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Deadlines? What Deadlines?

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  1. That scene made me 'think' aswell.

    He mentions Jon Snow during their back and forth about bastards. She implies he can't inherit if Walda's child is a boy (that was naughty of her), the Ramsey was legitimize by a bastard himself. Ramsey counters with the brute fact that the bastard of Winterfell is now LC demonstrating bastards can rise very high. I though that was clear.

    Ummm why are people asking if LF's gift is Sweetrobin or Gendry? I thought it was obviously Lancel.

    Lancel is not a boy. He's bigger than I am for crissakes.

  2. What else has she got. this is the most desperate of a situation she has had since the show began. King's Landing was a cake walk compared to this. It also seems that none of her experiences or lessons have prepared her for dealing with Ramsay Bolton.

    I disagree. This is worse but Joffrey's torments were not minor. Neither were Cerise's for that matter. Although Cerise's interactions with Sansa are really complicated in those episodes. There are times where she seems to show a glimmer of sympathy toward her, and others where she just seems really cruel. I'm thinking of the talk they had after her "flowering" and the dinner scene where Cersei flashed Sansa an evil look for not acknowledging some question from princess Myrcella.

    The scene at court where Trant beats her while Joff is taunting her with a crossbow is still troubling to me if I'm honest. Seeing her fathers head on a spike is pretty brutal as well.

    I think prior to KL, she was not only younger but also much more sheltered from the brutal realities of that world.

    Side comment: There seems to be a population of book readers that have a lot of disdain for Sansa in the books and I think they tend to forget just how young she is. I read a lot of those comments and it seems to me that might make sense if we are talking about an adult but this is a barely pubescent child we're talking about.

  3. But why would she? Imo, she's been through enough that she must realize she has to get out of her pickle alone. She won't receive much help, especially from the likes of Theon.

    And if it was the broken tower, Ramsey would've taken another finger/toe or something for Reek betraying him.

    It's established in that scene that Ramsey keeps her locked in that room. We even see Reek have to put down the food tray to fish for the key to open the door. We hear Reek lock the door after he leaves. The bruises on her body and her own words reveal that she's being subjected to constant abuse. She get's herself out of this pickle how? She signs up for mail order locksmithing courses? She grows wings?

    Seriously, I don't see what the puzzle is here.

    Also, anyone else having a hyperactive auto-correct problem? It's driving mad.

  4. They kind of make Sansa too stupid in the show. In the books she was a young lady influenced by songs and tales. I don't know why she would go to Theon for help. I could understand if Theon told Sansa the truth about her little brothers, but Sansa still believes he killed them, and she thinks she can get Theon to do her dirty work by calling him "Theon Greyjoy" as if she believes there is great honor in that house. It just doesn't make sense to me.

    The scene with Bronn and the Sand Snake was lame imo.

    Was Stannis trying to make one of those black ghosts again, or did they actually show a horny Stannis again?......

    Everything else was really good. I thought Aemon and the HIgh Sparrow were the best parts. The actor who plays the High Sparrow nails every scene.

    Theon is the only one she can turn to. It's a desperation move that didn't work.

  5. Count me as one of those who hopes the High Sparrow knew about Cersei and Lancel and waited until the right moment to snare her.

    While the offer LF made to Olenna was vague, I think it was Sweet Robin and the troops of the Vale. In order for LF to complete his rise, the Lannisters have to fall completely. The only reason it might have been Gendry would be for the same reason Ned Stark went looking for him - the physical description of Robert's true children. The book on the HS's alter looked suspiciously like the book Ned read as well as his predecessor.

    If Sansa leaves WF as winter sets in the only logical destination would be Castle Black. But what would she find there?

    I like the idea of Jamie and Cersei's incest to be made public, all the way to Dorne and Meereen. That would force Jamie to confirm to Mrycella her parentage and give Dany another reason to ride her dragons across the sea.

    This seems a good shortcut for the directions GRRM seems to be heading. I do think Tommen isn't long for this world. Too few friends right now.

    Finally excited for this season!

    Ned didn't go looking for him. LF sent Ned to the "last place Jon Arron visited before he died." The blacksmith.

    LF sending some random dudes into the world looking for children that kinda look like Robert? During a war? And they didn't stumble upon Yoren's caravan heading up the kings road to the wall?

  6. Hardly if Sansa's most important plot line is to mother the heir of Winterfell.

    Sansa can't be mother to the heir of Winterfell without being raped?

    Maybe that's not her most important plotline? Why is it that the strongest critics of Sansa's current situation assume she's now a non-character?

    Am I missing something? Why would it help LF/QOT to have a King Baratheon bastard? Margery is married to Tommen. Pressing Gendry's claim would weaken Tommen's and Margery's.

    He doesn't have him.

  7. Chaos is a ladder. Goes with show LF's explanation of Joffrey's death.

    Yeah, and he was lying to Sansa there. Joffrey's murder makes Lady Ollenna his co conspirator. It also gives him a mechanism to get Sansa out, though that's thread is going to take an unexpected turn.

  8. it's sad how his didn't know anything about his old life.

    It's not just the torment, but the constant threat of torture. In the books, Reek is sometimes tortured for no reason, or Ramsey will engineer a situation where Reek can't win. e.g., Theon's admission to Lady Dustin (I think) that he begged Ramsey to remove his digits (which is literally true but hardly complete) or starving him half to death then threatening him with flaying or amputation for eating a rat in the pen he is kept without permission to "eat one of the dreadfort's rats". Also, engineering his escape so he could be hunted and brought back.

    Ramsey's version of being nice to Reek is "only" keeping him in a state of constant fear.

  9. Yeah exactly. Its not Gendry that LF is offering up. Whatever it is, it likely has nothing to do with Cersei. I'm sure LF knew this had to backfire on Cersei one way or another (he even told her it was a bad idea). There would be no need for LF to get involved in that. LF has something else cookin' (as usual).

    When he says "the same thing I offered Cersei, A boy" I assumed he's talking about Sweet Robin, referring to the Vale.

    He's engineering a war. Stoking tension and making alliances with a bunch of sides. He's doing it all in secret and in such a way that he various factions betray each other. Risky.

  10. Well, I guess Mr. Logical will have to do some self reflection on why it was ok to sacrifice Gendry in Season 3 but not Shireen. I guess sacrifice of family members for the good of the realm doesn't apply to immediate family members.

    Davos' interactions with Stannis in that episode deal exactly with that.

  11. Gendry roed away from Dragonstone and likely went back to the bottoms in KL, LF would be the kind of guy to keep tabs on Robert's bastards, especially after most were killed in season one.

    He was last seen rowing out to sea. Before that he was in Stannis' dungeons. Before that he was trapsing through the war torn riverlands, or as a captive of one group or another. What tabs?

  12. If HS has been playing Cersei all along, I have to say his game was masterful:

    1. Build a power base of supporting the people.

    2. Expose the current High Septon's hypocrisy and discredit him in the eyes of the people.

    3. When the queen comes calling, act humble and genial.

    4. Readily agree to take down someone the queen implies she wants taken down.

    5. Lull the queen into a false sense of security by discrediting people she wants discredited.

    6. Sit on damning information until a precedent has been established for imprisoning nobles for their crimes.

    7. Spring the trap and arrest the queen.

    Yup.

  13. I'm pretty sure Tommen will die this season. :(

    I thought the death of one or both of Cerise's children was forshadowed in the prologue to episode 1

    Don't get me wrong, I want the Boltons dead as much as the next person, but I highly doubt they're killing off Ramsay or Roose this season. They're the only huge villains the show has right now. If they were to take that away, then they'd take away that "bad guy" element, and you need that kind of element to have a good show.

    I agree with you about Sansa though. She wouldn't be able to kill him, at least, right now. Maybe some time in season 6?

    I don't think she'll kill Ramsey... But she might wound him.

    As far as the Winterfell plot goes, Sansa hasn't gone "full Jeyne", but then, I don't think anybody ever expected that. Against the plot, while this could always be brought up later, there's really no sign here that Sansa being raped is going to be addressed in any manner beyond "Ramsay raped her and she got teary-eyed, but she's a Tough Chick so whatever", which is not going to win the show any points on the Handling of Sexual Assault scale.

    There was a lot of yodelling on the previous show thread that HBO, being utter morons, would make it that Sansa would completely forget Ramsey's abuse and go skipping tralala by the end of the season. Anyone still think that'll happen?

    I like think there is every promise that they will take it on in a mature way, though there will be criticism regardless.

    so another near rape scene.. GiIlly this time. is there any other material they could come up with ? or anything from the actual source material ? for christ's sake

    I agree that made me more than a little uncomfortable after the end of e06. I also thought Ghost's appearance was a little contrived.

    She was supposedly empowered before.

    Oh brother. This is the buzzword apparently.

    Other thoughts,

    I thought the Dorne scenes were great. Locking Bronn in the same jail as the sand snakes was a nice touch. I really didn't know how that was going to go. Lovely singing voice.

    Cersei bringing Margery a gift of "day old venison" was a nice bit of symbolism.

    That altar is obviously made of concrete. Just sayin'.

    Solid episode.

  14. It happened so quickly and it does seem a bit rushed.

    What did Sansa pick up while she was out of her chambers? Me thinks she is going to find her way out next week or threaten Theon or something. That would be a bit of a downer for Theons character arc if he is FORCED to help Sansa escape rather then just doing it because deep down he cares for her. Maybe it will be a little bit of both. But this is getting a bit frustrating to watch the WF storyline go on like this.

    What the hell are Brienne and Pod going to do? They wait till Ramsey and men leave to fight Stannis and rush in with a bunch of farmers and townfolk to overrun Roose and co?

    So, it would be too bad if the show stayed truer to the source material? Theon/Reek is compelled there as well.

  15. It's an artistic business, so it is more complicated than this. If you think a business should be conducted with no ethics, then I can reply that concentration camps were also business. Slave work in service of a war effort. Is this how you see the world?

    OK, far be it from me to offer advice to strangers on the internet, but maybe you need to step off this forum for a tick and calm down a little.

    I thought this thread might be becoming a race to the bottom in terms of posts becoming more and more hysterical, now I'm convinced of it. After the better part of 40 pages, we've seen it argued that D&D just wanted Sansa to get raped (planning it for years apparently), accusations of "fridging", several hundred words arguing Tommen is a rape victim and accusations that they aged Tommen just so they could have a sex scene with him and Mergery (a scene which does not actually exist).

    You could have made the concentration camp argument, but you didn't. You only mentioned it. Still, if you think some kind of moral equivalence can be drawn between D&D/HBO editorial decisions regarding their adaptation of ASOIAF and concentration camps? I can't think of anything more vulgar and offensive.

    I'm off.

  16. Why do I care if D&D like an actor? This is an adaptation, not their original work.

    They are hired to put GRRM's work on the TV screen, not invent some inferior fan fiction. Any fool can do that. What we have been watching this season has nothing to do with the original work. As I said before, in adaptation, main characters' arcs can be shortened, but not altered. It has nothing to do with Ramsey. Sansa never met Ramsey in the books.

    You know that HBO doesn't care. You also know D&D do care. Are you an insider or are you inventing as you go along?

    Right. So says the Geneva convention on cinematic adaptations of novels.

    What on earth are you talking about?

  17. I don't see how else they can play it. She's either a victim, treated with honesty and realism. Or she's 'empowered' by the experience and seeks revenge.

    You don't see how they can play it because you've set up a false dichotomy between two specific tropes. Forget "empowerment" which is a word that has a positive connotation and has been bandied about far too often. How about someone who "is wronged and seeks retribution"? How about someone who is "degraded and humiliated and seeks revenge."

    And if you think the experience of rape victims is some homogenous mass of consensus and raped women revenging themselves on their rapists is a tired trope, guess again. You could google "revenge against rapists" for instance, or, off the top of my head, tow words: Lorena Bobbit.

  18. Okay, there seems to be a lot of miscommunication between us. First off, you seem to be stuck on rescue of Jeyne. When I say Jeyne's main purpose is to motivate Theon, I'm *not* saying her purpose is to motivate Theon to *aid in her rescue* (which is what I think you're implying). Theon's arc in this part of ASOIAF is largely about his own identity (going from Reek back to Theon). The events you cite are actually an example of that: Jeyne's presence serves as a catalyst for the spear wives to influence Theon to escape.

    Beyond that, I don't know how to clear this up other than a labor-intensive reread. We will have to just disagree.

    To the second point, I was not trying to involve myself in your conversation about 'rape apology'. I'm only trying to point out that fictional rape being different from real-world rape is highly applicable to *our* conversation. In fiction some characters are more important than others. Minor characters serve different narrative purposes than main ones.

    1. That is still a gross oversimplification of what happens in that storyline.

    2. People on these boards have not been making assertions about Jeynes torment at the hands of Ramsey and her rescue by a resurgent Theon, not her "presence", or Theon's "escape".

    I still have a big problem with the distinction between major and minor characters where rape is concerned. The pitfalls are the same regardless.

    Because there are so many reasons why this scene was a bad idea we maybe talking at cross purposes about different things. I have objections when these type of scenes are used as shock value, play into unpleasant tropes, play to the nastier wishes of the dark side of fandom or when plot lines are wrung through an insanity wormhole to make them happen, all of which I think have happened in this case.

    There is an "insanity wormhole" only if you start with the assertion that "the show writers took her to Winterfell just so she could get raped" and reason backwards. I don't agree with this. I do agree with your comment about the "darker side of the fandom", but I'm seeing very little of that here. If there were people who thought Sansa deserved to be raped or somehow found that scene tittilating, I don't know what they're talking about. They should probably get fitted for an ankle bracelet ASAP because, yikes.

    The whole scenario of her being "sold" to the Boltons by Littlefinger is ludacris and further so for her at Moat Caillin to go ahead with it. That right there, when she agrees to cross Moat Caillin is the hingepoint to where this whole Sansa/Ramsay thing really went off the rails.

    Is this something we are doing post hoc or were there outrage threads at the time about her crossing Moat Calin?

    Lol, people saying this is a realistic rape scene are really reaching. You want to see a realistic rape scene. Here are two examples.

    http://rapebait.net/?p=250

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNqJdsiQZyA

    Now, the second one is Dr Melfi's rape from The Sopranos. Here is an excerpt from on the writers of Entertainment weekly when discussing the rape.

    "The rape scene is brutal in its directness, focusing mainly on Melfi’s face as she screams and sobs. There’s no ominous music or stylized camera work to remind the viewers that it’s just a TV show and to take them out of what’s being shown on screen."

    The complete opposite from the Sansa scene.

    Here's some more.

    "For a physically and emotionally terrorized Melfi, Tony now represents protection – and, possibly, revenge. Chase(showrunner) didn’t brutalize Jennifer to make her a victim; he did it to push her to the brink of a moral and ethical crisis. Will Melfi sic Tony on her attacker, have him, in her words, ”squashed like a bug”?

    I actually thought the Melfi "crisis" storyline in those episodes was one of the most compelling things they did in that show. However, re-watching that season of the Sopranos a while back, I must confess I had to skip that part. In much the same way I still approach the Red Wedding episode and will probably approach future viewings of "Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken", it's just crushing to watch.

    It would be interesting to see what the critical and fan reaction to that scene was at the time. A scene, I will add that was far more graphic and far more brutal than what we saw last Sunday. Not that it has anything to do with the validity of the direction of the Sansa story line, but it might be interesting.

    Yes. Thank you. That's the freaking point.

    ANYONE would save Sansa Stark. No one would lift a finger for Jeyne Poole.

    Theon did.

    And if they ever find out, Theon is dead. He didn't mind. He had enough and saved Jeyne Poole.

    That's the difference between reading and understanding the text.

    Theon didn't.

    Yes.

    And before you start something senseless, boys can be raped too. Margaery, a grown woman, is having sex with him with the purpose of manipulating him and using him. Doesn't matter how much he enjoyed it (because, for instance, victims of rape, male and female, can have orgasms as well): it was statutory rape.

    Yea he is, actually. Tommen is no more than thirteen right now -his age in season one was stated to be eight.

    I don't think that's right. In fact, it's stated a number of times that many of the Northern Lords believe her to be Arya.

    The showrunners aged Tommen up to the medieval age of consent precisely so they could have him and Margaery sleep together. It didn't do Tommen's character any favours, frankly, but the showrunners just wanted more sex.

    I must have slept through part of that episode or something. That, or you are arguing that the show's creators made a gratuitous editorial decision for something they didn't actually depict. There is no Margery/Tommen sexy time scene. There was no reluctant voyuer in the room. There was no physical/sexual domination or extortion/compulsion taking place or even alluded to. There is no analogy to that Sansa scene or crypt scene or Dany's honeymoon at all.

    I for one like the slightly aged, though weak and inexperienced Tommen as opposed to the super childish pre-pubescent Tommen. Tommen in the books is someone who can't do anything. Tommen in the show is someone who should do something.

    On the subject of characters ages and sexual maturity, Martin himself has addressed this regarding what happens in the books. This world is thoroughly patriarchal and medieval in nature. In those times, there was no conception of adolescence. That's not me saying that, that's GRRM.

    Even beyond that, current statutory rape laws notwithstanding, It is really easy to forget that we are only a few generations removed from a time when it was utterly ordinary for a young woman to be married off at 16 and even as young as 13 or 14. I'm talking about my great grand parents or even grandparents generation. Now, it was also typical for the male to be a few years older. They have reversed this in the case of Margery/Tommen. So what?

    Time is short and they're wasting it on fanfiction so that Sophie Turner gets more screen time (not even getting into WHAT THEY DID WITH HER of course). Protar's suggestion would actually have given them more time to tell the actual fucking story.

    Fictional character, right? I'm sure Sophie is just fine.

  19. Defending a fictional rape is still making excuses for it. Here is another couple of examples to add to those above:

    "She knew what she was getting into"

    "She went home with him, what did she expect to happen"

    Variations of both of these as well as the good old, but there is no rape in marriage excuse have been flying around the comments sections of numerous articles.

    We can even go back to when book readers were discussing the original Jeyne scene describing it as partly her fault for not fighting back or trying to find a way to escape. The nasty old trope of not resisting meaning it is partly the victim's fault.

    As far as "defending the fictional rape" I would have exactly the same objections as you do. That is not the same thing as defending the inclusion of a rape scene and the implications that has for the story. I thought that's what we were talking about here.

  20. Hey, didn't respond to your earlier comment because I didn't really know where to start. Yes, Jeyne was used to further Theon's development... that should be obvious in the books. I don't know where to start with that objection other than to suggest a reread.

    You seem confused so Ill state it more clearly: There are multiple mentions in this thread of Jeyne Poole being a plot device to facilitate a resurgent Theon who saves the day. This is then used as an argument against merging elements of the Jeyne storyline with Sansa's because it somehow diminishes a strong primary character.

    This argument is weak (in part) because it starts with many gross representations of what happens in those chapters, not the least of which being the complete omission of the role of Mance Rayder and the spear wives in the liberation of Theon and Jeyne from Winterfell. I also objected to the "fridging" trope because no one here can tell the future. If Sansa's arc unfolds in a particular way, then we can have an intelligent discussion about that.

    Could be answered with your own words:

    Again, there seems to be confusion. The words that you quoted were part of a criticism of another poster's use of the term "rape apologist". A "rape apologist" is derogatory term for someone who attempts to discredit claims of alleged real world rape. It is not appropriately applied to someone who is defending the merit of a fictional rape scene.

    Edit: I have no problem extending this term to the "Sansa/Jeyne had it coming" or "It wasn't really rape" crowd, but again, not applicable to someone defending the inclusion of the scene.

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