Sigella

2 hours ago, zajaz said:

I do wonder how people overall might react to the end of the Dance. We saw how many were upset by Daenerys' fate, some by the potential sexist implications of having her go Mad Queen only to die at the hands of Jon. Some even said that having the only two female monarchs seated on the Iron Throne be trigger-happy murderers was a little problematic. Imagine when they watch what becomes of Alicent and Rhaenyra.

How got ended ruined it for me, I can’t do re-watches and have zero intrest in it, to some extent it even soured my deep appreciation of the book series.

I dare watch hotd partly because the end is already written and so is somewhat safe from swerving off the road like got did. Knowing the written material on the dance, even if it was poorly done I know what to expect.

On 6/7/2021 at 4:38 PM, Annara Snow said:

I haven't read the entire thread, so I don't know if someone else has said it already, but - Cersei's feminism?! Cersei is not a feminist in any shape or form. On the contrary, she is a misgynist. It is an excellent  portrayal of internalized misogyny. She despises her gender and despises other women, and hates the fact that she is a woman. She is bitter because of the lack of opportunities in Westeros relative to males of her social standing, like her father and Jaime, but that's not because she feels it's wrong to discrimiante against women. It's simply because she thinks she is better than everyone else, she is not like other girls, and should have been born a man, so she would have all those opportunities. All other women are weak and despicable and either stupid or malicious, according to her - and she treats other women like crap. 

You might maybe try to compare Cersei to what is pejoratively called White Feminism - but even people who can be said to be White Feminists (those who see feminism only in terms of the rights of women of their class, race and social standing and simply assume all women have the same issues, without thinking about their own privilege as white middle class Western (usually US) women and the fact that women of other races, classes etc. face different issues) at least think of other people besides themselves, even if those are just people of the same social standing as they are,  or think that they think of all women but never stop to understand the difference of experience.

Cersei, on the other hand, only ever cares about herself and her rights. The only time she felt some empathy for anyone else was for Myrcella - because she sees Myrcella as an extension of herself.

Of course, D&D never understood that and seem to have really viewed Cersei as some kind of feminist, giving her statements like "everywhere they hurt little girls"... while giving heroines like Arya and Brienne misogynistic statements that they do not have in the books ("Most girls are stupid", "You sound like a bloody woman" - instead of "craven").

Yes, Cersei’s feminism (bitter dead-ended as it is) exists. She’s pissed that she wasn’t given choices and possibilities on account of her gender (being sold off like brood mare, not getting a sword like Jaime etc). It has a lot of big flaws, but it is still feminism. Feminism/feminists can be misogynic. Misogyny is so deeply woven into everything its almost impossible to not ever do/say stuff that isn’t feministically correct.

The reasoning you have about Cersei’s exceptionalistic tendencies fits better with Dany’s aspacian piedestal, which is DANY has a right to rule everyone because she is so very special and other women aren’t at all like that, so they deserve being ruled over.

Aspasia was a highly intelligent highborn woman in Ancient greece a who won the right to vote but only specifically for HERSELF, other women didn’t matter (maybe it did, to her, but its not recorded to my knowledge).

On 5/15/2021 at 12:44 AM, Jaenara Belarys said:

Which contender would you support in the Dance? Aegon or Rhaenyra? Black or Green? Personally, I support Rhaenyra for the reasons of:

1. She has the better claim, with Targaryen blood on both sides

2. Viserys I declared her as his heir

3. Aegon is a hot tempered, fat little fool. He's a drunkard, a glutton and he cheats on his wife, big time. He's also a complete and utter idiot

 

What do you guys think? Black or Green? 

As a reader I'm 100% black (because Rhaenyra was made heir and greens are vulgar and screw the stupid patriarchy) - but had I been an in-story character I'd go green because blacks is too dangerous, they kill anyone around them on whim and I wouldn't be up for that.

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Oh Tolkien can do grey characters. The Silmarillion is full of them, particularly The Children of Hurin. Turin for example is directly based off of Kullervo from the Finnish epic poem the Kalevala. His pride and his temper cause him to exile himself from his foster father King Thingol after killing one of his counselors by accident in a feud (Thingol is no saint himself due to racist tendencies) and even after Thingol pardons him, Turin refuses to return. He cares for no other way of resisting Morgoth than force of arms, and this mindset is the direct cause of the destruction of the city of Nargothrond by the dragon Glaurung.

I’ve only read lotr and the Hobbits tale, I’m not big on fantasy generally, so it might well be Tolkien was more nuanced than he gets credit for.

But isn’t there an ssm that says that thing about Tolkien? And what Tolkien was or wasn’t isn’t so much the question as what Grrm thinks of Tolkien.

On 4/11/2021 at 12:02 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think that anger and sourness shows how much depth is put into it. They have complexity but stand by each other. It's hard to find that with the female characters. Instead of Lysa and Cat, Brienne and Cat are more interesting but it's so short lived.

Isn't that more mother/daughter in the books?

No friendship is ever completely equal, nor any two individuals/characters either so that isn't a reason to disregard them. 

Cat and Lysa (granted they're family/related more than friends but right there we have one of the  highest sourness-scores in the entire story, Cat's disastrous visit to the Eerie is soooooo good) is way more fascinating to me than Cat and Brienne. Cat takes pity on Brienne, Brienne comes to respect Cat's "womanly courage". Yawn.

On 4/11/2021 at 12:02 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

For Arya who has never had women friends I guess this is good. They seem like a collection of side characters, that feel more like acquaintences.

I wouldn't call the waif an acquaintance nor rate a relationship's worth based on how many pages they get. My interpretation on why Arya doesn't have female friends earlier is based off two things; Sansa and Jeyne bullying and a strong internal feminism. Girls don't play with swords, go on adventures etc, why would she want them around when those are the things Arya wants to do? The waif is finally another girl who trains to be an elite assassin.

Compared to Cersei's bitter dead end-feminism ("if I had been born male") or Dany's Aspacian piedestal (same such as Sansa is well underway onto as well) - Arya's feminism seems to grant her more freedoms than the other. Still however Cersei and Dany has been way more power-succesful while they aren't at all free.

3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The main thing GRRM needs to work on is female friendships. He loves writing about these for men, building scenes and plots around bro bonding and all that, but women have scaps. Sansa had Jeyne, and he separated them early on. Arianne and the Sand Snakes don't feel as fleshed out as say, Ned and Robert or Jon and Sam.

Dany and Missandei is pretty nicely depicted friendship to me.

But other than that I think the closest thing we get is Arya and book-waif and Arya and the whores at the happy port.

I do get why - Cersei and Taena/Cat and Lysa-types of friendships has a greater entertainment value than a nice and ”pure” friendships that only amounts to giggling and hugging and supporting each other through thick and thin.

The male friendships arent entirely pure either imo, Ned lying to/ arguing with Robert and even some fake breakups along the way. Jon and Sam might look pure at first glance but Sam is pretty sour about the baby swap plus there’s room for drama when Jon learns about Bran going beyond the wall.

I think GRRM maybe tried to make only grey characters in contrast to Tolkiens black or white ones, so thats probably part why.

We have the She-Bears and Asha for a lighter shade of grey, Brienne pretty much white... Granted none of them has a great deal of power en par with Cersei and Dany.

I really hope for book-Dany to have a less horrid  road than show-Dany but it does feel like grasping for straws in doing so.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

 

1) 

•    The child was stated to be unlikely to survive, so what would exactly would people whisper if he¡s simply declared dead??
• People have whispered about Tywin always, he has paid them little mind until the twincest came up... because it threatened his power and even then he did not overreact to them.

 

2) People don't know what Tyrion looked like.  People imagine how he looked like.   If Tywin says Tyrion's dead, the only thing others would be getting, if that ever happens, would be a random dwarf boy, unless Tyrion is the dwarf in Westeros, he can dismiss everything pretty easily. Even if by chance they happen to stumble into Tyrion.

 

3) Tyion was not going to get the Rock, even after Tywin declared him as a Lannister and his son before the entire Realm, not after Jaime had been in the Kingsguard for almost two decades.

What support would a random dwarf passing off as Tyrion could ever get??  Zero.

 

4) Unless the westernlords were eager to have a dwarf as their lord, I don't really think that would be much of a problem. 

 

Why would anyone be aware of anything?? Would Tywin publicly declare that he intended to abandon his son??

 

 

I think you overestimate it. I also think that you believe that Tywin would make it public...

Regardless, abandoning one's child is disgusting, even by Westerosi standards i'd say.  yet it's not taboo.

 

Iirc it was Gerion the one to say it.  

Ok we’ll have to agree to diagree here, so far none of us seems to be able to convince the other and its off topic anyhow.  

3 hours ago, frenin said:

Fair enough. But if i don't misremember Tywin's siblings were of similar opinions and one of the reasons Tywin hates Tyrion is because "he killed his mother in the womb".

The only ones we hear from are Genna and Kevvan. Genna like Tywin because he opposed he marriage and Kevvan doesn’t reflect on Tywin from what I can remember, so thats really not any proof either way.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

Sure it is. All people knew about Tyrion was that he was a "monster", as Oberyn tells to Tyrion himself the tales had grown too old to bear any significant resemblance with Tyrion.

I’ll elaborate why it isn’t. 
1 If the child disapears people will whisper* and ofc they will think Tywin threw him in a well,

2 An abandoned child could get into the wrong hands, considering their strained relationship Aerys would probably pay a pretty penny to humiliate Tywin by parading his son around the court, any rival or rebel would love to have him as well.

3 Down the line pretenders could become a real problem, who wouldn’t like the favour of an heir to Casterly Rock? 

4 All inheritances would be murky waters, Tyrion is second in line for the westerlands so every heir after Jaime would sit very uncertain
 

* which means everyone will know that there is an abnormal child gone missing and will so react accordingly if one should turn up, talk would spread of that as well.

Also I think you misunderstand the mechanics of a taboo. I don’t think Tywin is afraid to break it in itself - but he isn’t dumb so he sees the cost of social stigma. It would give Aerys SO many more barbs to puncture his overly proud Hand with, even if Tywin just left the child with some nice farmers.

22 minutes ago, frenin said:

Abandoning one's child is not kinslaying. By definition.

 

We know that "while Tywin ruled the Realm, Joanna ruled him", that all his smiles etc belonged to him and that a part of him died with her.

Seems a little odd for a sociopath.

 

Happy New Year!!

Adandoning isn’t doable. Theres too much risk, Tyrion is too unique looking.

One could also argue Pycelle’s account on Tywin being as truthful as his account on Joffy in the trial:

 "You used it all to kill the noblest child the gods ever put on this good earth.”

Happy new year to you too! 

14 minutes ago, frenin said:

Because no one is going to call him kinslayer if he just abandons the baby. If Tyrion survives a week, all he has to do is just abandon him, somewhere and let him to die. That's it.

There was nothing holding Tywin there.

 

I still argue kinslaying taboo. If it were to happen Tywin would be cursed in eyes of gods and men, shame his house etc.

14 minutes ago, frenin said:

Tywin displays emotion and empathy one way or another.

How would he have a stable relationship with his wife otherwise?

All we know is she made him laugh on occasion, which proves nothing in terms of empathy.

Granted my wording ”emotion” was clumsy, the Mountain shows lot of emotion (anger primarily) but that doesn’t mean he has functioning empathy. Affection would be a better choice of word.

Show me text where Tywin displays empathy or affection because I still think you might be treading head canon territory here.

4 hours ago, frenin said:

I very much doubt so. Their Maester was already saying that Tyrion was unlikely to live long anyway. It would not have been difficult to spread the lie of his deaths.

 

Why risk getting kinslayer stamped on you if the baby is like to die naturally? And once it gets bigger and no longer risks dying it gets much more difficult to pass it off as a not murder. Especially if you abandon him in a village (which isn’t feasible when Tyrion is uniqe-looking, it would get found out in a heartbeat if someone found a toddler dwarf with mismatched eyes by their barn one morning).

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Tywin is reserved and cold, he's certainly not someone to display his emotions. Yet that doesn't mean that he only cares for his children as pawns.

Being cold and reserved isn’t the issue here. Lots of characters have those traits but still manages to display emotion or empathy some way or another.

I take it you don’t have any text to lean on for this claim, so its head-canon maybe?

2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

He only cares about Jaime, like Cersei only cares about Joffrey. This by the way is one of the hallmarks of a narcissist, only really caring about a favorite child that most resembles the narcissist.

It doesn’t need to be a real resemblance though, could be the child that comes closest to the narcissists ideals. Joffrey is a lot dumber than Cersei but she favours him because she thinks he is mentally strong, unlike easily cowed Tommen.  Her views on mental fitness or self asteem being pretty skewed, just like Tywin placing a lot of pride in Jaimes skill at arms, even though Tywin himself never join any actual fighting as lord of casterly rock and despises the fact that Jaime is a KG.

28 minutes ago, frenin said:

He doesn't need to kill him. He just needs to abandon him in barn or something, how well do you think a dwarf like Tyrion would've fared growing among peasants??

 

I don't think that's true, they are not cuddling like the Starks but that doesn't mean he feels nothing towards them.

If Tyrion disapeared people would likely wonder and gossip. 
 

I can’t think of any display of affection, kindness or love ever displayed by Tywin towards his kids. Only thing is what I wrote earlier about ”they have my son”. Do you have any text to support? 

@frenin

Hard disagree. Tyrion got to live thanks to the kinslaying taboo. Tywin has no emotion towards his children, they are just his pawns or instruments.

Closest to any emotion towards them is the ”they have my son”-outburst and one could argue the emphasis could just as well be on the word ”my” as on ”son”.

On 12/28/2020 at 3:44 PM, frenin said:

I very much doubt she was raised by Tywin,  Her mother was alive till she was 12 and after that she saw her father at times.

Sure, like all noble children in the story she was mainly raised by servants. But it is clear that it is Tywin she models herself after. Cersei never thinks about her mother but Tywin pop up many times every Cersei-chapter. We learn more about Joanna Lannister from Pycelles written account in WoIaF than we do from any of her childrens thoughts or conversations.

On 12/28/2020 at 12:54 PM, Arthur Peres said:

Let's see what makes a psycho then:

Psychopathy is characterized by diagnostic features such as superficial charm, high intelligence, poor judgment and failure to learn from experience, pathological egocentricity and incapacity for love, lack of remorse or shame, impulsivity, grandiose sense of self-worth, pathological lying, manipulative behavior, poor self-control, promiscuous sexual behavior, juvenile delinquency, and criminal versatility, among others

source: https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/hidden-suffering-psychopath

Cersei checks on most, if not everything that is listed there.

Firstly psychopathy isn’t an existing condition - it is called anti social personality disorder, or in children callous unemotional traits. Look it up on wikipedia. Feeling bad/having empathy does rule it out.

I agree Cersei checks a lot but there are other disorders that might fit better like narcisistic personality disorder.

18 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Cersei is a full blow psychopath without any limits, Robert is just a massive jerk, that drinks and gets agressive.

 

Nope. If she had been she wouldn't have felt nauseus/soiled after seeing Qyburn at work. You can be cruel and not a psychpath. Feeling bad about shit rules it out.

To the Op:  Granted Robert isn't as cruel as Cersei but his leniency and pig-headed-ostrich-behaviours causes nasty situations too. It's like he is a shit person trying to be as good as Jon Arryn tried to raise him, while Cersei was raised by Tywin who wouldn't know empathy if it slapped him in the face.