Floki of the Ironborn

Because he was too busy crapping on his allies and brooding all day.

I agree with a lot of what's already been said. I enjoyed the formatting of FAB. I love how GRRM replicates how we have to take ancient historians with a grain of salt due to their own biases and limitations. Some of his most interesting characters are in FAB. They drew very strong reactions from me, both in a positive way (Corlys Velaryon, Ben Blackwood) a negative way (Aegon III, Alicent Hightower), and a mixed way (Tyland Lannister, Daemon Targaryen).

I also think it's a shame that GRRM couldn't make the book longer, but frankly, if he shelved the main series in order to give us more FAB instead, I wouldn't be angry about that. The focus he put on worldbuilding was what hooked me to his writing in the first place. We might find flaws with it, but it's so dense with material and potential, as well as being endlessly debatable. 

I can buy that Aenys was a secret bastard. The fact that she basically named him after herself rather than Aegon is a subtle tell, but FAB basically said the quiet part out loud. 

But who's Maegor's father supposed to be under this theory?

Shadrich doesn't know anything. He's the ignorant buffoon who we get to laugh at.

8 hours ago, CassDarry said:

Ser Bonifer Hasty,

 

How is Bonifer a badass again? I don't really recall what he's done so far.

4 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Is Davos considered a badass? If he is, I apologize. But Ser Davos Seaworth. He repeatedly does actions he believes are right and then faces the consequences. Davos stands for what he believes in, and does not back down even when most would be afraid, or go with the flow. 

Ser Robar Royce - Without him, Catelyn and Brienne would most likely be dead, and I think his actions to protect someone he thinks is innocent, but is also essentially his enemy (Catelyn) is extremely honorable. 

Royce's younger brother Waymar was also a badass. He's face-to-face with the ancient enemies of humankind after thousands of years since they last appeared and his response? "Dance with me, then." 

3 hours ago, Green Stag said:

 

While I don't disagree with Rhaena's PTSD; much of Androw's treatment by everyone rested on her, if her handmaidens and others felt she had some respect for him, they likely would have as well (even if a small amount), instead it appears to have become a game for them, leading him to become increasingly isolated and likely feeling hopeless. 

Why didn't he just focus on her, then? Seems really sadistic to slowly kill off her partners one by one, not to mention the maester who did nothing wrong as far as we know. If Aerea hadn't fled, he probably would have poisoned her too. Would that be justifiable?

Braavos is a blend of Amsterdam and Venice with a touch of Rhodes.

Myr could arguably be the city of Baghdad before it was destroyed by the Mongols, given that it is an old place of great learning and technological advancement.

Norvos reminds me a bit of Sparta during the Roman Empire; a once-great city in decline, known for an elite group of highly religious warriors. 

Pentos, Volantis, Myr, and Tyrosh all remind me of southern European cities. Maybe some place like Florence? They could also be a mix of Carthage, Tyre, or Antioch. All of those cities were once powerful and part of vast empires, after all.

I agree that Qohor has a touch of Constantinople, given that it's a gateway of sorts to the eastern portion of Essos, but that's a loose connection. If I had to guess, I'd say you could compare it to Pergamum, since they've found evidence of magicians living in that city. Except in this case, Qohor really does have magicians in it.

Lorath is like some old Greek city (the mazemakers could be Minoans, then the warlike Andals showing up are the Mycenaeans or Dorians, etc) except its location is more alike to Copenhagen.

13 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 

The Freys made most of their money from the riverlands, not just with trade but the constant warfare that was going on, even after the Harrens took over. All that would have ground to a near-halt after the Conquest. The need to cross at that part of the river pretty much evaporated, and whatever trade made its way that far north on the new road bypassed the Twins altogether.

This is why I suspect the Freys are not as wealthy as they pretend to be. Their halls are meager, their clothing is shabby, and a truly wealthy vassal like the Reynes and Hightowers would offer gold for their brides, not silver -- especially if they aspired to marry into a house paramount.

That's a very interesting theory. I never considered that notion. I just figured that the Freys were a bit broke because there are so damn many of them ("heh"). But that makes much more sense, given that their location seems so isolated for such a protected bridge.

9 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

Important lgbt characters are : the first Rhaena, Daenerys, Daeron son of Aegon V, Satin, Renly, Loras, Nymeria Sand, the Fowler twins, Cersei. I don't know how to relate these characters to history,anyway, it's very difficult

Quite a few English monarchs are theorized by many historians as having been either gay or bi based on contemporary insinuations/rumours and some measure of possible evidence. There's Edward II, James I, William II, Richard I, Richard II, William III, and Queen Anne.

And that's just England, I'm sure there are several other possible LGBTQ monarchs from world history. Alexander the Great comes to mind, but there's no word if his Targaryen equivalent was bi.

Also, gotta love that person up above complaining about university education having an agenda when literally all education that's ever existed has *always* had an agenda. Left, right, centrist, anarchist, there is always an agenda leaning one way or the other. Literally everyone who writes a document for historical preservation has a biased world view, and that bias will reveal itself no matter how "objective" they claim to be, or even try to be. The education boards in every country are full of people with their own biases, filtering what is included and excluded from curriculums. And political indoctrination has always been a factor in that filtering process. When I was in school, I didn't learn about my country's systematic racial discrimination towards non-white people, I had to learn that by hearing people's first-hand accounts of that bigotry within the institutions. And you don't have to look far to see the backlash to the idea of students learning about that side of their country's history.

Tywin can deny it all he wants, I'm convinced that he knew what he was doing when he sent Gregor Clegane after Elia and the kids. He never forgot that snubbing of his daughter marrying Rhaegar, and this was his revenge come round. Tywin has always been a man who holds onto grievances and grudges, real or imaginary. He never forgives and never forgets. One of the biggest monsters in the series. 

For my part, I'm going with Marq Piper and Kayl Vance.

Not enough attention is given to these two. They have much the same situation as Beric Dondarrion and Thoros of Myr, when you look at it. In the name of protecting their smallfolk, they rode south to King's Landing in order to get Ned's help against the encroaching Lannisters. They then survive a tremendous defeat against the Lannisters, but rather than become demoralised broken men, they rally fifty supporters and proceed to harass and raid Jaime's army for as long as they can. After Robb shows up on the scene, they become among his most prevalent support in the Riverlands. Marq even survives the Red Wedding, which is more than you can say for most of the men who attended those festivities.

Here's hoping that they play a role in liberating the Riverlands in the next book.

26 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Justin Massey as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard?

Justin doesn't want to join the Kingsguard. Richard Horpe did try to join, but he got turned down for whatever reason. (Did we ever get a reason for that?)

9 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

That still doesn't answer why Stannis doesn't make alliance with Robb. A raven from Ned is all the evidence he needs.

Robb declared himself king in the north. That changes everything in regards to what Ned or Stannis might have wanted or expected. 

8 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Who handles ravens in the red keep? Pycelle.

Pycelle wouldn't know what's in the message, and he wouldn't dare break the wax seal and read it if Ned watched him send the raven off. 

5 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

What is the other option though? I haven't seen any good solution for this particular problem.

If Ned sends someone trusted to Stannis with the information, then Robb would almost certainly join him, and that details the story.

 

Ned sends Stannis a raven before confronting Cersei. 

I feel like GRRM made a huge mistake having Stannis know about the incest babies before Ned figures it out. It makes Stannis into a much more inconsistent character who, as it's been pointed out, sits on vital info which would have averted the war if only more people had known about it. 

GRRM needed Stannis to avoid the military coup in AGOT, but he also needed someone other than Ned to know about Cersei and Robert's kids. Picking Stannis might have made sense in the moment, but I don't think it works in hindsight.

2 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

IMO (and according to how their titles are phrased) post-RR House Baratheon became like the Buyids. So if Renly had children, they inherit Storm's End over Stannis.

As for why Renly should have backed Stannis ... I am also in the confused camp. Renly and Stannis have equal legal claims to KL and the IT after Robert's death, why should he have supported Stannis, asides from Stannis is the elder brother?

You can't have 'equal legal claims' to a single title in a feudalist society. The elder brother supercedes the younger in lines of succession. Just like how sons supercede brothers, and legitimate sons supercede bastards. 

40 minutes ago, Quoth the raven, said:

The Targaryens were tolerant of the Starks.  The North is poor and revenues from taxes were most likely paltry.  Aegon removed Black Harren and saved Westeros from Ironborn domination.  The Starks should be thankful.

 

Come the eff on. The Ironborn were never going to dominate Westeros. The friggin Stormlands have more fighting men than the Ironborn do. 

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

The point I was making is that Edmure was not thinking in protecting Robb, he was not thinking of the orders he had to follow, he was moving based on pride and the text let that very clear. 

And the only constant we have on Edmure is that on military matters he always makes the wrong choice.

At the start of the war he blundered by spreading his force, than he makes another mistake in sending 2 outnumbered vassals against Jaime, than tries to face Jaime before his forces are assembled, than later on after being rescued by Robb he pressured him to let the riverlords return to their lands weakening Robb, and at last the fords.

He was arguably doing it to protect the smallfolk. He makes it clear enough that he wants to protect his people. He's already seen Tywin's forces destroy much of the Riverlands, why would he allow more of them to cross his territory again?

3 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

Robb had nothing to do with Edmure's motivation to face Tywin and the text let this very clear. He never talks about saving Robb, protecting his rear, he talks about glory, about blooding Tywin and he expects Robb to help him trap Tywin even when he sends no menssager.

Edmure wanted glory, was jealous of being outshined by his kid nephew, wanted to payback Tywin and saw a advantage on the terrain that could make up for his numbers.

 

Frankly, if it wasn't for Stannis, I'd say Edmure did the absolute right thing. Robb was wreaking havoc upon the Westerlands, which means Tywin had no choice but to go back and deal with him. But Edmure was able to defend the fords against every attack Tywin sent, trapping him on the wrong side of the river. 

Even for a Stark fan like me, I think it's debatable whether Robb would have been able to ambush Tywin on his own turf, but every day that Edmure stalled Tywin was another day that he could plunder the west and diminish Tywin's reputation. Edmure had no way of knowing that Tywin would have been able to easily turn back and defend King's Landing from Stannis, let alone create a new alliance with the Tyrells via Littlefinger (which by the way, holy hell did Littlefinger screw over the Starks and Tully's at every turn. Did he really think he'd ever win Catelyn over after all the evil he did?).

You can argue all day whether Edmure's victory at the Fords was the disaster that Robb made it out to be, but I don't think it's fair to blame Edmure for the negative consequences. Those were beyond his control, and he couldn't have anticipated them unless he had the readers' knowledge.

1 minute ago, Alester Florent said:

 

Traditionally, both in real life and in fantasy, white magic is used to help or heal others, black magic is used solely for the benefit of the one wielding it. It's a little more complicated than that but that's the gist.

 

And that is a tradition which I'd happily see die out. Especially in a genre which has constantly suffered from racist gate-keepers. Not saying you're one of them, but things like those terms just serve to enforce the status quo which still causes non-white actors grief when they step into 'traditionally white' roles in fantasy.

Just now, Craving Peaches said:

Why are they bad? I thought they were standard fantasy terms...

White magic meaning good and black magic meaning bad? Do I need to spell it out what the implications of those terms are? It's unpleasant and archaic.

Just now, Craving Peaches said:

Come on though, I know there is some nuance but the Shadow Assassins are not one of those parts. Just look at how Davos talks about them. The only person who thinks they are good is Melisandre.

I'm talking about the use of the terms "white magic" and "black magic" which you, James, and Alester are throwing around. Those are problematic terms of an older era, and the sooner we abandon them into the history books, the better.

On 8/11/2023 at 7:59 AM, Alden Rothack said:

How would the WO5K change if the Iron Islands, the Sisters and the Vale clans were loyal to the Starks

At what point in history are we talking? Because if the Vale clans were always loyal to the Starks, then the First Men of the Vale would have probably managed to repel the invading Andals when they first arrived.