AllOfTheHours

That is what Sansa believes to be true based on this chapter. My guess is, that while this is planted in the text, it's planted as a misdirection so when Myranda and the Royces come out against LF and "Alayne," it will feel like a bigger twist. Sansa knows Harry is promised to her and thinks Myranda is interested in LF (based on her, uh, questions). I think, however, that Myranda's questions were a ruse. I think she suspects Alayne of being Sansa since she knew the Lord Commander was "Jon Snow" in AFFC. So she's trying to suss out Sansa's real relationship with LF. As for marrying Harry, if he knows she's Sansa he'll be more than interested. But, as it stands currently in his eyes, he is the heir to the Vail, a future Lord Paramount, and Warden of the East, and "Alayne" is just the natural daughter of an upjumped minor lord. I think he will try to regain her favor to keep the peace during the Tourney, but I bet he will find a way to free himself of this engagement before ever learning she is Sansa Stark.

In my last post I talked specifically about how you said Jaime and Brienne are about honor, while ignoring what they actually vowed/what their goals are. And Tyrion, you said he will stay married to Sansa without exploring his feelings for Tysha, his newfound acceptance of raping unwilling women, and the fact that we don't know when he will return/where Sansa will be at that time. But the point being we apparently have different standards for evidence. I have no interest in arguing with you about what you believe. I just don't think anyone can know or claim to know exactly what will happen next (unless they are GRRM) and I won't be convinced of a theory without direct quotes from the text. As for LF's character arc, it is made up of lots of different subplots and complex (or hidden) motivations. One of them is his accumulation of territory. A big point is made about this in the show, so I went back to the books to review the way this shows up in the text. As a ward in Riverrun, he knew the heir to part of the Fingers would never be respected/considered good enough to marry a daughter of the LP of the Riverlands. Through his own skill and Lysa's interference he was able to raise to Master of Coin. However, he was still of lesser status than the other lords around him (the Baratheons, Starks, and Lannisters) and so, like Varys, he was kept around for his usefulness although he was treated with contempt and distrust (by Ned especially in GoT and by several of the Lannisters who have casually discussed killing him out of hand). Then in ACOK, Tyrion hatches the plot to try and discern which of his fellow council members are reporting to Cersei (LF, Pycelle, Varys). In doing this he offers LF Harrenhall: I always found "I have him, he knew" to one of the most interesting lines in the series as it pertains to LF. Tyrion and LF are both exceedingly intelligent and excellent at reading people, so I give this line significant weight. Especially with the way it reflects LF's own advice to Sansa about how to be a manipulator, below: Next we see LF become Lord of Harrenhal married to Lady Lysa Arryn - daughter of Riverrun and Mistress of the Vale - with Sansa - the apparent heiress to Winterfell - conveniently at his side. And he has stated - although we can't know if he is being entirely truthful - that he wants to marry Sansa to HtH so he can reveal her and use the untouched army of the Vale to reclaim Winterfell: LF knows true legitimacy (in the eyes of the royal family and the LPs) comes from birth, titles, land, and castles. And although he will never have the "birth" element, he has gone about collecting titles, land, castles, and women with high birth (Lysa, Sansa). I won't make conclusive statements about what all of this means until all the books are out and I can reread knowing for sure what everything was leading too. However, LF now has authority in the Riverlands (through Harrenhal), in the Vale (as Lord Protector), and he has a Stark to help him take the North/Winterfell. I find this all very interesting because it parallels the marriage alliance Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully thought up to unite the Riverlands, Vale, and North which helped secure the entire Northern half of the country and win Robert's Rebellion. If LF plays his cards right, he will be (if he isn't already) one of the most powerful lords in the country with the only fresh army in Westeros, therefore and an amazing ally or a terrible threat to any prospective King or Queen. Edit: Added more quotes to support my thinking and a new last sentence when I got home from work .

Once again, you haven't disproved my point. You are choosing to view a few pieces of the story out of context and then you omit other quotes from the text/possible character arcs/possible outcomes that disagree with your conclusions. I have no problem with you believing what you want to believe, as I have said repeatedly, but then you draw detailed timelines and ascribe characters's futures with a certainty that is unfounded. Yes, Jaime and Brienne's arcs are currently about honor and vow keeping. (Like Sansa's is currently about using the Vale to go North). However if Jaime and Brienne are successful in finding her they have NO stated reason/motivation in the text to bring her to KL. As far as they know, Sansa has a price on her head and if she shows up in KL she will die! A roadtrip to KL would be doing the opposite of helping her and it would be dishonorable! Brienne wants to protect her and reunite her with her family, that means to fulfill her vow she'll bring Sansa North. Jaime knows Cersei will try to kill Sansa, so if he want's to protect her he'll bring her as far from KL as possible. As he said about the girls, "… if the gods are good, she’ll forget she was a Stark. She’ll wed some burly blacksmith or fat-faced innkeep, fill his house with children, and never need to fear that some knight might come along to smash their heads against a wall. Bringing her South directly contradicts their character arcs/motivations. There is no evidence either would ever consider bringing her South. As far Bran's vision, you yourself posted last page that Brienne probably didn't even exist then. And I have seen dozens of posts trying to analyze this vision and they all have many different interpretations. It is impossible to say which is true at this point. And the vision could have changed/evolved over time if GRRM even ever intended it to unfold the way you are predicting. Since, as of GoT, Brienne may not have been invented yet and Sansa was still getting set up to marry Joffrey and get killed. And finally you are ignoring other character's arcs: LF's arc (Harrenhall, the Vale, maybe Winterfell and Beyond), Sansa's desire since ACoK (to get home/the North), and you're reinventing Tyrion's arc to fit you're theory (he's still in Essos, we don't know when/where he will return or what he will want or how his personality will have changed). As I said before: you are at perfect liberty to argue for what you believe, it's still just an opinion. Especially when you're extrapolating detailed sequences of events and predicting characters' future choices (which directly contradict their current choices) using "character arc" and "major themes" without providing any direct quotes from any of the 5 books as support. I am actually interested in your argument (which is why we've been going back and forth for three pages), but until you provide quotes from the text or respond the questions/textual quotes myself and others have put forward to counter your claims, I really don't see how we can have a discussion over the text.

You do realize, that your response just validates what I was trying to say? "Large swathes of character arc," "biggest most blatant passages of foreshadowing " and "major themes" are subjective (based on your interpretation) not objective and can't be used to claim what will or won't happen. Unless you are GRRM, you can't know what the character arcs, foreshadowing, and major themes are. Although you are at perfect liberty to argue for what you believe, it's still just an opinion. Especially when you're extrapolating detailed sequences of events and predicting characters' future choices (which directly contradict their current choices) using "character arc" and "major themes" without providing any direct quotes from any of the 5 books as support. I am actually interested in your argument (which is why we've been going back and forth for three pages), but until you provide quotes from the text or respond the questions/textual quotes myself and others have put forward to counter your claims, I really don't see how we can have a discussion over the text. But I do agree that this has gotten tedious.

I don't want to speak for Colonel Green, because I don't know what he is thinking. But that is the tone most of the other posters have been taking for the past couple of pages, ie. that they know what will happen, what GRRM will write, and how Sansa's story will go. So, I don't think it's fair to single him out like this for his phrasing and not anyone else.

I am really not following the evidence behind this theory. How would these events occur? Why would all the characters involved dramatically change their stated goals to accomplish them? So first, Tyrion swings by the Vale picks up his wife and she goes to KL with him by choice? She gives up on her main desire for the past three books she's been in ie. to get home to the North? To go to KL and "decorating the halls, looking innocent, playing games." I'm not sure how he would stumble upon her so they could go to KL together. And why he would want her, remember he blames her for his arrest/almost execution. Or why Sansa would want him and chose to sit around KL playing games and looking innocent? How do we know when/how Aegon or Cersei will die? Or when they may or may not have power? I have seen dozens and dozens of theories on this, what makes yours accurate? How do you know she's not in a dungeon? She already has a track record of sneaking out of the Red Keep once. I see no reason why anyone (Cersei, Dany, even Tyrion) would want her roaming the castle on her own accord and risk her escaping again. The thing limiting her influence is the fact that she has no power. This is like ACoK and ASoS all over again. She trapped in KL, married to Tyrion, and she doesn't have any of her own (loyal Northern) soldiers around her to enforce her will. Remember what happened to Ned? Being HotK/wife of tHoTK doesn't guarantee anything, even if it were possible for Tyrion and Sansa. Sorry, but I think you mean if Tyrion is a dragonrider. How do we know Dany will be overthrown by the people? Before or after her fight with the Others? Why? And why would the Faith ever take Tommen and Myrcella's side (if they're even still alive)? They have been trying to prove they are bastards/Cersei is a whore for ages now. So, I think this theory needs some support/evidence. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it's based on assumptions that other assumptions are built on top of and more assumptions are put on top of those. I don't see why Sansa would chose to go anywhere with Tyrion. Nor do I see why she would chose to go to KL, especially now when she has finally escaped and has a plan to go North.

So, regardless of what pairings you want to happen, I don't see how you can argue for Tyrion/Sansa as a potentially positive development for Sansa (more political power and fun court life) and GRRM's endgame without dissecting and exploring who he has become. If you said Tyrion/Sansa will happen and they will both be more miserable then ever, I would agree that is definitely possible! But the idea that they will be partners in power like "Alysanne and Jaeharys" and that he will "yearn for her love", is something I disagree with. Not that is a bad opinion, it isn't, I just disagree. The reason the rape is important isn't because I think someone will catch him and geld him, but because I believe if he was alone with Sansa he might try to rape her. And I don't see how they could have any semblance of a happy marriage if he rapes her. I also don't think he will help her secure power/prestige through him and I don't think she can manipulate him with her courtesies - he is too clever, too bitter, and too far gone. The quotes for ADWD that show Tyrion's "change of heart" and new desire to have women who don't want him: So I suppose, I just want to know how these character development effect your understanding/belief in Tyrion/Sansa as a political team/potentially successful marriage. :agree: I agree with this completely! I know I will sound redundant if I write this, but no one wants to take Sansa south in the story except Shadrich so he can collect on the bounty on her head. Sansa wants to go North. LF want her to go North (with HtH and an army from the Vale). Brienne wants to bring her to family (that means North). Jaime would bring her as far from KL as possible. Ned died wanting his daughters to go back North. Could Shadrich bring her south again? I guess he could, yes. But I see her going north because that is where her power originates (with loyal vassal lords and her brothers) since if she is in the North being a Stark will protect her, anywhere else in the kingdom and being a Stark/Tyrion's wife/accused of regicide will be a one-way trip to the gallows. And the North is where all the major characters appear to be headed for the final conflicts.

Obviously? Of course he knew Tysha wasn't a whore, he used that phrase in ADWD already knowing she was innocent after Jaime's confession. Doesn't mean he didn't use it. All it does is reinforce over and over and over and over again how obsessed Tyrion is with finding her. As Ser Pounce FTW said, it has already been confirmed that we will learn "where whores go." So only the person who sits the IT can defend the realm from the Others? I guess Stannis should just leave and we should get Tommen up there on his pony. Tyrion isn't yearning for her love anymore. Tyrion isn't the same character he was when they married. I don't see how you can say you want them to remain married without addressing him being a rapist who admitted to enjoying forcing himself on a woman who looked at him in disgust and who has yet to have any power in Dany's Court. If you accept he will be her Hand based on the show, you also have to concede that Sansa may be going North (since that is where the show has placed her and is continuing to send her farther north to find her brothers after Theon's reveal).

So she would provide legitimacy to a court that isn't really a court? Sansa doesn't have that kind of influence. And even if she did, she's wanted for killing a king herself. I don't see any opportunities in KL for Sansa until after the war with the Others is finished. There is too much chaos and too many forces pushing her North, from her own will to LF trying to get her to claim WF (with HtH and an army of the Vale). I have discussed this quote a lot over the past year, it's one of my favorites in ADWD. And I actually want it to be about Sansa, otherwise he thinks about Shae 50 times for every time he thinks of Sansa, which just felt strange to me unless he literally didn't care about her at all (which I don't think is true). However, as you say, the key word is ambiguous. We don't know yet. It may drop. But based on the text we have so far, he's still bitter and not above rape. I don't want him anywhere near Sansa. It would take a lot of whitewashing to make him a decent husband to anyone. And the wife he wants is Tysha. Unless we get confirmation that she is dead, in which case he might take Sansa as a consolation prize, he won't give up on her. It's why his catch praise in ADWD was "Where do whores go?" and not "Where did Sansa go?"

Whether or not GRRM finishes the series in two more books or five, he has paced himself to conclude the story in two. Which means IMO he has planned to condense the space between Dany's arrival and her fight with the Others. Winter is no longer coming, per the white raven in the last chapter of ADWD, it has arrived. Dany will be landing in a kingdom in Winter with the Others at the Wall or breaking it down. I don't see Dany establishing a Court in KL before she fights the Others. I think Dany and her army are going North, and soon. Her dragons will help defeat the Others. Even if they land in the South, they will have to go North. As Stannis recognizes, the true war for the Seven Kingdoms isn't in KL but at the Wall, "Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne." Why would she be welcomed in Dany's court (if and when it is established)? She is the daughter of one of the Usurper's Dogs and the niece to Lyanna Stark. Plus, in her own right, she was engaged to the Usurper's "son" and could have been his Queen. She is not only the daughter of enemies but possibly a rival. And I don't see how she would be convincing Tyrion of anything. The few times he thinks of her since his imprisonment and trial it was always with bitterness and anger. Not only does he call her personally "false" he also says things like "All the girls cry when I kiss them" and "Most women prefer to be done with me as quickly as they can." And Sansa has made is clear that she doesn't want him, it would take a lot of manipulating to make him forget all of her previous reactions towards him. Also, since their marriage, he killed Shae who he said he loved, murdered his father, and raped a slave. He's not going to forgive Sansa and allow her to twist his arm with a kiss and a smile. I could however see Tyrion wanting to maintain the marriage for political purposes - Sansa is the key to Winterfell and therefore a valuable asset. He's also attracted to her and he has lost his previous abhorrence of forcing unwilling girls to have sex with him. With time he could soften to her again, but I don't think we have that kind of time between Dany arriving in Westeros and going North to fight the Others.

I disagree, I think as the books have progressed KL has (and will continue to) become more and more irrelevant. As LC Mormont told Jon in the first book, "Gods save us, boy, you're not blind and you're not stupid. When dead men come hunting in the night, do you think it matters who sits the Iron Throne?" As for LF, he has more power now that he is out of KL. In KL, he was a servant to the crown who could be dispossed of at will by the King, Queen, and the Hand (Ned, Tywin, Tyrion, are only a few of the people who have threatened his life/wished they had killed him). In KL he couldn't have an army and he couldn't get away with the massive powergrabs he's been up to in the Vale right under the royal family's nose. When Tyrion first offered LF Harrenhall (in his plot alleging it was a reward for marrying Myrcella to SR) Tyrion realized that Harrenhall was more than LF had dared to hope for before. Being Lord of Harrenhall or husband to the Lady of the Eyrie is greater than being Master of Coin, ie. you get any army, you get your own tax money, and you get more autonomy away from the constantly watching eyes of the royalty. GRRM said, “Why, the Hound is dead, and Sansa may be dead as well. There’s only Alayne Stone.” Although it can be argued that Sandor Clegane may have survived and ended on the Quiet Isle, he is isolated on an island with a bad limp, I don't see him scaling the walls of the Eyrie any time soon to rescue Sansa. In fact I don't see him going anywhere any time soon. At the end of the series, when Sansa is no longer and outlaw accused of kingslaying, I could see them crossing paths, but at the moment he can't fight for her and she can't pardon him. What would them meeting accomplish plot wise? Are you misusing the term objectification just to be a troll or do you truly not understand how Jaime and Brienne's quests for Sansa are objectifying? Also, do you believe that if Jamie and Brienne find her they're going to bring her to KL? I think that is the least likely place in the world for them to bring her, since almost everyone with power there wants her dead or wants to cash in on the price on her head. As Jamie himself thinks, "...if the goods are good she'll forget she was a Stark. She'll wed some burly blacksmith or fat-faced innkeep, fill his house with children, and never need to fear some knight might come along to smash their heads against a wall." He's not going to be rushing her back to KL so she can try to be a player, he'd get her as far away from notice/power as possible. Pus Brienne wanted to bring her to her mother, if she crosses paths with Sansa she's going to bring her to her last living family (in the North) not to KL (where she was trying to rescue her from in the first place) either. If Tyrion stops being obsessed with Tysha, if he stops blaming Sansa for framing him, and if he allows any woman to get close to him again after the trauma and betrayal he has gone through perhaps Tyrion/Sansa can be a thing. As it stands, ADWD!Tyrion would not so easily be manipulated by Sansa. As for Bran we have to see where his story takes him, but he is the heir to Winterfell so I didn't just discount him in case he returns from beyond the Wall (as he does in the Outline). However, that is why I included her three remaining brothers not just Bran. Davos is off to find Rickon and make him LP of Winterfell/the North. Plus Jon, may be AAR, and have the most game changing story in the books. All the action is going North. The war against the Others is starting, and it was always the most important conflict of the story. In the original trilogy plan, Dany conquered Westeros in book two and then had to unite her kingdom against the Others in books three, because what happens in the North is what is most important to the endgame of the story.

The game she has been groomed to play? You mean by LF? LF has shown her how being outside of KL can give you more power/autonomy than being in KL. In KL, his manipulations were entirely behind the scenes, that is why he had Dontos as a go between. How many times did Ned, Stannis, and Tyrion say they should have killed LF and Varys when they had the chance? And they would have been perfectly at liberty too as higher lords/HotK. His life was constantly at risk, that is why he wanted to leave and marry Lysa (with Sansa in tow), because he could form a power base in the Vale (an army to protect him and some privacy in which to operate more effectively and safely). Outside of KL and in the middle of the country, LF is a much stronger player since he has claim to the Riverlands (he is lord of Harrenhall), the Vale, and the North (through Sansa). Even LF's plan for Sansa has always been to go North, where her supposed inheritance lies, he has never alluded to her going South again. That is why LF says he wants to marry her to Harry the Heir in the first place: so they can go North to Winterfell from a position of power with the Vale's untouched army behind them. To the south, Sansa is in a position of weakness, a lone wolf with no power, no true allies, and a large price on her head. To the North lies her three brothers, her father's still loyal vassal lords, and her home. She will be much more effective as a player if she can get to Winterfell and get her family and her vassals behind her, rather than hiding who she is and running around scared in the South. Really, so a dead Sandor is more interesting than a dead Jon? Ok, then. Jaime and Brienne's stories objectify Sansa. She is the damsel they have to rescue, or as you put it, "Jaime's last chance at honor." It's about them: Jamie's honor and Brienne's vows, its not about Sansa as an autonomous character. I have no problem with them helping her, but just because they want to use her to feel good about themselves doesn't mean they're the best path for her. So we're sure Tyrion is coming back in the next book, that he's going to go South if Sansa is there, and that his plot will include Sansa in a meaningful way? That's a lot of speculation. LF isn't farther south than Sansa is now. She doesn't have to go south to find him, they're together. I think she will have to deal with him in the Vale before she can go anywhere. Really, no plot in the North? Seriously? No, first, in the North we have Rickon and Bran and Jon- Sansa's brothers. Her brothers who are heirs to Winterfell and LC of the NW and will protect/respect her without trying to use her to get something in return. Although Jon may be out of commission at the moment, I believe like most readers that he still has a role to play, and in ADWD we saw just how far he was willing to go to save one of his sisters. He might not be as close to Sansa as Arya, but he kept telling Stannis that Winterfell belongs to her, so I doubt he would let her die alone in the snow. Plus, as their sister and LF's protegee, Sansa can teach her brother's what she has learned about playing the game, the weaknesses of some of the main players in the South, and make Winterfell/the North a stronger realm politically. Second, even if she doesn't run into her brothers, who else is in the North? Stannis who is looking to install a new Warden of the North after Jon refused him. Although he has an issue with "Lady Lannister" Jon has repeatedly told Stannis that Winterfell should belong to Sansa and many other Northerners believe the same. If LF can annul a marriage, why can't Stannis? Especially after he learns it was not consummated and he sees that she can provide him a means to an end: to unite the North for him? There are more political opportunities for Sansa in the North. As was saw in GoT with Ned, in the North his authority was supported by loyal vassals and he was powerful. When he went South he became vulnerable, he became overwhelmed by enemies and didn't have enough of his own loyal men beside him to save him (they were all in the North). Likewise Sansa draws power from Winterfell/the North, as we saw in the snow castle scene with LF and SR. She felt Winterfell making her stronger. And third, in "The Winds of Winter" we have one of the essential conflict of the series: the War with the Others on the horizon. In the original Outline, Jon, Arya, Bran and Catelyn all fought the Others beyond the Wall. The Starks were always intended to reunite and fight the Others after the RW, a lot has changed, but given the Original Outline, the opportunities for Sansa in the North, and the direction of the TV Show, I see her going North.

I agree too. I don't see Sansa and Aegon running into each other anytime soon (at least not before Arianne and Dany come across him first). I think Sansa is headed North (although I am loathe to use the show as a reason something will happen in the books), I think the last scene where Theon could point to a big Stark reunion at the Wall (Jon, Rickon, Sansa, and perhaps Arya when she returns from Braavos). I don't really see anything for Sansa in the South and I think the possibility of spending chapters watching her and Aegon fall in love just sounds tedious to me.

Thank you! :) I also agree completely with you! Like you said, GRRM's shocks are grounded in logic, the shocks tonight were, well, grounded in the absurd. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :thumbsup:

What is happening to Dorne/Jaime...? I just can't. Really missing Arianne. As for the Sansa rape scene. I don't think anyone is saying it's terrible because the don't expect rape from GoT. It's terrible because it's terrible writing. And I've heard a lot of people saying its not as bad as in the book, but this scene didn't happen in the book. As I posted in another thread: