Deadlines? What Deadlines?

Y'know, I'm getting this funny feeling that coercion is an affirmative defense to perjury.

Hey all! I'm once again here this week to tell you why this episode was again crap, rated PG-13 for mods!

-Dorne is still 1 small city in the intro. Did D&D really go this many episodes without a map?

Not the first time.

-Thorne is first ranger despite never having been a ranger. BRAVO, D&D. I think they just apply ranks to named characters they actually know about without any thought to it.

Jon appoints him first ranger in an earlier episode. In the books, Jon sends him ranging beyond the wall.

-Theon is an awful Reek in this show. He knows he's Theon and just says Reek to not piss Ramsay off. He's not the insane wretch who literally thinks he's Reek and Theon is a separate person. And no, the changes he goes through in the books don't count because at this ep proved he's still at the point he's still loyal to Ramsay. Can we also talk about how shitty the Sansa-Theon dynamic is? Sansa just towers over Theon and orders him around and shakes him angrily. The mutual heartbreak, their bonding in misery, and the general atmosphere of tragedy that loomed over Theon and Jeyne in the books is gone. This feels so hollow as a replacement.

Wrong

-Aemon just sort of dies after 5 minutes with no explanation. How underwhelming . We weren't even aware he was dying last episode. D&D treated this like something they forgot about then suddenly had to go through the motions about. And what he was even wrong with him anyway? WHO KNOWS! Plotitis. Do they really think including a fan-favorite quote would change how bad this was?

Explanation? He's over 100 years old. The physics of this is not complicated.

The oath+testimony might be invalid if done under duress. If he can convince them he lied only because Cersei threatened him, then it's not really "perjury".

Maybe, but the High sparrow and the Faith Militant have demonstrated that they are humorless dicks when it comes to following the rules. Also, homophobia.

That reminds me, the exchange between Olenna and the HS was fantastic.

No, it will, if it happens and she births it, will always be a Bolton. She will always look upon that child as Ramsays. This is not a typical Westeros marriage where there may not be any attraction between lord and lady, wife and husband. This is Sansa Stark who is being raped and beated by Ramsay Snow Bolton, a devil incarnate. It would be another weakness in the plot if she did want to keep such a baby which would make it possible because D&D & Cogaman, are hatched men, especially when it comes to Sansa Stark's TV character.

One way or another, Sansa will not give birth to Ramsey's child.

Just rewatched. Dorne has magical properties apparently. Jaime's gilded hand has fingers twitching all over the place. Seen at least twice. Oops. :)

That's awesome. He should move there.

We can agree to disagree. some wounds would never heal and they are being inflicted upon her every night. I cry for her character.

To be clear, I'm not saying KL "toughened her up" or that she was prepared for Ramsey's brutality. I'm saying that prior to KL, she had little to no concept of the brutality of men or specifically the brutality of men against women. After KL, different story.

This. LF's gift is Olyvar recanting, saying Cersei paid him, threatened him, etc. Neatly paves the way for Loras and Margaery's release while keeping Cersei on track for the WOS and maintaining the HS's moral standards.

So, his gift is to convince Olyvar to admit to perjury after he's seen Marjery locked up for the same offense (at the same hearing)?

That would spring Marg and Loras immediately, but I'd like to see how LF convinces him to do this.

IMO, it made more sense for Ramsay to lock up Jeyne Poole in the books than Sansa in the show: he was worried that the northern lords would recognize her as not being Arya. Even if they already knew deep down that she was not Arya, by keeping her in the room there is less of a chance of it being talked about.

Ramsey is a force of nature, taking pleasure primarily with dominating people through terror. If he was smart, he'd be kissing her feet, not keeping her locked in a room. Power politics is not his strong suit.

The way they set it up in the show, it will be interesting to see how Roose reacts to the treatment of Sansa. In the books, he's somewhat indifferent, but in the books it's the northern lords that bend to him. In the show, he's genuinely worried about them uniting against him. Rumors of Ramsey brutalizing the last daughter of Eddard Stark could see the marriage of political convenience backfire spectacularly.

That scene made me 'think' aswell.

He mentions Jon Snow during their back and forth about bastards. She implies he can't inherit if Walda's child is a boy (that was naughty of her), the Ramsey was legitimize by a bastard himself. Ramsey counters with the brute fact that the bastard of Winterfell is now LC demonstrating bastards can rise very high. I though that was clear.

Ummm why are people asking if LF's gift is Sweetrobin or Gendry? I thought it was obviously Lancel.

Lancel is not a boy. He's bigger than I am for crissakes.

What else has she got. this is the most desperate of a situation she has had since the show began. King's Landing was a cake walk compared to this. It also seems that none of her experiences or lessons have prepared her for dealing with Ramsay Bolton.

I disagree. This is worse but Joffrey's torments were not minor. Neither were Cerise's for that matter. Although Cerise's interactions with Sansa are really complicated in those episodes. There are times where she seems to show a glimmer of sympathy toward her, and others where she just seems really cruel. I'm thinking of the talk they had after her "flowering" and the dinner scene where Cersei flashed Sansa an evil look for not acknowledging some question from princess Myrcella.

The scene at court where Trant beats her while Joff is taunting her with a crossbow is still troubling to me if I'm honest. Seeing her fathers head on a spike is pretty brutal as well.

I think prior to KL, she was not only younger but also much more sheltered from the brutal realities of that world.

Side comment: There seems to be a population of book readers that have a lot of disdain for Sansa in the books and I think they tend to forget just how young she is. I read a lot of those comments and it seems to me that might make sense if we are talking about an adult but this is a barely pubescent child we're talking about.

But why would she? Imo, she's been through enough that she must realize she has to get out of her pickle alone. She won't receive much help, especially from the likes of Theon.

And if it was the broken tower, Ramsey would've taken another finger/toe or something for Reek betraying him.

It's established in that scene that Ramsey keeps her locked in that room. We even see Reek have to put down the food tray to fish for the key to open the door. We hear Reek lock the door after he leaves. The bruises on her body and her own words reveal that she's being subjected to constant abuse. She get's herself out of this pickle how? She signs up for mail order locksmithing courses? She grows wings?

Seriously, I don't see what the puzzle is here.

Also, anyone else having a hyperactive auto-correct problem? It's driving mad.

i don't agree he was in the old tower... i believe he went straight to ramsay in his chosen space to snitch.....

This.

They kind of make Sansa too stupid in the show. In the books she was a young lady influenced by songs and tales. I don't know why she would go to Theon for help. I could understand if Theon told Sansa the truth about her little brothers, but Sansa still believes he killed them, and she thinks she can get Theon to do her dirty work by calling him "Theon Greyjoy" as if she believes there is great honor in that house. It just doesn't make sense to me.

The scene with Bronn and the Sand Snake was lame imo.

Was Stannis trying to make one of those black ghosts again, or did they actually show a horny Stannis again?......

Everything else was really good. I thought Aemon and the HIgh Sparrow were the best parts. The actor who plays the High Sparrow nails every scene.

Theon is the only one she can turn to. It's a desperation move that didn't work.

Count me as one of those who hopes the High Sparrow knew about Cersei and Lancel and waited until the right moment to snare her.

While the offer LF made to Olenna was vague, I think it was Sweet Robin and the troops of the Vale. In order for LF to complete his rise, the Lannisters have to fall completely. The only reason it might have been Gendry would be for the same reason Ned Stark went looking for him - the physical description of Robert's true children. The book on the HS's alter looked suspiciously like the book Ned read as well as his predecessor.

If Sansa leaves WF as winter sets in the only logical destination would be Castle Black. But what would she find there?

I like the idea of Jamie and Cersei's incest to be made public, all the way to Dorne and Meereen. That would force Jamie to confirm to Mrycella her parentage and give Dany another reason to ride her dragons across the sea.

This seems a good shortcut for the directions GRRM seems to be heading. I do think Tommen isn't long for this world. Too few friends right now.

Finally excited for this season!

Ned didn't go looking for him. LF sent Ned to the "last place Jon Arron visited before he died." The blacksmith.

LF sending some random dudes into the world looking for children that kinda look like Robert? During a war? And they didn't stumble upon Yoren's caravan heading up the kings road to the wall?

Hardly if Sansa's most important plot line is to mother the heir of Winterfell.

Sansa can't be mother to the heir of Winterfell without being raped?

Maybe that's not her most important plotline? Why is it that the strongest critics of Sansa's current situation assume she's now a non-character?

He doesn't have him.

Chaos is a ladder. Goes with show LF's explanation of Joffrey's death.

Yeah, and he was lying to Sansa there. Joffrey's murder makes Lady Ollenna his co conspirator. It also gives him a mechanism to get Sansa out, though that's thread is going to take an unexpected turn.

it's sad how his didn't know anything about his old life.

It's not just the torment, but the constant threat of torture. In the books, Reek is sometimes tortured for no reason, or Ramsey will engineer a situation where Reek can't win. e.g., Theon's admission to Lady Dustin (I think) that he begged Ramsey to remove his digits (which is literally true but hardly complete) or starving him half to death then threatening him with flaying or amputation for eating a rat in the pen he is kept without permission to "eat one of the dreadfort's rats". Also, engineering his escape so he could be hunted and brought back.

Ramsey's version of being nice to Reek is "only" keeping him in a state of constant fear.

Yeah exactly. Its not Gendry that LF is offering up. Whatever it is, it likely has nothing to do with Cersei. I'm sure LF knew this had to backfire on Cersei one way or another (he even told her it was a bad idea). There would be no need for LF to get involved in that. LF has something else cookin' (as usual).

When he says "the same thing I offered Cersei, A boy" I assumed he's talking about Sweet Robin, referring to the Vale.

He's engineering a war. Stoking tension and making alliances with a bunch of sides. He's doing it all in secret and in such a way that he various factions betray each other. Risky.

poor sansa she's pretty much on her own. inless she can get though to theon. The ramsay and theon thing is very odd to me.

There is no Theon. Only Reek.

Well, I guess Mr. Logical will have to do some self reflection on why it was ok to sacrifice Gendry in Season 3 but not Shireen. I guess sacrifice of family members for the good of the realm doesn't apply to immediate family members.

Davos' interactions with Stannis in that episode deal exactly with that.

Gendry roed away from Dragonstone and likely went back to the bottoms in KL, LF would be the kind of guy to keep tabs on Robert's bastards, especially after most were killed in season one.

He was last seen rowing out to sea. Before that he was in Stannis' dungeons. Before that he was trapsing through the war torn riverlands, or as a captive of one group or another. What tabs?

This makes sense as seeing Gendry was what led Ned to the truth of Cersei's incest

Littlefinger is going to magically produce Gendry? Where's he keeping him? In a box?

These two characters have never even met on the show.

If HS has been playing Cersei all along, I have to say his game was masterful:

1. Build a power base of supporting the people.

2. Expose the current High Septon's hypocrisy and discredit him in the eyes of the people.

3. When the queen comes calling, act humble and genial.

4. Readily agree to take down someone the queen implies she wants taken down.

5. Lull the queen into a false sense of security by discrediting people she wants discredited.

6. Sit on damning information until a precedent has been established for imprisoning nobles for their crimes.

7. Spring the trap and arrest the queen.

Yup.

I'm pretty sure Tommen will die this season. :(

I thought the death of one or both of Cerise's children was forshadowed in the prologue to episode 1

Don't get me wrong, I want the Boltons dead as much as the next person, but I highly doubt they're killing off Ramsay or Roose this season. They're the only huge villains the show has right now. If they were to take that away, then they'd take away that "bad guy" element, and you need that kind of element to have a good show.

I agree with you about Sansa though. She wouldn't be able to kill him, at least, right now. Maybe some time in season 6?

I don't think she'll kill Ramsey... But she might wound him.

As far as the Winterfell plot goes, Sansa hasn't gone "full Jeyne", but then, I don't think anybody ever expected that. Against the plot, while this could always be brought up later, there's really no sign here that Sansa being raped is going to be addressed in any manner beyond "Ramsay raped her and she got teary-eyed, but she's a Tough Chick so whatever", which is not going to win the show any points on the Handling of Sexual Assault scale.

There was a lot of yodelling on the previous show thread that HBO, being utter morons, would make it that Sansa would completely forget Ramsey's abuse and go skipping tralala by the end of the season. Anyone still think that'll happen?

I like think there is every promise that they will take it on in a mature way, though there will be criticism regardless.

so another near rape scene.. GiIlly this time. is there any other material they could come up with ? or anything from the actual source material ? for christ's sake

I agree that made me more than a little uncomfortable after the end of e06. I also thought Ghost's appearance was a little contrived.

She was supposedly empowered before.

Oh brother. This is the buzzword apparently.

Other thoughts,

I thought the Dorne scenes were great. Locking Bronn in the same jail as the sand snakes was a nice touch. I really didn't know how that was going to go. Lovely singing voice.

Cersei bringing Margery a gift of "day old venison" was a nice bit of symbolism.

That altar is obviously made of concrete. Just sayin'.

Solid episode.

It happened so quickly and it does seem a bit rushed.

What did Sansa pick up while she was out of her chambers? Me thinks she is going to find her way out next week or threaten Theon or something. That would be a bit of a downer for Theons character arc if he is FORCED to help Sansa escape rather then just doing it because deep down he cares for her. Maybe it will be a little bit of both. But this is getting a bit frustrating to watch the WF storyline go on like this.

What the hell are Brienne and Pod going to do? They wait till Ramsey and men leave to fight Stannis and rush in with a bunch of farmers and townfolk to overrun Roose and co?

So, it would be too bad if the show stayed truer to the source material? Theon/Reek is compelled there as well.