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Sourjapes

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  1. That doesn't mean she wasn't seen by one at some point. Like I said, it would very irresponsible and self defeating for the Lannisters to kill her with childbirth. They gain nothing from that. And yes, of-course it is always a risk. I wasn't under the impression Westoros had modern medical care. Were you? People in that world take a risk every time they cut their finger or get an infected tooth. Or receive any kind of treatment from a "healer" for that matter. Puberty starts at different ages for different people based on a variety of factors. Fair enough then, that completely changes the context of the marriage from the way I remembered it. Still, if he had consummated the marriage that would have been normal in Westorosi custom since she has bled. If he continued on though after that, then that'd probably be seen in a different light. Good thing then, that Tyrion didn't do that.
  2. Sourjapes

    Board Issues 4

    Is the 'new' version of the forum incompatible with Brave and Fire Fox? Using either I can't break up quotes when I post. I can't send messages either. I don't like this design. I want a preview button and while I'm at it, for what reason is there no option for me to deactivate or delete my account if I want to?
  3. The wiki misleading then. She's very young, but the point stands; if she can safely deliver a child then Tyrion consummating the marriage wouldn't be considered perverse and certainly wouldn't make him a pedophile . Again, as others have pointed out, she has flowered. @kissdbyfire Doesn't work for me but then I can't send messages now either. The "new" forum design probably just isn't compatible with my browser.
  4. The wiki says she was thirteen and thirteen is what I remember. She's going on fourteen in Dance and that's less than a year after the wedding. I don't have the text in front of me.
  5. I refer her being thirteen going on fourteen and you shouldn't speak in absolutes like that. People mature at different rates, especially given different environments. I don't recall if it is stated in the text or not, but I would assume that Sansa was examined by a maester or septa and cleared for child birth. Otherwise this issue would surely have been brought up. Sansa is no good as a political tool if she dies in childbirth giving birth to a dead fetus. The Lannisters have an interest in making sure she's healthy and that Tyrion doesn't kill her by getting her pregnant.
  6. What you stated is wrong. If Sansa was a pre-pubescent child, having not flowered, then it would considered perverse in Westoros. She is flowered and if I'm not mistaken, only about 2 and a half years, or less, from her age of majority. Many doesn't mean most or even half, it just means many. It's a vague statement. I think we can safely assume that most husbands wait until it is safe for their wife to bear children. That would be the logical thing to do.
  7. As I was trying to imply, physical health is the issue here. If she's physically able to (safely) have a child, then consummating the marriage would be entirely normal. A physiological response to this would also be entirely normal. Now, the rest of your post is certainly worth addressing but I'm not going to because I don't know how this new version of the forum works. I do not understand why I can't just view a normal dedicated post window that displays the forum code and gives a preview button. The rest of you are breaking quotes up, so how do you do it?
  8. You are a harsh and unreasonable judge. Tyrion wanted to consummate the marriage at first, but for obvious reasons, which included the discomfort of his young wife, he didn't. Yet still you condemn him for it. Have you yourself never physically or even materialistically wanted something but, since you try to be a good person as best you can, denied yourself that thing? Sometimes I don't feel like playing a game with my brother or watching cartoons with him since neither of those things is very stimulating for me. However I often still do it for his sake. Now obviously I'm not marrying him or sleeping with him, this isn't King's Landing, but you get the point. By wanting Sansa or wanting her to love him he isn't doing wrong. I name you a liar if you deny that you have ever wanted something you shouldn't or enjoyed something you shouldn't. The test is, whether you have the self control and empathy to recognize when you would be crossing the line and stopped yourself. Also, something that has come up before and should be addressed again here: there is nothing abnormal about Tyrion's physical attraction to Sansa. She is far enough into puberty that she can apparently safely bear children. Male physiology has evolved to recognize this. Marriage to young women who have reached the point in their physical development that they can bear children, and the subsequent bearing of those children has been the norm for most of human history and still practiced throughout the world to this day. Even modern day Europe has the age of consent in many countries at 14 or 15, which is not much older than Sansa is. It is absolutely the norm in Tyrion's culture and experience. The biology says it is a fully functional way to do things. Wasn't even that long ago in the West that people were marrying that young and raising families that way. If you think Tyrion is a pedophile then you are using a very liberal and imprecise definition of that term, which is unwise. Have you ever noticed how our culture, even to this day, always shows teenage women as sex objects? Why do so many horror movies center around high school kids? Why do we make musicals or raunchy comedies about them? Why are Ariel in the Little Mermaid, or Snow White, or Cinderella, or Sophie Turner as Sansa Stark in the TV show, presented as desirable or created to be attractive or desirable in their respective stories? The reason is because it works and its instinctual and speaks to our biology and our own experience of puberty and subsequent sexual awakening. ...and no, if Ser Loras was replacing Tyrion and he was also understanding and gentle with her I don't think Sansa would mind as much if at all. In fact, she was quite eager to marry him or even Willas Tyrell. It is a well known fact that people are generally much more forgiving and much more eager to spend time with attractive people as opposed to ugly ones. Even another Lannister would probably be a lot more bearable for Sansa if he was handsome and charming. One thing we can say about Sansa is that she is a, somewhat, shallow person in how she judges others. At least in her first impressions she looks down her nose or assumes the worst about ugly people or people of lower status. Probably a running theme in her story that she meets ugly people, is afraid of or hates them, and then learns they are more complex than she thought and might even be more virtuous than the beautiful devils she is so often tormented by. Ins't it notable that in Sansa's chapter about the wedding night the text says that pity is the death of desire? That implies things. Uncomfortable things.
  9. Overall I really enjoyed parts of Feast and Dance, and I enjoyed Dance more than Feast. I actually really liked Brianne's chapters in Feast because we got more of an "on the ground" or "little people" perspective on the war. It had a lot of nice world building. Cersei's chapters were very entertaining as well. For Dance I think everything in the North really shines as one of the best parts of the overall story. Theon's struggle is very compelling and the building conflict between Stannis and the Boltons is very intense. The ending epilogue chapter was fantastic as well. That said, both books definitely left me a bit disappointed and frustrated over all. The way A Storm of the Swords ended the narrative felt like it had built up a lot of momentum and I was eager to see the story shift into its final act and build towards a satisfying conclusion. So when the story pivots to slow politicking in Dorne and Mereen I was disheartened. I think that GRRM made a serious mistake in his story by choosing this point to further expand the story and draw it out rather than move directly into the final act. The story was big enough already as it was with so many characters I was invested in and then to double or triple the number of characters and storylines just made me feel exhausted. GRRM should have taken his ideas for Dorne and Mereen and saved those for another story. Frankly, at this point I think the story would be fine and certainly more concise if Danaerys was just cut from it entirely.
  10. Only thing Lord Lamprey will free is the mound of flesh behind his belt buckle.
  11. Wylis was a prisoner in Harrenhal. He doesn't know anything. The Greatjon is a prisoner in the Twins and he'll be lucky if he ever gets released. Lyanna knows nothing and her mother is missing. Edmure, is a prisoner and has been declared a traitor. Ditto the Blackfish.
  12. Maybe, Westoros is not the modern world. All that most people have to go by is what they hear by word of mouth and Westoros is also a place with a more rigid hierarchy. Who is to contradict what Roose says? If Lord Bolton says he was spared because he married a Frey and Ser Hosteen says that's a lie, who is the average northerner, who wasn't there, going to believe? The best lies are those with a kernal of truth. Roose did marry a Frey, so it is plausible he'd be spared even if he hadn't been one of the main masterminds of the Red Wedding. The Iron Throne truly didn't have anyone else they could realistically name as the new Lord Paramount. Who would they pick? Maybe Glover or Ryswell, not Manderly though. Bolton is the best choice because he has ties to the South and he has an intact army. Now we all know Roose bought this promotion with blood and treachery... but what I just said is still true. In addition, I pointed out the Iron Throne sending no aid to help with Stannis or the wildlings, and both of those statements are true. Both statements support the implication that the Iron Throne has no love for Roose, which lends credence to the lie that he is innocent of murdering his king and betraying his fellow northmen. The fact that Stannis worships a foreign god and sacrifices people to it is also true... One wonders, if Ramsay wasn't such a brute would Roose have gone this route? Throw the Frey's under the bus and portray Stannis as some foreign lunatic who wants to drag the war weary North into yet another rebellion againt the Iron Throne? It should be an easy sell. After all, even Robett Glover says he could stomach bending the knee to Roose, he says "We've all known worse,", meaning there have been northerners in living memory more hated than he is, but "This bastard of his..." A great portion of the covert rebellion against Roose seems to be because of who will succeed him, rather than the man himself.
  13. Yeah, obviously it's a joke. We all know what happened, but if Roose was a better liar he'd tell people what I told all of you. Letting the Freys write the cover story for the Red Wedding was a really bad move. My post was to illustrate that Roose has some plausible deniability and a good cover story. Not that everyone or anyone would 100% believe it, but I think if he framed things that way they'd at least second guess their own plans to name him a traitor or kill him. Roose is my favorite character, but that's because he's such a great villain. I don't like it when people try to portray him as being weirdly heroic or sympathetic. I respect his skill at playing the game of thrones but he's a very bad man. That said, I'm hoping he'll somehow manage to survive the series.
  14. The Lord of the Dreadfort is no man to jape with.
  15. I don't think Roose would set aside Catelyn. As I said, she is proven fertile and can still have children and he needs an heir. Ramsay is useful, but he hates Ramsay and slowly but surely Ramsay is proving that he is more of a burden than a bane. I suppose it is possible that Roose could still accept some sort of deal to betray Robb and gain the North, but why do so? Catelyn is more valuable if House Tully still rules the Trident and Riverrun. By being married to the mother of the King in the North elder sister of the Lord of the Trident he has a lot of respect and influence. Roose is a practical and self serving man... so I think in the theoretical scenario that he was married to Catelyn that he'd see no great benefit in changing sides. Even if Robb can't hold the Riverlands he will still be of very high standing in Robb's court and his heir will be a half-brother to the King and kin of the royal family. It seems to me like a much safer way to power than the gamble he took with the Red Wedding. In that case his wife was just someone he picked for a dowry (and possibly because her mother was a fertile Crakehall). He needed the fake Arya because as the new Lord Paramount he had legal power but no traditional claim. "Arya" was obviously intended as insurance to make sure his successors had blood claims on the North, which would appease the Northern houses. Well, if not for Ramsay. Of-course, maybe Roose would still betray Robb and then set aside Catelyn after the Blackwater. Anything is possible, but if Robb had lived long enough to get the chance to marry off his father, and Roose Bolton was already married to Walda Frey, I argue that such a match has some political benefits for Winterfell.
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