Evolett

The bat-like deity has materialised quite unexpectedly! While listening to the Jaehaerys chapter in Fire and Blood, I came across this concerning Rego Draz, Jaehaerys' master of coin: There's no further mention of this goddess but she puts me in mind of the Venus of Willendorf, also small, and other "Venus figurines" found to be extremely ancient in the real world. With her human body and bat's head, she's also another chimeric figure. It's possible that the next line in which Rego Draz is described as a "mongrel" hints at her origins: Perhaps the name Rego Draz is also a clue, being reminiscent of the Valyrian inspired "Rhaego" and the Ghiscari-sounding "Draz," and could be a nod at proto Valyrian and proto Andal roots. Being great with child and having swollen breasts suggests a fertility or mother goddess while the bat head suggests she was also a chthonic deity, the two often associated in mythology, for example, Persephone. Maybe the Harpy of Ghis evolved from this goddess? The Harpy of Ghis also has this mother goddess symbolism though the water gushing from her heavy breasts is yellow and sulfurous, like milk gone bad. And of course she has the bat / dragon wings. Perhaps she is a fertility goddess grown vengful, bearing a greater resemblance to the actual harpies of myth than a nurturing earth goddess. Rego Draz himself is known as the "Lord of Air," which alludes to having mastered flight. Rego Draz was a very able master of coin and is remembered for the various taxes he imposed to finance Jaehaerys' two pet projects - improving King's Landing and building the Dragon Pit at KL. He was hated by the people for these taxes which they no doubt perceived as punishing. Now, axes are not at all mentioned in connection with Rego but there is probably a pun on axes and taxes. And there is also this element of "punishment" attached, which I see as relevant to the axe (and to the harpy) in general. This is also holds true for the bat: Mad Danelle uses giant bats to capture bad children who are punished by being cooked and eaten. As an emblem of slavery, the Ghiscari Harpy snatches people and feeds them to the slave machine. And there is probably a connection between the goddess-related "labrys," female double-headed axes, the female driven agents of punishment such as Danelle's bats, the Harpy, Lady Lu, and I concede ... the dragons. Then, it makes sense for Novorshi slave soldiers "marry" their double-bladed axes (a representation of the goddess) and have her branded onto their chests. Not the arm or the face, nor the leg, but the chest (breast). Rego Draz and Ilyrio Mopatis have similar backgrounds, both merchants from Pentos, evolving from rags to riches, hold high office. Ilyrio is obese while Rego is stout. Both wear sumptuous clothing and wear jewelry, especially rings - Rego wore rings set with rubies. This makes me wonder if Rego represents the evolution of the bat goddess into the dragon or a branching of the religion represented by the idol into yet another faith, that of fiery R'hllor. Interestingly, Rego has has the cutting off of fingers motif: ETA - Tyrion thinks one could live comfortably off Ilyrio's rings but would have cut his fingers off with a cleaver to obtain them. Perhaps this ties back to the Venus of Willendorf figurine motif - they never have feet - and to our black Qohorik goat, Vargo whose trademark torture was cutting off the hands and feet of his victims.

This is actually one of the reasons I think Bran the Builder literally was a builder and architect. Constructing a building on an unleveled surface is more difficult and challenging compared to building on a level surface. There are all kinds of considerations, all requiring knowledge exceeding that necessary for building on levelled ground, and even more so when constructing a building above a cave. It requires customized solutions to accommodate the uneven terrain and risks posed by the cave system below. Foundation design becomes more complex when building on uneven ground. It's important to get this right because the foundation provides support and stability to buildings above. Drainage within the castle compound becomes an issue on unlevelled ground as well. Either a drainage system is installed or the buildings are organised such that water can drain out of courtyards and open spaces. With cave systems below there is a potential for the development of sinkhholes as well as ground collapse or structural damage if the building is not adequately supported. In the case of Winterfell, it was probably better not to level the ground above the cave, since removing a considerable amount of topsoil would reduce the amount of depth needed for a foundation and potentially lead to structural instability of both cave and building. There is also the water piped from the hot springs into the castle to consider. Quite a feat of engineering and one we do not see elsewhere in Westeros (at least not to my knowledge). Modern piping systems involve a network of pipes, pumps and pressure regulators, to ensure adequate water supply and pressure at various levels of the building. Besides the pipes which are possibly made of copper, it's doubtful Winterfell has any of these features. But water flow in pipes is dependent on differences in pressure within the system and this can occur naturally because the grounds are uneven in height. Bran may have learned to incoporate magical wards into buildings from the CotF but I think his skill at building went beyond that. Bran really was a builder in my opinion, along with his ancestors and descendants up to a certain point. Winterfell shows many features of advanced level contruction. Had he just built without any expertise, Wintefell would not be heated by hot springs and would have collapsed long ago.

This thread seems to have completely veered off-topic .... perhaps we can get back on track. That’s the essence of the matter. The Andals and Rhoynar are presented as immigrants with a collective identity, culture and religion. In contrast, “First Men” is a catch-all term suggesting heterogenous ethnic groups originating from different locations, cultures and civilizations, coming to Westeros with differing religious beliefs as well. Having lived in isolation for so long, the Freefolk probably provide a snapshot of what First Men society was like. This would include diversity within the population itself (Thenns, Hornfoots, Walrus-Men, cave dwellers etc), traditions, culture, core principles, approaches to governance and leadership, marriage, the role of women in society, etc. Distinguishing them from southerners is their refusal to “kneel” to an overlord or king, the right to engage in debate and have their voices heard and the fact that a man must prove himself to woman and her family for a marriage to occur. The equally isolated Mountain Clans of the Moon adhere to similar traditions, suggesting altogether this may have been the way many sections of society functioned at the time of the FM. However, even in Freefolk society, there are exceptions to the rule. Craster is lord of his own compound, marries his daughters and does not mix with the rest. The Thenns are led by a Magnar (meaning “lord”), who is considered more a god than a man by his people. Because they have laws and lords, some consider the Thenns more sophisticated than other free folk and closer to the people south of the Wall. The Thenns are also the only ones to actually engage in smithing beyond the Wall. It's likely this frozen in time snapshot of the Freefolk can be applied to the FM in general, at least during the first centuries after their arrival. Noteworthy in this mix is that some of these groups came from technologically more advanced societies. The Daynes and Garth belong in this group. The Daynes because they forged a formidable sword from a material unknown to man, the “fallen star,” at a time when the FM were still working with bronze, and Garth because he obviously came to Westeros already well versed in the art of agriculture, teaching it to the FM. I think the ancestors of the Starks belong in this group of the technologically advanced as well. Bran being a builder suggests it. In the past, it was common for sons to take up the occupation of their fathers, to continue the family business and source of income, though in this case it’s more likely the expertise originated in the female ancestral line (irritatingly, no mention is made of the women Garth sired his famous brood on, except for the giantess who was mother to Jon the Oak. As a leader of men, it makes sense for Garth to have chosen women from sections of society capable of contributing to his cause or vision of the future). Whatever the case, that the art of building passed down generations is suggested in the text: Along with the Wall, Storm’s End is certainly testament to Brandon the Builder’s expertise: Andal writers doubt that round towers could have been erected by FM but we see more evidence of the ancient Stark’s skill at stone masonry in the crypts of Winterfell – the stone statues of the Kings going back thousands of years. Winterfell also boasts carved stone gargoyles so weathered by time they are barely recognizable now, definitely ancient and otherwise no where to be found except on Dragonstone, where they are associated with the advanced civilization of the Valyrians. There are also the iron swords placed on the laps of the Kings of Winter, some so ancient they’ve rusted away, also suggesting iron was forged at Winterfell long before the Andals came. So, if I had to take a guess at ancient Stark ancestry, the Rhoynar / proto-Rhoynar would be my choice. According to tWoiaF, the Rhoynish civilization was as storied and ancient as the Old Empire of Ghis. They appear to have been way ahead of the FM in many respects, notably for beautiful and advanced architecture and iron-working. And their water witches could make "deserts bloom", a reminder of Garth, the agricultual "god." The name “Stark” has so many synonyms that can be used to describe stone, - “rigid,” “hard,” “rugged,” “stern” and “strong,” - fitting for a family (former) builders.

Certainly a possibility that makes more sense than a "curse."

Perhaps the protection which the Targaryens purportedly had from infectious disease didn't come directly from their bloodline, but was a side-effect of their bond with their dragons. Judging by Daenerys' dragon dream after her initial weeks with the Khalasaar, it seems likely that dragons can confer vitality on their human counterparts. Dany is sick and sore, even thinking of killing herself. Then she has a dream featuring a dragon: This may only be a dream but dragon cures her off her aches and pains. Not only that, it strengthens her resolve and increases her confidence markedly. It is after this that she stands up to Viserys the first time. Also, in a parallel to the wolves "singing" to Bran, the dream dragon sings to Dany. From the bits of information given, close proximity to the dragon appears to be necessary (Dany had the eggs in her tent).

You're welcome! Well, this is why I brought up greyscale in the dialogue. It's the one in-world disease that turns the living into "stone." We gain some more indepth insights into greyscale through Tyrion's POV: It pretty clear here that the skin does not turn to stone, rather it resembles stone. The flesh also grows cold which is realistic, as calcified flesh would suffer from circulatory disorders or be cut off from the circulatory system. Greyscale sounds like a particularly virulent type of cancer that first affects the skin, causing a proliferation and mineralisation of cells and eventually enrcroaching inward to affect muscles and organs as well. The idea that greyscale could affect dragon eggs may seem ludicrous at first but on closer examination of the information we have, albeit given to us through legend and largely devoid of scientific reasoning, I think it's a distinct posibility. The history of the Rhoynar tells us greyscale resulted from a curse called down by Garin the Great against their Valyrian aggressors. This may or may not have been the origin of the disease, however, in relation to dragon eggs, the fact that the curse / disease is directed against the Valyrians may be a clue. In the case of the Elissa Farrman theory, it also seems unlikely that true fossilization could have taken place in such a short time. Even Illyrio's claim of Dany's eggs coming from Asshai and the eons having turned them to stone is not sound from that perspective. Fossilized eggs should not retain their colour. We also learn about three different variants of greyscale: - the type that affects children which disfigures them but is curable. Said by Val to "sleep" only to reawaken later. - the mortal variant that affects adults, starting off in fingers and toes and continuing to engulf the whole body after a number of years. - the virluent form, the grey plague, an epidemic, swift and fatal Neither the Pale Mare, Spring Sickness, Shivers or other diseases are as versatile as greyscale. We have three forms that behave differently. If I remember correctly, the grey plague is suspected to have been carried ashore by rats, meaning we even have an intermediate host here. In contrast, the other forms of greyscale are thought to be caused by cold weather, foul fogs and foul humours (all appropriate in respect of the time period the story is set in). In Westeros, Shireen contracted greyscale in the cradle on Dragonstone. There was another case on the Iron Islands. Both are "stoney" places with climates not exactly noted for great holiday weather. The point is, this disease is highly adaptable. So we can speculate: Did Garin's curse extend to dragon eggs? The Rhoynar would never recover from the onslaught and would never have prevailed against the Valyrians as long as the latter had dragons. Targeting dragon eggs before they even hatch seems like a sensible thing to do but I also realize this would only work on eggs taken out of their natural volcanic environment. Assuming GRRM has drawn on biologic realities, warmth is an issue for all reptiles. Eggs are buried in the ground to maintain temperature. On Dragonstone, dragon eggs are kept in the volcanic hatcheries or placed in a child's cradle, the child providing warmth. Daenerys takes alternating eggs to bed where they benefit from the warmth of her body. It's interesting that children recover from the disease. Dragon eggs are children even before they hatch and Dany's "children" do "recover" and hatch. When Tyrion travels through the Sorrows (a place rife with greyscale), we also learn about the Shrouded Lord who bestows the disease on individuals. He is said to have been a statue (carved of stone) brought to life by the kiss of a grey woman. Like the stone dragon eggs, this stone statue comes back to life. Related to this is Val's assertion that greyscale "wakes" again later in children who have suffered it before. How do dragon embryos manage to stay viable though? Perhaps the eggshell alone is affected by the calcification process, leaving the embryo untouched. Birds and reptiles usually find their own way out of their shells. A hard calcified shell could pose a serious hinderance to hatching for a baby dragon. We recall the fire took care of the cracking of the stone eggs. It could be that rather than dying, the embryo is preserved in a state of indefinite dormancy, akin to the seeds of many plants. Dragonseeds? And so as not to demystify the whole process, perhaps a magical ritual is essential to end that state of dormancy and reignite the spark of life that never completely died out.

Yes, but this isn't something the reader is readily conscious of. To most readers and in-world characters, an axe is just an axe, an instrument for chopping wood, cutting down trees or for use as a weapon of war. It's only when the author spells it out, as in the "Hammer of Justice," that we begin to think in terms of other concepts and possible meanings removed from the pure visual imagery as in "a double-bladed axe resembles bat or dragon wings." Not that there aren't valid examples of the latter. But when a boar appears we don't associate it with something tangible. We do notice that its appearance is often followed by a death and/or a change in regime. So I still hesitate to associate axes soley with dragon wings or dragons. This may fit in sometimes but certainly not in all cases. I can see where you @Seams, @Sandy Clegg are coming from but I feel its not enough. There are just too many mentions of this weapon in varying contexts to assign it as pertaining to dragons or bats. The association does not explain why the Andals adopted the axe as a symbol nor why one is prominently placed in the prologue to the whole series. I ask myself how this fits in with Mormont's "Answered Prayer," Hotah's ash-and-iron wife, Lady Lu, Shagga, Mad Axe, Lady Dustin, Tyrion, Victarion and other prominent mentions of axes and axe holders. An overriding theme of punishment, retribution, justice or vengeance is noticable in most of these cases and good arguments can be brought forth as evidence. Dragons are not excluded. They may or may not be involved. With foreshadowing I assume you mean who is riding which dragon, which faction they might end up with, which one(s) will bite the dust, whose soul goes into which dragon etc? Or might there be another dragon out there? A wild one from the past perhaps? We've discussed apples in the recent past. The author might use something closer to dragons than axes such as the obsidian glass candles whose fire must also be "woken from stone." There are four of them, three black and one green (the odd one out) so that might be an option. The various sphynxes may offer clues. Certain characters - how about Obara, Tyene and Nym, with Sarella as an outlier?

Okay, then as a thought experiment, let's interview Grand Maester Benifer on the matter. He is a learned man who served both Maegor and Jaehaerys, probably saw and handled dragon eggs and has made a statement about them turning to stone. Moon Man: Thank you for granting us this audience, Grand Maester. The King has honoured Lady Evolett and I with the task of hunting down the treacherous Elissa Farrman and finding out as much about the whereabouts of the stolen dragon eggs as we can. Our entire company is determined to see this through. Grand Maester, perhaps you would kindly tell us more about dragon eggs. Grand Maester: Dragon eggs are shaped like a bird's egg, only much larger. You would need both hands to pick one up. They can come in all kinds of rich colours, usually two different colours but sometimes three. Often one of these colours is metallic -- gold, silver or bronze. Patterns such as swirls and whorls of colour are not uncommon. Lady Evolett: They must be very beautiful! I would love to see one. Grand Maester: Oh yes, they are. The eggs are covered in tiny scales that shimmer in the sunlight, almost as though they've been polished to a high sheen. They look like large precious jewels. The colour of the hatched dragon matches that of the eggshell. Moon Man: Grand Maester, do the colours of a dragon egg change when it turns to stone? Grand Maester: the colours do deepen and appear to shine more brightly. After a long time, they look even more like jewels. The colours themselves do not change though. But of course the weight changes quite a bit. Stone eggs are much heavier than fresh dragon eggs. Moon Man: Forgive me for asking, but how do we tell the difference between a fresh egg and an egg that has turned to stone? We have neither seen nor handled any and so have no idea what to look for. Grand Maester: True true. The colours do not help, even if they do burn more brightly. Yet there are signs that even one who has never seen an egg before can look for. - The shells of dragon eggs are unlike bird eggs. Instead the shells are rather soft and leathery, easily felt. In this way they resemble the eggs of some snakes, lizards and sea turtles. This does not mean they aren't tough or that they break easily. Stone eggs feel as hard as stone. You couldn't dent the surface with a finger for instance, though this is possible with fresh eggs. - The scales of fresh eggs are tiny, very fine and delicate. As the egg turns to stone, the scales thicken until they form a definite hard ridged rim. This you can see and feel. - And finally there is warmth. A normal fresh egg will be warm to the touch. The heat seems to keep the eggs alive which is why they are left in the hatcheries under the Dragonmont volcano on Dragonstone. A stone egg of course feels cold. I believe that eggs taken away from the island and kept at another location for a length of time will not hatch at all, but soon turn to stone. Lady Evolett: Soft leathery eggs, tiny delicate scales and warmth for normal eggs; a hard stoney surface, thick rimmed scales and cold to the touch for eggs that have turned to stone. This is very helpful, Grand Maester. Grand Maester: I'm am happy to be of service to the King's cause. Perhaps I can arrange a visit to Dragonstone so you can see and handle these eggs for yourself. Moon Man: that is most kind of you. We gladly accept this offer. Tell me, Maester, do you know what causes dragon eggs to turn to stone or why that might happen so quickly? I am no scholar but have heard of the stone bones of very ancient creatures from the distant past. Surely, dragon eggs would require a thousand years to turn to stone? Grand Maester: you pose a good question. At the Citadel, we believe dragon eggs require warmth to survive. Withhold the heat for too long and the eggs begin to harden and eventually turn to stone. Why this happens is unclear. Maesters who have earned a Valyrian Steel link suspect the involvement of magic, that the volcano or Dragonstone may be the centre of some magical force, but if this is so, stone eggs found on Dragonstone itself belie this theory. No one can say. Lady Evolett: could it be that eggs not kept in the heat become sick? Humans exposed to the cold for too long will catch a cold and run a fever. Could dragon eggs acutally be afflicted by greyscale? Grand Maester: now that's an interesting thought and not one the Citadel has examined. Hardly possible because the King would not hand over a dragon egg for examination. But there might be something to this idea .... the lack of heat ... exposed to the cold .... dragons would be more sensitive to the cold, I guess. There is a volcano on Dragonstone but the weather is not always clement. It does get cold, windy and rainy. The thick scaling of the stone eggs .... An idea worth thinking about. Moon Man: Thank you for your time and the knowledge shared, most valuable to our quest. We shall make every effort to fulfill the King's commands. Note: this is a mixture of fact, fiction and speculation. With the exception of stating that dragon eggs far removed from Dragonstone turn to stone, Grand Maester Benifer never uttered these words!

I guess you're looking for proof that fresh viable dragon eggs differ markedly from eggs turned to stone. From what I recall, GRRM mainly describes the colouring and scaling. Before Dany is told that the eons have turned the eggs to stone, she expects the texture of fine porcelain, delicate enamel, or even blown glass but she has had no prior experience with dragon eggs though she might have had some input from Viserys on the matter. As to cracking a fresh one and frying it, that would depend on if they are laid with a fully developed dragon inside or if the laid egg starts off with a yolk and requires incubation in the heat of Dragonstone to further develop prior to actual hatching. I would expect a stone egg to be heavier than a fresh one. One assumption I can make is the expectation that fresh eggs might be warm to the touch. They are evidently laid and kept warm in the hatcheries situated inside the volcano at Dragonstone. We also read that dragons are "fire made flesh" and we have examples of dragons disliking rain and snow. This may be a further indication that warmth is essential to the survival of the delicate egg stage and if it is kept away from heat for too long, it may lose its viability - and as we are informed, eventually turn to stone in the absence of a suitable environment. There is an example of eggs being taken to Casterly Rock for a while and not hatching until returned to Dragonstone. You'll find a brief summary on dragon eggs here. Feel free to check out "The World of Ice and Fire" and "Fire and Blood" for any additional info on look and feel. Most descriptions of dragon eggs can be found there.

I'm not inclined to think of Quentyn's dying smile as a scream, but then that's left to our own differing imaginations. The smile or smiler is a thing though. Having planted the seed much earlier, GRRM picks it up again in aDwD, first when Stannis tries to convince Jon to take up his offer to become Lord of Winterfell: The choice is between Massey (the smiler) and Horpe (the slayer) both of whom he's considering as potential candidates to fill the position. Justin Massey shows interest in Asha, leading her to think he wants to marry her in order to claim her lands and rule through her. Well, one "smiler," Theon, has already failed where Winterfell is concerned. In the same book, we have Theon twice thinking about the events at Winterfell including his burning horse, Smiler: And earlier in aCoK, as Ramsay's treachery became absolutely clear: Sometimes a smilie is just a smile but these personified smiles seem important to me, as does Quentyn's somewhat displaced death smile, especially since he burns as Quentyn does. I'm not so much thinking of dying as in death, as I am of dying as in changing the colour of cloth (or beards or hair). The latter appears to be a motif unto itself, particularly in respect of Braavos and Tyrosh. When Daario enters into Dany's service, his trident beard is dyed blue and he changes the colour at some point. "Dying" as in colouring is specific and as a metaphor for merging souls is interesting to me. I've tried to expand on this with the Lommy / Hotpie / Arya scenario above.

@Frey family reunion has provided many sources regarding dragon eggs turning to stone. I don't think we have reason to doubt that. That heat is needed to keep them viable also makes sense. One could argue that fossilization normally takes thousands of years in the real world and as such, eggs laid on Dragonstone a couple of hundred years ago can't possibly fit this timeline. We however have stone eggs at Dragonstone witnessed by Targs themselves, eggs that are far from ancient. The why of it is as mysterious as weirwoods turning into stone instead of simply rotting away. We do not know. Both are magical in nature. There would hardly be a point to the prophecy recited so often by Melisandre of Azor Ahai returning to "wake dragons from stone" if there were nothing to it at all. That Dany's eggs are a special case is true: I think what makes the stone eggs special is their lineage. We can perhaps agree on the necessity of a spiritual kindred connection between the hatcher and the eggs. Azor Ahai lived thousands of years ago, his lineage scattered far and wide in his descendants over the millenia. For the stone eggs to become viable again and to actually hatch, Azor Ahai needed to be "reborn," that is, his bloodline revived in a descendant "born of salt and smoke" (the two relevant bloodlines). This special descendant (most think Dany, but I'd argue it was Rhaego) then "wakes" the spark of life in the stone eggs, making them ready for hatching through an appropriate magical ritual.

Part II How do we know for sure which of the two dragons end up as a home for Quentyn? In general Rhaegal seems to be the dragon in need of taming. Rhaegal fired Quentyn and as Barristan notes: Rhaegal is also named after Rhaegar and thus in keeping with the princely motif - a prince for the dragon named after a prince. Barristan also raises the question as to whether the dragons will know one side from another when the war gets underway: From a logical point of view, it makes sense for at least one of the two dragons to "know" which side to defend and in the absence of Drogon, Rhaegal inhabited by Quentyn would surely be in the know. There is also this as a possible clue: ‘The sacrifice’ is destined for a fiery end … a pyre .. but will it be the green or the white? So, George is starting the chapter with heavy imagery of Rhaegal (green) v Viserion (white). We can actually see why he may have not wanted it to come straight after Quentyn’s chapter as it would have just been too on-the-nose, even for the subtle technique of chapter overlaps. Well, there’s my justification anyway. Agreed. I would go for the green as in Rhaegal. There is the Lommy Greenhands dyer's apprentice merging allusion and then the bit I have saved for last which convinces me that Quentyn is now firmly installed in Rhaegal. This may be controversial but consider it: This sentence is somewhat ambiguously written. The fat woman bedecked with glowing orange jewels hulking in the gloom could be referring to Rhaegal or to the pyramid of Yherizan. The association I made on my first couple of reads was always Rhaegal. In either case, it's an odd description conjuring up a vision in one's mind's eye of a green dragon with bronze markings that glow orange in the rising sun of the dawn. Next, Barristan's thoughts go to the dragons, none of which are in sight and to the dawn - the sun is about to rise, colouring the horizon red: So - dragons not in sight but the sun (sigil of House Martell) is soon to appear (dawn / Dorne). The sun imagery is bloody, perhaps a nod at the Martell spear that pierces the red Rhoynish sun in the sigil. But back to the fat woman bedecked in glowing orange jewels. What could this allude to? How about a green frog? Quentyn is "Frog" and we have that quote from Barristan about Dorne sending Daenerys "mud," both Frog and mud potentially linking Quentyn to the crannogmen. In an important Bran chapter, aSoS, Bran I, we learn more about skinchanging and about Meera catching frogs for dinner: Is it significant that eating fat green frogs turns certain parts of you green? A symbolic froggy soul turning Rhaegal green? And the frogs are caught by Meera using her famous net. Might this line up with Rhaegal being caught with the aid of a net in Meereen (Viserion was led into the pit by Daenerys): Rhaegal certainly was a handful compared to Viserion. In the aSoS Bran I chapter, prior to Meera arriving with the fat green frogs, Bran is woken out of skinchanging Summer. He's been away for too long and is lectured by Jojen on the dangers of staying too long in his wolf. He thinks of himself as a "Prince of the Green" and as the Bran the Broken, Prince of Winterfell. Check out the chapter for yourself. I'm thinking it's a pretty good counterfoil to Quentyn in Rhaegal. And now for some fun: a quick check on the net revealed there are indeed green tree frogs that look like they are bedecked with orange jewels in real life: https://kids.nationalgeographic.com/animals/amphibians/facts/red-eyed-tree-frog https://www.vecteezy.com/photo/1131538-beautiful-orange-thighed-green-treefrog-on-a-leaf

To be honest, though I've often asked myself why GRRM would name a chapter in which a failed dragontamer dies "The Dragontamer," it never occurred to me that "dragontamer" could be a clue to the dragontamer inside - the human soul that presumably "softens up" the beast for riding and binding to the internal spirit's kin. I wasn't half-way through the OP when I had a Geistesblitz which I'm sure has substance. I believe George has shown us Quentyn transformed in a clever, funny, not so subtle but spendid way - really for all the world to see. More on that later in this the next post. This is something I've also noticed, not so much when reading the books, more so when I listen to the audiobooks. I've found listening to the books tends to reveal aspects and nuances that remain hidden to me in the text and I often ask myself how I could have missed this and that after reading a chapter so many times over. The continuous verbal narration really lends itself to picking up these chapter overlaps, for me at least. As such, I can relate to and find meaning in many of the examples you site here, in turn inspiring further thought on some of what you've highlighted. At the very least, there's a fair amount of foreshadowing of his death all the way from Adventure "stinks" to the hour of the ghost. First off, a bit of wordplay: I love this: It opens up possibilities elsewhere as well. I'm thinking here of the dying (colouring) motif that's been quite a puzzle to me. Then there is this which I can get on board with. However, leaving us to fill in the blank here with "Crisp" in relation to being burnt by a dragon may be a direct link to Barristan's answer .. .. "Quentyn the Wise," he suggested. And hoped that it was true. What was that about "wise old dragons living to be a 1000 years?" In theory, Quentyn would enjoy a much longer life within a dragon, provided it survives a war. He is also the kind of person that might have developed into a wise leader of men. Dragons come dear, and double does not pay for dragons. Quentyn is about to offer triple, and is then cut off. Triple - a ‘three heads’ reference? My first association here was "double > tripple > five times (pentos)." But perhaps the real meaning comes through when we focus on Pentos. So in relation to this theory, Pentos becomes "pent-up." Quentyn pays the debt owed by the Tattered Prince by agreeing to be pent up (in a dragon). Poor Quentyn does have a history of being used to pay a blood debt incurred by someone else! On a side note, I personally think the "promised prince" is an intended sacrifice, someone of a lineage long extinct but necessary to pay a blood debt owed another party. I think the background of the Tattered Prince tells part of this story, of a person destined to be sacrificed but who shirked this responsibility in the distant past. The idea of the promised prince as an absconded sacrifice also ties into the motif of the exile as well as that of the elusive "Stranger" who is from far places. The debt however is still owed. But that's another topic. Onto the next line in the Griffin Reborn: Adding to the notion of rebirth here are the archers: He sent the archers in first. Arch => Char. The first stage in the rebirth process is the charring (burning) and we even have JonCon growing wiser in exile. Well, Quentyn might well grow wise while his soul is exiled in the dragon. We can take this further - like the dragon eggs that turned to stone, JonCon, having contracted greyscale is going that same route. To continue with the wordplay regarding Frog and his two main companions: Frog > Arch > Drink Frog > Char > Kindr(ed) Theon, the Smile, cautious cravens, Lommy Greenhands, Hotpie and Ghosts I'm seeing so many parallels and connections here that putting them down is not that easy a task so bear with me. As I mentioned in the previous thread, there are a number of similarities between Theon and Quentyn. Both are princes who pay for a relative's transgressions by being sent off as hostages to another family. Both are educated by the foster families, treated well and regard at least one foster brother as a real brother and friend. Both are fostered in tree-associated families, Quentyn with the Yronwoods and Theon with the Starks (weirwoods). Perhaps also relevant, in the very first chapter, Theon hands ice to Ned and Gared is executed on an ironwood block. On another note, we know weirwoods are associated with greenseers (and greenseer spirits). Could it be the ironwoods are linked to spirits destined to be dragon-spirits? Kind of makes sense especially in view of the iron that is also said to be what dragon bones are primarily composed of. Theon declares himself Prince of Winterfell and later becomes a true Prince of the Iron Islands (and the North) when his father declares himself King. Theon is also turned into a shadow of his former self and becomes a "Ghost in Winterfell" able to hear and speak to the weirwood, to his foster-kin Bran. Quentyn's development is analagous to this, the difference being a union with the dragon-kin rather than the tree. The Smile is something Theon was noted for. Almost every character comments about this regarding Theon. He even names his unruly black stallion "Smiler." In death, Quentyn smiles (what's he so happy about? is a question people ask when thinking for the former Theon.) In the puns and wordplay thread, I proposed "smile" might be an anagram of "millers." Why is this important? Because it leads us to "ghosts." Theon had the miller's sons killed in place of Bran and Rickon and these ghosts haunt him: The miller's vocation is to grind grain into flour and flour has been used by the author to disguise or dress up Jon as a ghost in the Winterfell crypts. This ghostly association also applies to Ramsay whose mother was a miller's wife, noted by Theon himself: The Smiler / smile is an allusion to ghosts and now I am thinking specifically to ghosts or souls released by burning = think Theon's black horse "Smiler" that burned to death at Winterfell. Hot Pie Having explained the miller - smiler - flour - ghost wordplay and symbolism, let's have a look at how Hotpie fits into this. Arya, Hotpie, Gendry and Lommy Greenhands (the dyer's apprentice) journey through the Riverlands together. Hotpie is a baker and expert at handling flour which he kneads just right to bake excellent bread. Bread, of course must be baked in a heated oven so Hotpie could also be hinting at hot pyre, together giving Hotpie symbolism pertaining to burning the dead / living and the handling of released souls (the flour). So it's interesting that he is in the company of Lommy Greenhands who has green hands because he is a dyer's apprentice - if the dying and merging wordplay is a thing. I think it is. Lommy Greenhands reminds us of Garth Greenhand (also said in some tales to be green) and though never mentioned to be a greenseer and therefore one who can transfer his spirits into a tree, this is likely on account of the tales of the "green men" guarding the Isle of Faces). We also have the "ghost" present in this foursome - Arya who becomes a Ghost in Harrenhal, a place burned by dragonfire by Aegon the Conqueror! Bringing us back to the burnt Quentyn whose name which features the Q is reminiscent of Ironborn names. The one difference I see here is Gendry. On the one hand I think as a smith, he represents the forging process but in contrast to Quentyn's companion Gerris Drinkwater, Gendry is "dry." Lommy Greenhands also seems a loose parallel to Quentyn when we consider this: Quentin the Quail .. the Cautious .. the Craven. Lommy, we recall was never bold. He was all for yielding. ------ I've tried to be as concise as possible but this post is getting rather long. More in the next post, Part II.

Most in the fandom agree that Khal Drogo's death paid for Drogon's life and / or that his soul found it's way into the dragon, whether by shadowbinding or some other means. We need to look to Drogo for a possible answer to this question and indeed, the idea that a dragon may contain three minds or souls is hinted at in the text and here I mean the Khal's bloodriders: The term "bloodrider" is very suggestive of something way more than an external attachment. The three bloodriders share a single life with the Khal, they are blood of his blood, forming one unit. It's almost as though they literally share his blood and body, like a soul or foreign conciousness would. They die with him when the time comes and continue to ride with him in the night lands, when their souls have been released from their bodies. This sharing of blood extends to the material world as well, adding to the imagery: Then, in a parallel to dragonriders who only ever ride the one dragon bonded to them, a Khal's mount, his horse, is his own and his alone. When Dany speaks of Drogo's bloodrider Cohollo we learn he had been bound to Drogo at birth, .. recalling dragon eggs placed in the cradle of new born Targaryen children for the purpose of bonding. I think the information we have on bloodriders is the closest parallel to the idea of three separate souls or minds inhabiting a single dragon. I'm not sure if this is a necessity or even why it must be so if it is. I can think of reasons, purely speculative. I doubt Mirri intended for the eggs to hatch but agree her ritual included shadowbinding. Mirri more or less admits using Rhaego to pay for Drogo's life - the unborn baby's life as the price for binding Drogo's soul to his body, to prevent his spirit from departing entirely, meaning his death. The presence of the shadow of a burning man and a shadow wolf dancing in the tent are likely clues to the shadowbinding itself: From Mel, we know burning releases the soul from the sacrificed and from the undead. Spiritual fire also casts a skinchanger out of the animal he's inhabiting. The wolf is strongly associated with skinchanging or the migration of souls, so my guess it that these shadow figures hint at a soul-transfer or soul-binding scenario. But I think Mirri lost control of the ritual when Jorah carried highly pregnant Dany into the tent. Dany began having dreams involving a black dragon very early in her marriage. She could feel warmth from the eggs though no one else could. It makes me wonder if unhatched dragons are already possessed of human souls, acutally I think they are. There may be a parallel between the fossilized stone dragon eggs and weirwoods that never die but turn to stone. By the laws of nature, both weirwoods and dragon eggs should lose their viability and rot but they do not. The consiousnesses gathered in weirwoods such as the poisoned one at Raventree Hall may still be there, trapped in the tree that is slowly turning to stone. Indeed, we have this line from Maester Luwin: And even more poignant, from Leaf: So by Leaf's own wisdom, the consiousness of the CotF can also inhabit stone. Following on from that, it's possible Dany's dragon eggs were already inhabited by one or more ancient souls lying dormant for eons and that Dany's dragon dreams stem from the eggs themselves, or from Drogon's egg in particular. Mirri specifically gave orders barring everyone from the tent and I believe Dany ending up there caused the ritual to go awry, with Drogo losing his soul to the black egg instead of having it secured to his own body. Mirri may or may not have bound his soul to the egg. Perhaps Drogo was "called." Perhaps the inhabitant in the egg was weak after long years of being locked in stone, the egg's hatching being dependent on a strong and vital spirit such as Drogo's. Perhaps the process of the "second life" within a dragon is the same as what we've been told about a second life in a wolf - that the soul of the human slowly merges with that of the animal until nothing truely human is left. Maybe that is why three souls are required - not all at once, but when necesarry, for future riders to be able to maintain control of the dragon. But that's just my take on it.

Quentyn still being alive is rather improbable. I don't see the point because he's served his narrative purpose imo. On the one hand, the reader gains insights into Volantis and Yunkai. He serves as a bridge between Daenerys' story and the Tattered Prince / Windblown - there seems to be more in store for us here. His unintended release of the dragons serves to escalate matters in Meereen and drive the plot toward all out war at a time when Dany is absent, leaving decisions to Barristan Selmy. And of course failing to secure Daenerys' hand or a dragon means Dorne is more likely to end up in opposition to Dany and in bed with fAegon. Most of all, his short arc serves to remind us of the damage caused to the psyche of children who become hostages to ensure their father's good behaviour or in Quentyn's case, sent off to pay the "blood price" for a crime committed by some member of their family. Like Theon, Quentyn grows up away from his family and comes to see Anders Yronwood as a father and Cletus as a best friend and brother. He lost the latter too on this damned journey. He was also an accomplished young man, speaking several languages, knighted, well behaved and dutiful. Enchanted in his own way, a real Prince, even if Daenerys didn't think so. And because of his isolation from his trueborn family he was hardly known in Dorne. Again, like Theon, Quentyn wanted to prove himself to his father. This is the one thought that overrides all others. What a waste. Quentyn's end was tragic but sadly, I think he was simply a means to an end from the author's point of view. I can't see how he could not have suffered severe burns from Rhaegal's blast of fire. And perhaps his failure and death also serve to tell us that a few drops of dragon blood far removed may not be enough to claim a dragon. Brown Ben should watch out.

I was reading up on Hugh Hammer recently, the blacksmith's bastard (and one of the two betrayers) who claimed Vermithor during the Dance. There seems to be another prophecy that isn't often mentioned in the fandom, if at all. From the Wiki: If the soldiers at the time were aware of this prophecy at the time of the Dance, perhaps Rhaegar was too. Perhaps this is what he read in his scrolls, prompting him to train as a warrior. In hindsight, the prophecy is an obvious reference to the Battle of the Trident. Rhaegar was a little older than Robert and made this decision during late childhood, thinking it might apply to him. Maybe he even put things together when he was older, at a time when Robert was already known for his great strength and hammer; there were not that many hammer wielders out there.

Anytime I read this, I'm reminded of Mad Axe out of Old Nan's tales of the Nightfort: Moqorro's vision with its strings and tentacles that make Victarion dance suggests Vicatrion is being controlled by another entity, in this case most likely by Euron. In any case that passage rhymes with Mad Axe who prowls the Nightfort with his axe dripping blood after butchering his brothers at the Nightfort. Seeing as several supernatural sounding events occurred at the Nightfort and that Night's King practiced sorcery, it wouldn't surprise me if Mad Axe was a victim of possession by a skinchanger and driven to murder his comrades. That would loosely parallel Moqorro's vision of Victarion dancing on the strings of another here. I'm still in two minds on whether axes represent dragon wings or heads or both. Yes, we see flying axes and the double-axe is wing-shaped but perhaps we are looking for something not so obvious. In ancient times the labrys was a representation of sky and weather gods and axes in general were wielded by gods who control the weather: In a nutshell, the axe is very much a representation of the storm. Being associated with lightning, the labrys was also a symbol of celestial illumination. Perhaps this is the origin of the two symbols of the Andals (Axe and Seven-Pointed-Star). Axes have also historically been used as an executioner's weapon, to deliver justice, especially during the middle ages and renaissance. Returning to the narrative, in the World Book we have this statement from maester Evlyn: Here, doubt is cast on the carvings being axes, instead this maester sees them as hammers. My guess is we are supposed to view these two weapons in a similar light. We do have a "Hammer of Justice" in the story and Robert's smashing of Rhaegar with his mighty war hammer was most certainly seen as an act of justice (or vengeance) by him and perhaps others. So real world axes and asoiaf hammers are both associated with justice. This fits well with the axe and hammer being symbols of storm because the mythological thunderbolt has always been regarded as a divine punishment from the gods. So, I think this is the essence of the axe - a symbol of justice or retribution, more likely the latter, and many of the varying contexts in which they appear in the story do reflect this interpretation. Tyrion first acquires an axe after being arrested by Catelyn for a crime he did not commit. Perhaps the axe helps him to attain justice. He'll be wrongly accused of murdering Joffery and swear vengeance against his family. Tyrion heads into battle with his Mountain men wielding a battle-axe. He has armed them, Shagga famously carrying three axes, and has previously promised them the Vale with an ulteror motive in mind - revenge against Lysa Arryn who almost succeeded in making him fly out the Moon Door. It's a similar theme with Chett. He desires revenge because Sam "took" his cushy job. House Dustin of Barrowton claim of descent from the First King and the Barrow Kings that followed him. Here too we find the element of retribution: Daenerys is "Stormborn." She may or may not welcome Tyrion with a headsman's axe but we can easily associate her with the symbolism of the axe - bringing storm, lightning, dragonfire from above. She's also seeking justice for the destruction of her family and its legacy. Viewed in this context, I think the Ironborn game of throwing axes may be a representation of being able to avert or thrawt this retribution or justice if one is adept at the game. Harren the Black had no luck. Aegon's storm symbolically burnt and twisted his "fingers" (the towers of Harrenhal). The axe symbolism goes beyond dragons, as seen above but we also find it texually linked to dragons of course. I found no less than eight dragons with the "axe" in their names: 5 of these belong to the immediate family of Rhaenyra, including herself and all were slain during the Dance. In this instance the "flying axes" lost out, as did the rest, with the exception of a few persons and dragons. The Dance was a war for the throne but it was also a war of revenge.

Oh, lovely! That didn't even cross my mind. And didn't Jon Stark, one time King in the North, build the Wolf's Den?

@chrisdaw. I've read your theory on the secret to how the Valyrians were able to ride dragons and am on board for most of it. Makes sense. Since we have that bit of information regarding the Valyrians being kin to their dragons, I've entertained thoughts in the direction of shadowbinding or some other means of soul-transfer. You've put flesh on the bones, including the likely functioning of Dragonbinder. I don't quite agree with your take on the HotU prophecies though, mainly because I don't see Dany getting pregnant twice more only to have her unborn babies sacrificed to such a cause. I also question the narrative purpose of having Drogon taking on the personality of three different men. What is that supposed to achieve? As far as main and important characters are concerned, there have been concerted efforts against child sacrifice. Ned put his life on the line when he tried to save the lives of Cersei's illegitimate kids by informing her before his intended revealation to Robert. Davos saves Edric Storm from being sacrificed, Jon sends Mance's baby to safety. Sam helps Gilly and her baby that had been marked for sacrifice to escape. Unless Dany is forced kicking and screaming and is held in a dungeon or subjected to some other form of perfidy, I don't see this happening to her again. The two passages from the HotU may be connected but then I would expect them to line up in the order they come. Silver-bed, grey corpse - dread and bluerose - love. GRRM does use "mount" in relation to sexual activity rather often but I agree with your assessment of these mounts being a mode of transportation rather than a metaphor for sex. The silver carries Dany to "bed," to her bedding, in Westerosi terms. The second mount carries her to dread. The way it's phrased suggests Drogon is the carrier and this might be a journey to something she dreads doing or to something truely dreadful. If it involves the undead corpse, the event will most certainly be something to dread. The third mount carries her to love. If this is in line with the other passage as in the blue rose, then the "mount" in this case could be the ship that carries her to Westeros where she will meet Jon Snow. I won't reject the idea that Euron plans to concieve a child with Dany for sacrificial purposes. He is already going down that route with Falia Flowers and the fact that he desires an heir mothered by Dany, "worthy of him," whoever that "him" may be, is a clue in that direction. Standing in the way of this are both Vicatarion and Moqorro however. The black priest is well aware of Euron, has proven his ability to read the flames accurately as well as to work powerful magic. He is undoubtedly in possession of knowledge not yet revealed to the reader. As someone who belongs to a faith that believes in the prophecy and in Dany as Azor Ahai come again, there is no way he won't pull out all the stops to ensure Dany keeps her dragons. I can see him using Victarion to this end. Vicatrion will carry off the victory and get his own small personal revenge on Euron in the end but it will cost him his life. Euron is the stone beast but he is not the grey corpse at the prow of a ship, imo. Euron will most likely bind a dragon but it won't be one of Dany's. When Tyrion asks Moqorro what the future has in store for him, this is what the priest replies: Most concentrate on Tyrion snarling in the midst of all this but the priest talks about "dragons old and young." He's not speaking of human "dragons here". There are no more "old dragons" about. Maester Aemon, the oldest dragon, has passed on. The young dragons are Dany's dragons and the old ones? Well, some survived the Dance and we have one hint, however nebulous, that at least one of them is still around.

This business of the axe is complicated and will probably require lots of rereads.... In the meantime, a couple more thoughts and citations: I get the feeling that the axes can be male or female. There are signs that the double-bladed axes longaxes may be female (perhaps corresponding to the Cretian double-bladed labrys that's only seen in association with goddesses) and the single-bladed ones male. Female axes: Here's a gem from the Wolf's Den: I talked about Garth the Green's connection to the Highgarden maze and to the storm and hammer through the Baratheons in the other thread. Here we have a Garth solidly linked to an axe. It's hard to say if this one is double-bladed or not. The text does not clarify, not to the extent I've reread anyway but it's a female axe, exquisitely cared for by its owner. Areo Hotah's longaxe that he's wedded to is double-bladed. Areo from Norvos. aFfC, The Captain of the Guards These are the female ones I remember off the top of my head. Asha is married to her axe. She personally names it her husband and so it's definitely male. It must mean something since Balon also repeats it. A dirk is her suckling babe. That's all for now.

That's really interesting. Daenerys could then also be seen as a winged storm goddess. She is indeed "Stormborn." I've had an eternal debate on whether or not to associate Daenerys Stormborn with the tale of Duran Godsgrief and Elenei. Elenei's godly parents never managed to destroy the seventh iteration of Storm's End to this day. Daenerys and Robert Baratheon are adversaries, Robert brought down the Targs, crushing Rhaegar with his hammer. What if the gods have finally "birthed" their avenger in Daenerys? This line of speculation would take us way back into history of course so I'll leave it at that. I also have a thought on the storm / maze / hammer or axe symbolism. Garth is described as a fertility god. Close parallel to Garth is Robert who embodies the fertility aspect but is also a Storm Lord. I've always assumed that in order to be a proper fertility god engaged in the promoting of agriculture, Garth must have been a weather god as well, certainly to provide rain. Both wore antlers. The upward- reaching and branching form of antlers lends itself to the symbolic representation of lightning and is viewed as such in the mythologies of several cultures. Now, House Gardener and Highgarden were founded by Garth's first born son and in this context of mixed storm, lightening and hammer symbolism we find Highgarden's unique feature, a maze: So this association is by proxy because Highgarden and Storm's End are two different Houses heading two different regions. We however see the coming together of these two in Renly and Margaery.

This lore may explain the connection between the double axe and the seven pointed star of the Seven. Additionally, in the World Book, maester Harmune suggests that some axe carvings represent hammers: In our mythology, both the double-bladed axe and the hammer are strongly associated with thunderbolts/lightning and with storms. I'm thinking of Thor's hammer, Mjölnir, here. Robert Baratheon is our hammer-wielding Storm Lord and sworn to him is House Dondarrion, their coat of arms a forked purple lightning bolt, on a black field speckled with four-pointed stars. I feel all these are connected, including the labyrinths and mazes. The axe also being associated with lightning brings me back to the the Harpy of Old Ghis, a female emblem, possibly an ancient goddes, who is said to have held a thunderbolt. In Crete the double axe only accompanied goddesses, never gods. According to Daenerys, the Harpy has the wings of a bat (or dragon). If the OP is correct about carvings of bats being mistaken for axes, that would link the Harpy to the rest of the axe / thunderbolt and star symbolism as well. Bats are nocturnal, spending the day in caves, dungeons and other dark places where available. I've visited a few dungeons populated by vast colonies of bats hanging from ceilings (shudder!). We had to keep quiet to avoid setting them off. Anyway, underground labyrinths or mazes provide perfect homes for bats and coming to think of it, the Great Pyramid of Meereen which has extremely thick walls, hidden stairways and next to no windows, strikes me as an above-ground labyrinth.

The answer to the mystery behind the weirwood "heraldry" given by GRRM to the KotLT, Val, Morna and possibly Dalla is quite simple, imo. There is no House Weirwood and there may not be an order of priestesses either, well perhaps, though not in the way we might imagine it. I think these women are connected because they are "she-wolves" of the "wolf-blood." There are several clues to this. Morna of the weirwood mask is a warrior witch. The only other warrior witch mentioned across all books related to aSoIaF is Nymeria. We have no idea if Nymeria of the Rhoynar had the wolf-blood but it's an interesting thought. Nymeria is Arya's she-wolf however, Arya herself of the wolf-blood and though she's not a warrior in the classical sense, she, like Lyanna, aspired to be one. Once she's done with the FM and along with her powers, she'll deserve the title "warrior witch" herself. The wolf-blood is probably what makes a warg / skinchanger and skinchanging allows the taking on of different identities, be they in human or animal form. Morna offering to be Jon's man or woman is thus another clue. Bran can be Bran the Broken or he can be Hodor the Giant without anyone being the wiser. Val is a spearwife, also warrior woman. She also carries many subtle skinchanging references. The white bearskin outfit she wears reminds us of the "skinchanger" Mormont women: Varamyr's bear, the one that hated being skinchanged and that he lost control of upon Mel's magical attack was a white she-bear. Varamyr lost control of his she-bear and shadow-cat right in the tent where Dalla was giving birth with Val and Jon present. My guess is at that moment, the tent held 4 wargs - two men and two women (if Dalla was also a she-wolf - I think she was). But there's more convincing evidence for Val being a she-wolf: Lyanna never had a wolf but she had the wolf-blood and was a "she-wolf". She was temperamental and willful because of it, practiced at fighting with swords and like the other examples here, can be classified as a "warrior woman." Because of Ghost's white fur and red eyes, Jon thinks of his direwolf as "belonging to the weirwood." Perhaps not all wargs "belong to the weirwood" because only one in a thousand skinchangers can be a greenseer." Who can of course access the weirwood and its secrets. Thus Ghost, a he-wolf this time, is another clue to the weirwood "heraldry". As far as I can tell, the weirwood "heraldry" marks women who carry the wolf-blood and that little bit extra that will enable them or their offspring to become greenseers. Personally, I believe the women in question are very significant because the "wolf-blood" is only passed on through females, making those GRRM has marked with weirwood imagery both rare and important. I'm not sure they belong to a special order, certainly not south of the Wall, but it may be different up North where old traditions are lived by the people.

I think GRRM has been careful to spread parallels to Ramsay amongst several characters in the narrative. There are only partial parallels to be found. There are some similarities that apply to Roose as well or to Roose rather than Ramsay. Ramsay and Varamyr the skinchanger: - Varamyr killed his younger brother Bump. - he killed his mentor Haggon and settled into Haggon's cabin, reminiscent of Ramsay's desire to kill Bran and Rickon and later taking over Winterfell as its lord (this applies to Roose as well, murdering Robb). - in the pink letter, Ramsay threatens to cut out Jon Snow's heart and eat it. This is what Varamyr does to Haggon, albeit in wolf form. - Like Ramsay, Varamyr is a rapist though he does not kidnap the women outright but sends his shadowcat for them. He also does not inflict further harm upon his female victims. He does kill the brothers, husbands or other "heroes" that come to avenge their women. Rorge, from the Wiki: Ramsay turns Theon into a "dog", like Rorge basically does to Biter. Rorge later gets hold of the Hound's helm, commiting war crimes in his name. At Saltpans, he leaves a trail of butchered babes and ravished women in his wake. He is known as the "Mad Dog of Saltpans." Ramsay is associated with this kind of butchery as well as with hounds. Both are said to be "beasts in human skin:" Chett is another good partial parallel - plots to kill his commander, akin to killing a liege lord - usurping the stronghold of another: thinks of killing Craster, of installing himself in Craster's Keep and taking over Craster's young wives - killed a woman in his youth for which he was sent to the Watch - in charge of the Night's Watch's hunting and tracking dogs - imagines himself a lord with a banner not unlike that of Bolton Other suspects: Gregor Clegane (monstrous, a rapist, murderer, child killer, dog symbolism, turning his brother the Hound into a tortured soul (Theon parallel). Joffery - murdered before he could do even more damage. Daario Naharis - Dany's "monster," like Ramsay, carries two unusual knives. Also suggests a red wedding style scenario to Daenerys: The Mad King, known for torturing and burning his victims. Also termed as "a crowned beast." Euron!

Valonqar as "Strangler" is interesting. According to Cersei, Septa Saranella translated the meaning of the High Valyrian word as "little brother" for her. Where did the Septa learn High Valyrian? Did she have Valyrian roots? Was she a governess to Cersei? Is the Valyrian language part of the curriculum Septas are normally exposed to? It's not a language spoken or understood by many educated Westerosi and even Tyrion who is an avid reader more educated than most, has only very imperfect Valyrian at his command. So questioning the true meaning of the word is worth looking at. Like Tyrion, Jamie is also associated with strangling by means of a necklace, in this case Sybell Spicer, the granddaughter of Maggy the Frog from whom the prophecy came: