Dracarys Stormborn

He's proven that he kills children, even if they're his. If he does that to a new heir, the daughter's family will gain nothing. I'm sure that he wouldn't have a problem finding a wife if he became king. For the most part, a king is exempt from the law and tradition. I was really thinking along the lines of if he loses the war and is pardoned, and allowed to go back to Dragonstone / Storm's End. He'll be a normal lord then. No one is going to want to deal with him. He is a kinslayer, a huge taboo in Westeros. He will be dishonored forever. Or at least, he should be. It's similar to the Freys. They broke guest right, so now they're disgraced and have no honor.

And the main problem with not having an heir is that when you die, there will be a big issue about who takes your place. Though I wouldn't compare Elizabeth to Stannis. There's a difference between never having a child and killing your only one. And wasn't she the last Tudor because of this? Stannis cares about his line, one of the reasons why he said he saved Shireen was because she was his daughter, a Baratheon. So I guess Queen Elizabeth didn't mind ending her family's line and dynasty, but Stannis has shown us that he's not like that. You're probably joking (or at least I hope you are) but any child Mel had, shadow or not, would be a bastard as she isn't a noble or even a native of Westeros. I don't see Stan having anymore children, so he will probably die without an heir because of his stupidity. Selyse can't have anymore children. And I can't see any noble marrying their daughters off to Stannis since he's proven that he has no qualms about killing his own children in the name of a foreign god.

There are plenty of villains who think what they're doing is right or for the greater good.

I could have done without the SS they've given us. They are laughing stocks who are too busy playing hot hands with each other and giving antidote to someone who tried to kill them (I love Bron, but come on). Some of Arianne's traits (fighting with Doran) have been given to Ellaria, which makes no sense. I'm annoyed that they cut out Arianne, but making Trys an only child wasn't smart. It makes Doran look like an idiot for sending his only heir to KL, where his enemies are. At least if Quentyn was still there he wouldn't look so stupid for risking his entire line by sending Trystane into enemy territory. And it looks like the Great Dornish Conspiracy has been cut too. Sigh.

I never thought about that. Honestly I can't see him getting to the IT because of his devotion to the LoL. The Westerosi won't stand for it, and he needs support of other houses to take the IT and keep it.

We're in complete agreement on the setup. I talked about it in the previous pages of this thread. Not only is it insane to think that Ramsey and 20 men can pull that off (unless they're ninjas or Super Saiyans or something), but it's completely unbelievable that Stannis would let that be the final nail in the coffin. I also think that the pacing was bad. We don't know if they've been in this situation for weeks or just a few days. The amount of time they've been hungry should play a factor of his decision as well. With that being said, I never thought of it as Stannis having to sacrifice the daughter he's tried so hard to save. That could have been interesting and powerful, if it was done correctly. It should have been made clear to us that Stan had tried every other option and there was literally no hope besides burning her. I think it should have been more at stake than just starving and being cold. Maybe some sort of illness could have spread throughout the camp. Then you would have had cold, hunger, and a disease that's killing all of your men. I would have accepted that.

How do you guys feel about Dorne? I think it's just awful. It's no more than filler, and they turned the Sand Snakes into jokes.

My main problem with show!Stannis sacrificing Shireen is that the writers spent so much time telling us how he's done everything within his power to save her in past. He risked the lives of pretty much everyone in Storm's End by not killing Shireen or sending her with the stonemen when she got greyscale. Shireen could have started a greyscale outbreak, but Stan's love and determination pushed him to look for a cure. He went through every option. Here, it just didn't seem like he did. I understand they took away the food and threw a snowstorm his way, but Stannis is stubborn enough to let that stop him. I don't consider myself to be a fangirl of his (although I do enjoy calling him 'The Mannis') but I can acknowledge and respect his resolve. That man does not bend easily. It just didn't feel like he tried every option before burning his own daughter alive.

Is he in the show? I'm a little fuzzy on that as I read it long ago, but didn't Stan want to burn him or something?

Judging from the preview, it does seem like the sacrifice worked. Whatever. I will never be okay with poor Shireen being burned alive by her own father. I do see that this opens up the way to the IT again. But the question I have now is, what is Stannis going to do if he wins the Iron Throne? I seem to recall Mel telling him he wouldn't be able to have anymore kids. What is a king without an heir?

Forgive me, but I honestly don't understand how being hungry can make Stan's scouts / guards miss seeing Ramsey and his ninjas infiltrate the camp. Does hunger make you blind? If Ramsey was detected, they could have stopped them before so much damage was done.

If Ramsey can build huge pyres of flame, why can't they?

This. Tbh this entire season has been pretty lackluster in terms of writing, but this just takes the cake. The catalyst for Stannis sacrificing his own daughter isn't well written or logical at all. And the pacing is jarring. Stan went from being angry with Mel for suggesting the sacrifice in the last episode to agreeing to it in this one?

Them being freezing, tired and half starving played no part in what? Not noticing the enemy sabotaging their camp? Being tired is part of the job, they're in a war. As for the hunger and freezing, Stan ordered the killed horses to be butchered for food. Maybe they could have used horse hide for warmth? The Ramsey problem isn't that it's rushed. It's that they made Ramsey and his lot way too competent. If they ambushed them with more men then managed to destroy a bit of supplies, fine. But as it is Ramsey should be made the War Commander of Planetos if he could do all of that with just 20 men without any of them getting caught.

20 men were able to sneak in undetected in a camp that should have been heavily guarded as it was in enemy territory, destroyed food that was enough for 6000 men, killed hundreds of horses, and escaped without any of them getting caught? Unless Ramsay and his men are ninjas, that is absolutely crazy and makes no sense. I'm a fan of the show, the reason why I even found out about the books was because of the show. But if something doesn't make sense, it doesn't. It has nothing to do with who wrote it. If GRRM puts this exact situation in the books, (which I don't think he will, he's good at explaining things) it would still be bad writing. It really seems like D&D didn't think through setting up the catalyst for Shireen's sacrifice.

They said it was GRRM's idea to get the target off their backs. Shireen probably will be burned, but since GRRM is a good writer I'm sure it'll be done in a way that makes sense (like Mel doing it behind Stan's back ... cause he wouldn't burn his only heir unless there was literally no hope and they tried everything else first). D&D were vauge enough when they revealed it would be in the books. They said that GRRM told them about it, but they didn't say that it would happen exactly like they wrote it. They didn't care if they spoiled anything. They knew they would face criticism for burning her and they said anything to push the fault onto someone else. Basically? They threw GRRM under the bus.

The show is extremely popular and successful though. I know the show has a lot of piracy issues, but I'm sure HBO has received more subscriptions since the show came on. Wouldn't the network give them more money since it's such a hit?

Does anyone know why they can't just up the episode count from 10 to 15-20? That way the pacing can be better, and more storylines from the book can be put in. Less characters wouldn't have to be cut, and we could get more exposition.

Didn't Stannis tell Onion Knight to arrange for the horses to be used as food? That could have kept them going for a bit longer. I understand why he did it too, even though I'm glad we both agree that they should have made it more dire and show us that he spent a lot of time thinking about it. And it was very rushed. He went from getting angry at Mel for even suggesting the idea of sacrificing her not too long ago. Now he's so ready to do it? And how the hell did Ramsay pull off sneaking himself and 20 men inside the camp to burn food for thousands of men and kill horses without anyone being seen or captured? Did he have ninja training before the events of this story or something? This whole Stannis storyline is horribly written tbh. The writers are trying to show us something by having Stannis be the one to kill her, I agree. I don't think they succeeded, however, because all I'm seeing is how out of character the whole thing is. If anything, I think this is the beginning of his downfall. Someone already said it, but when word gets around that he killed his daughter in the name of a foreign god, he's going to lose all support.

I don't know if it was the pacing of the episode or what, but it didn't even seem like they were out there for that long. They could have waited it out some more to see if the weather would clear up. And if it didn't, try using a leech on Shireen instead of outright cooking her. Stannis is the type of guy that is stubborn and will try out every option he has before murdering his daughter, his only heir. Maybe if they showed us in detail the situation, it wouldn't be as out of character as it is. But as it is, I'm just not seeing it. It just doesn't seem dire enough for him to kill his only heir. When she had greyscale, he was risking his life and his entire house/staff/subjects by not killing her or sending her with the stonemen. She could have started an outbreak, but he did everything to save her. He didn't do that here. It makes no sense. I still think Mel should have done it behind his back.

I think there's a difference between Stannis killing his brother, who willingly and knowingly tried to take his place on the throne (and kill him in the process) and murdering his only heir in cold blood not too long after having a huge monologue explaining how he was stubborn enough and loving enough to save her from greyscale when she was a baby, despite the odds being against him. Shireen was an innocent child, Renly was a grown ass man who knew what he was getting into when he entered the war. With that being said, I don't think anyone believed that Stannis was a saint. But he has shown that he cares for his daughter and wouldn't let her be harmed. Stannis sacrificing Shireen is not only morally wrong and out of character, but stupid. It makes no sense for him to get rid of his only heir just for ... what, exactly? Food? As people have said before, this isn't the first time Stannis has been faced with hardship. He's been starved in war before, that never stopped him. He wouldn't give up his only heir (who, in the show anyway, he loves immensely) just so his men won't starve. I can see him sacrificing her for an extreme circumstance, (like if her death would save everyone from the white walkers or something) but this? It was just bad writing on D&D's part. Even if GRRM is doing it in the books, he'll probably have it make sense, at least.