to him why without casting shame upon House Lannister. Tywin replies that Tyrion is *never* going to get Casterly Rock. Tyrion asks why. This quote has been gone over plenty of times but to me, one of the key things here is Tywin saying that Tyrion is "ill-made". I feel like this comment could just as easily be about Tyrion's conception. Ill-made through rape. "To teach me humility"--supposedly humility was what Aerys wanted Tywin to suffer most of all. If nothing else, Tywin is clearly saying right here that he has doubts about Tyrion's paternity. Tyrion is stung but, I get the impression that he has always known on some level that Casterly Rock isn't meant to be his. Some part of him knows that there has always been something off about this situation. I feel like he's acknowledging in his gut that he understands on some subconscious level why Tywin would deny him. He's always known that he was different from the other Lannisters and it isn't just about being a dwarf IMO. The conversation turns to Tywin telling Tyrion that Cersei has informed him that Tyrion made threats against Joffrey and Tommen. Tywin asks Tyrion if he really threatened his own House and his own kin in order to save a whore and Tyrion seems wounded that Tywin thinks that he would ever try to hurt Tommen. He explains that he thinks Tommen is a good boy and says that he's his own blood so he wouldn't want to hurt him. I think it's interesting that Tywin is comparing Tommen and Joanna here. I know there are some people who are convinced that Joanna was some kind of devious slut who was Aerys's mistress for political gain, but I'm not getting that impression at all and this is another line to indicate that Joanna was good and that Tywin did indeed genuinely love her.
  9. Rhaechyll Targaryen

    A+J=T v.9

    I agree that option two is more likely but I still think there's a third option in that Tywin was telling the truth when he says that he didn't mention her at all. In his own words Elia was "nothing" so to me it isn't a stretch that he was more concerned about them making sure that the children were killed. It's morally reprehensible with any of the three options. Regarding your point in bold, now that I'm reading the quotes that Rhaenys has posted (Thanks, Rhaenys!) we see that Tywin trusts Tyrion to lie about Amory Lorch being the one who was responsible. I don't think he thinks that Tyrion would tell anyone about him ordering the rape and murder of Elia because there wouldn't really be any benefit in that for Tyrion. Thanks again for the quotes. His first violent act might have been in 274 but IMO he was already showing signs of being a disturbed and deeply sick person. By 270 he's keeping Rhaella confined in Maegor's holdfast and is insisting that septas share her bed. To me a "normal" person isn't going to take liberties at the bedding ceremony of their best friend. Joanna died in 273 so to me that isn't so long from 274 to think that he was still behaving like the promising guy he was in his early youth. Stuff like the incident with the Iron Bank in 267 is proof to me that this guy already isn't playing with a full deck. Tywin is already dealing with this issue though in the form of Tyrion. If he has it in the back of his mind that Jaime will be able to be released from the Kingsguard one day then Jaime would still come before any subsequent children Tywin might have. Not only that, Tywin could have made a union to a woman who was past childbearing age. Fair enough. I still got the impression that Aerys and Rhaella were dealing with a situation that was similar to what some of their ancestors suffered. I'm fascinated with this entire exchange because I'm convinced that Tywin is being 100% truthful. He didn't have to mention Elia at all. He brings up the fact that it was all done too brutally. I can see him not commenting on her at all because he viewed her as nothing. His choice of words for the second line in bold is interesting. "Even you". It's like he's saying 'Even you [who knows better than anyone what I'm capable of]'. Why does he hope that Tyrion wouldn't think him capable of giving that command? The way he trails off after saying 'The rape...' I'm not getting the impression of a guy who gave that command. Tywin likes nothing more than to teach sharp lessons. If this was all about paying back and insult and a debt then why not tell Tyrion that? 'See, Tyrion? No family in Westeros is ever going to get away with insulting our House.' There's nothing that Tyrion can gain by going around telling people that Tywin gave the order and even if he did, I can't see how that would have hurt Tywin at this point in the story since a lot of people suspect it anyway. I feel like Tywin was giving more details than Tyrion needed to know and that's what made the conversation seem truthful. Plus, he's trusting Tyrion when he's telling him that he plans on lying. To me this all suggests that they were having a truthful conversation and the readers get just the barest hint of Tywin feeling some tiny drop of guilt. The comments about two year old Rhaenys are chilling. Again, Tywin is scumbag no matter what. This all raises a question that I've never considered before. Are there any times when we know for sure that Tywin has lied to Tyrion? I'm not talking about something like where he tells Tyrion that the plan was to have him sent to the Wall (which sounded like total nonsense to me) but a conversation where he straight up lies about the facts. I typically get the impression that Tywin is blunt and truthful with Tyrion and am guessing that this conversation was no exception.
  10. Rhaechyll Targaryen

    A+J=T v.9

    I agree. Another reason I'm convinced it was rape is because Aerys was already sliding into the madness at this point. I also think of how we already know that Aerys was a rapist and that he got aroused by fire and violence and by hurting Rhaella. I'm just having trouble imagining this guy all of a sudden having a consensual encounter with Joanna especially shortly after going out of his way to humiliate her at court with that remark. I agree. To me it adds complexity to see this other side of the monster that is Tywin. I don't think AJT woobifies him or anything like that. It also isn't hard for me to believe that a good woman like Joanna would have loved Tywin. I think of how much Genna and Kevan love their brother and how they seem like reasonably decent people. It just doesn't feel like a stretch to me that there were two sides to Tywin's personality. He always had the ruthless SOB aspect but I think he also had a loving side that died when Joanna did. Gerion and Genna both more or less confirm this. I'm starting to wonder if book readers will get the information before Tyrion does. I've been thinking about the significance of having Barristan as a POV and more and more I'm leaning towards the idea of him knowing about the rape of Joanna. IIRC Barristan always seemed to be away during a lot of the Mad King's acts. My knowledge on the books is shaky here so I'm happy to be corrected but am I right in thinking that Barristan wasn't there for the murders of Brandon and Rickard or for that flashback when Jaime is remembering how he's told by Darry (?) that they can't protect Aerys from raping Rhaella. My thought is, Barristan can't have missed everything, right? (Everything when it comes to personally witnessing the worst of Aerys's evil behavior.) What if this was one of the times where he stood by and felt the way that Jaime later feels when he's told he can't protect Rhaella? I feel like this could be a way for us to get the reveal that wouldn't seem too clunky. I can see Barristan reflecting back on a situation where he's wondering if he properly honored his knightly vows. I agree and will add that there's a revenge element to the humiliation too. I also think that one of the strongest examples of Tywin's love for Joanna is the fact that he never remarried for political gain when he easily could have. My guess is that the tunnel to sneak in women was built after Joanna's death and not before. Also, since I'm on the subject of Tywin using whores, I'm convinced that Marei is one of his bastards. The dates add up since she would have been conceived and born back when he was still Hand and this would have all happened after Joanna's death. It's a small detail and I'm not saying that it's a clue or that it proves anything but I'm not getting the impression that Tywin is the one with the fertility issues. Aerys and Rhaella were the ones producing "monstrosities" and Tyrion's appearance sounds like one of the monstrosities from TWOIAF only he managed to live. Jaime, Cersei, and Marei are all healthy and attractive. I don't know how old Donnel Hill is but he's another bastard that I suspect is Tywin's. It reminds me too of kings in the past who would arrange splendid marriages for their mistresses so that they could keep them at court or would bump up the cuckolded husband's title or position. In this case though I think that Aerys was deluded or willfully blind if he thought Tywin would be open to that sort of relationship. I would love it if somebody could dig up the quote where Tyrion is talking to Tywin and Tywin is admitting that Elia didn't have to die. I know that it's commonly thought that Tywin was lying to Tyrion during this conversation but now I want to reread it because I'm struggling to understand why Tywin would bother to lie. Also, am I wrong in thinking that Tywin seemed almost offended that Tyrion would think that he ordered the rape and murder of Elia or am I completely misremembering this? Why would he care what Tyrion thinks about something like that when he knows that Tyrion knows better than anyone Tywin isn't above ordering rape and murder?
  11. Rhaechyll Targaryen

    A+J=T v.9

    This is how I feel too. Say Joanna really was Aerys's paramour. Why don't more people know this or talk about it? Why don't any of our Lannister POVs ever think about this? I agree that Barristan's wording suggests that Aerys wanted Joanna but the desire was left unfulfilled. I've noticed that people seem to lean towards it having been a consensual affair and I wonder why. Part of me wonders if it goes back to not liking the idea that Tywin has a "reason" for his over the top hatred of Tyrion. Where I've always disagreed though is the idea that AJT means that Tywin somehow gets a pass for treating Tyrion like shit all of his life. I don't think AJT lets Tywin off of the hook for being an asshole. It just adds layers to the complicated father/son dynamic which doesn't go away if Tyrion turns out to not be Tywin's biological child. Tywin is still his father for all intents and purposes and AJT doesn't change that IMO. In the books I feel like there are all sorts of ways that we might find out about AJT. If Tyrion becomes a dragonrider I can see Barristan helping him to put the pieces together. I don't think there's a lack of complexity in Tywin's character that I was describing. Regarding the first point in bold, if Tywin was so deeply in love with Joanna, and by all accounts he was, does it seem likely that the happiest day of his life was the day he married a woman who didn't love him but was actually in love with his best friend? To me it makes more sense that Tywin and Joanna genuinely loved each other and this irritated Aerys no end. It isn't that I can't see Tywin marrying Joanna if she didn't love him. It's how happy he is that suggests to me this was a love match rather than a political union with love on one side. Regarding the second point in bold, I don't think that Aerys objected to the union because I think he initially thought that it would keep Joanna in King's Landing. To the third point in bold, I hugely disagree. I think there's every indication that Aerys was very interested in Joanna at this point. Not only that but I think his feelings/obsession for Joanna remained constant because he's still thinking about her and wanting her years later. She's the only woman Barristan mentions to Dany in terms of a woman that Aerys wanted. I don't think there's any suggestion that Aerys's interest in Joanna was minimal. Regarding the fourth point in bold, I think the distinction is that Tywin would never publicly feast on another man's leavings. I think this is consistent with what we know of his personality. He cares about appearances. If Tywin, Aerys, and Joanna really were this happy threesome in the beginning then why does Joanna live at Casterly Rock for the most part? My guess is that Tywin and Joanna thought it would be better for her to be away from Aerys. If AJT is true and it was rape, that shows they had every reason to not trust the idea of Aerys being around Joanna too much. One thing I am undecided on is whether or not Aerys only implied things to Tywin or if he was more direct about what happened. If he only ever implied it, I can see Tywin going back and forth on whether or not it happened and trying to tell himself that it didn't only to be confronted daily with the fact that it's probably true. If Tywin knows/suspects that Tyrion is a product of rape then it puts an even more disgusting revenge twist on what ended up happening with Tysha.
  12. Rhaechyll Targaryen

    A+J=T v.9

    I'm torn about the paramour line. It's not impossible for me to believe that Aerys and Joanna might have had a consensual affair I just find it to be very, very, very unlikely given what we know of Tywin's personality. We know that one of Tywin's biggest issues is not wanting to be laughed at. I find it difficult to believe that a man as proud as Tywin would be so deeply in love with a woman who was so publicly a mistress to another man. I can see him still marrying her for power and/or political reasons and don't see the virginity as a deal breaker necessarily. It's the fact that he loved her so much that makes me think she probably loved him too and that Aerys was likely jealous of this. When I think of the line about the liberties that Aerys took during the bedding--to me he was acting like a man who hadn't been there before. I get the impression that it drove Aerys nuts that he couldn't have this woman and finally decided to force the issue years later. When I consider Aerys's nature, rather than taking liberties at the bedding, doesn't it seem like he'd be the type to make a joke about how he'd already had sex with Joanna? Instead, I very much get the vibe of a man who's getting drunk and upset because he's being denied the one person he's always wanted. I think that jealousy in general was one of the big issues between Tywin and Aerys. I think Aerys resented that Tywin was a good Hand, I think he hated that Tywin ended up with the woman he wanted, and I think it was too much for him to see Tywin and Joanna with two beautiful looking children, while he and Rhaella continued to struggle after Rhaegar.
  13. Rhaechyll Targaryen

    A+J=T v.9

    I posted about AJT in another thread but am following the suggestion to bring it here since my post was about the books. Here's an abbreviated version of what I said: The second part of the post: To continue a bit more of this line of thought, Tywin doesn't seem to have tried to attempt to go through Rhaegar to seal the deal with Cersei. If the relationship between Rhaegar and Aerys was strained you'd think Tywin I think it's interesting too that Joanna's first choice/thought of a bride for Jaime was Elia and that Aerys was too nervous to attend the wedding out of fear of assassination. Did some part of Aerys think that Dorne was feeling hostile about his reign and did Joanna initially have similar thoughts? Also from the thread: Jo Maltese: Regarding the bit in bold, I think you hit the nail on the head. He was sort of like that one Targaryen king who was producing nothing but monstrosities no matter the woman only his affliction wasn't as as bad as that king's was. The reason I don't think Joanna was a slut is because of how strongly Tywin seems to feel about her. We only hear good things about Joanna. My guess right now is that Myrcella takes after her grandmother and that Joanna was a good and kind woman. I suspect that Rhaella was trying to help Joanna out by dismissing her as opposed to being jealous and threatened by a rival. As far as quotes that have jumped out at me during the reread I've been doing, apart from Jaime's thoughts on killing Aerys, another one I liked that I don't think has been mentioned in the OP are thoughts that Tyrion has at the beginning of the Battle of the Blackwater. As Tyrion is watching the wildfire burning and everything, he starts thinking about Aegon and the Field of Fire and he imagines how Aegon would have felt looking down at the flames and all of the destruction. Isn't it interesting that Tyrion would imagine how it felt to be Aegon rather than imagining how King Loren Lannister must have felt?
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