Wouter

16 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

This is news to me. Interesting, but also pretty convoluted for no reason. Even if the Light thought she was alive, she'd hardly have trouble keeping herself hidden. 

This way, she could establish herself as a Seanchan noblewomen or some such, using the one power in subtle ways to get to power without all alarms going off in the white tower and other power centres who could be a threat. Otherwise, she would have to keep a very low profile.

15 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Didn't Ishy tell Fain that the Dark One had given Lanfear the gift of immortal life? That indicated to me that she might be special in that way (which honestly, I kinda don't like, but considering her fate with the doors and Sandersons' reveal about her, it kinda fits. maybe).

It's quite possible, even likely given the books, that all the forsaken/chosen have the gift of immortal life. Lanfear being one of the chosen, then would also have that (which Fain may not have known). It doesn't have to mean that only Lanfear has that, given that Ishy is more or less her superior and the DO's favorite, as his only true supporter. Sure, Lanfear also did him a great service, but would he give her such a great gift for that and deny the same to his most trused lieutenant?

Lanfear wouldn't need to die if they follow the books, just trap her for a while and have her come back.

On 10/13/2023 at 9:02 PM, Denvek said:

Yeah, this one felt like they wanted to get Peanut Hamper and Jeffrey Coombs back but couldn’t really work out how to do it seamlessly.

Their part was fine (the evil-AI group therapy was quite funny), but the other part of the episode (Badgey) didn't go over quite as well. Overall I agree that after the strong first 2 episodes, the rest of the season is a bit so-so. I hope the resolution for the mysterious ship will be good, at least.

5 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Swordplay was more of a sport for them, but they were very good at it. It was re-discovered in the period of the long decline when society started to break down long before the breakout of the war so they had time to hone their skills. When Rand fights Be'lal in the Stone, Rand can barely hold him off, and Be'lal wants Rand to grab Callandor for him so he's not trying to kill him.

I understand, but for Lan it is not a sport but his main way of doing battle. He will be more experienced than Demandred is, even if Demandred was a great sport fencer or something like that. Lan actually has killed a lot in battle with a sword, and nearly died quite a bit by the swords of his opponents.

It doesn't make much sense that powerful channelers in the AOL would ever have needed to really kill with it, in battle they had much better options.

On 10/12/2023 at 9:12 PM, Arakasi said:

It’s clear Ishamael wasn’t going at full power there. He is playing the long game and for him the victory is turning Rand to the dark. He had zero interest in defeating him there. Getting Rand injured helps that.

I generally enjoyed the finale, but I don't know what Ishamael was really doing. If he was really going full to break through Egwene's defensive weaves, that would be disappointing. At face value, Ishy got defeated way too easily.

It's not clear to me what happened. Did Ishy really die, or was it an illusion (or did he die, but will the DO resurrect him in the same body and he knows that, which would come down to the same thing - Fares Fares remains in the show)?

Was he, to some extent, working with Lanfear's plan - she would help Rand kill Ishy and she said so openly. Did Ishamael willingly play along, is there a good cop/bad cop routine going on and he is giving Lanfear a shot at turning him? But then, why release the other Forsaken? I guess this would still be explainable by him not trusting Lanfear in any case, wanting to keep her in check and to keep Rand and co on their toes.

Another interpretation is that he had planned to drive Rand to despair by having his friends one by one be defeated or turned to the shadow, but if so he wasn't very far along and his chances to realise this were always slim. In that case, he would have decided to give up when things went south along that front, but still, why the entire setup with the convoluted gentling by remote damane? What was his plan with Mat, did he actually plan for what happened (but even Min's view didn't quite predict that)?

I hope we hear more about that in between seasons, or at least during season 3 we get some more insights. And I hope Fares has not left the show alltogether. If he has, we could still get Moridin later, I suppose, with another actor.

On 10/13/2023 at 11:40 PM, Werthead said:

I always thought Rand hitting Blademaster level in a couple of months was pure bullshit, but I did rationalise it as some of his last-life Lews Therin training coming through subconsciously. With centuries to practice with the blade, Lews/Rand and any of the Forsaken should be able to kill any modern-day "blademaster" in seconds (Lan beating

Demandred was a bit cheesy for that, but at least they had Demandred get winded by fighting half a dozen lower-tier characters first, which kinda makes it work).

While I agree LTT's knowledge and skill was accessed by Rand in that scene (and the show could have gone that route against Turak, though the Indy moment wasn't bad either), I don't think centuries of practice makes sense. Demandred and LTT could use the power as a weapon, and they had access to "shocklances" as well. No way swords would have been very important to them in a military sense.

18 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

Ingtar's reveal as a darkfriend was shot, and deleted.  Will probably be released at some point.

It's for the best, considering they really didn't set that up well at all. Another victom of Barney leaving the show. However, it is a bit grating, seen over the whole season, that the fade nailed to the door has no apparent explanation in the show (Fain may have powers in the show but at this point, he doesn't disobey Ishamael, so why would he turn on the Fade?) and that Ingtar's conversation with Perrin is in there but without any followup (other than it having some bearing on Liandrin and maybe Lanfear).

4 hours ago, Arakasi said:

He’s also very certain Ishamael isn’t coming back which seems an odd thing to think.

Let's hope he doesn't know more than we do, concerning the actor.

What I did end up appreciating in the finale, was Mat and the heroes of the horn. I feared this part would be cheesy, but it was maybe the best part of the finale. Lan and Moiraine reconnecting was good also, though Lan snatching arrows from the air was really over the top.

I didn't mind Moiraine channeling at the ships, there are multiple ways to justify a way past the oaths ("aes sedai"/accepted in direct danger, the dragon in danger and thus the whole world including Moiraine herself, she feels threatened by the damane,...).

I also appreciated the Whitecloaks being competent, using sound tactics (and wouldn't Ishamael have been aware of them, he does have at least one prominent Whitecloak spy in the show cfr the cold opening of season 2?) by masking their approach and prioritising the biggest threat: the damane. I even felt for the Bornhalds when Geofram was killed by Perrin, he didn't really deserve it even though Valda did. In the books he was killed by the Seanchan. In the show, Dain actually has good reasons to hate Perrin.

Netflix has picked up Prodigy. S1 to appear on the service sometime in 2023, S2 in 2024. An order for season 3 is possible, according to Aaron Waltke, but of course only if the numbers are good.

Very happy that we will see season 2, at least.

8 hours ago, karaddin said:

Another detail from this episode I liked - traveling is pretty much confirmed now (which I had assumed would be the case) with how Lanfear popped Mat across to Falme and was back in time to have her stroll, but she didn't tip her hand (and risk Moraine catching the weave) by offering that. She just continues with their plan to go via the ways and opens that gate even though she hates slow travel. So often we see dumb mistakes from villains in stories so it's worth recognizing when they're doing the opposite.

Yes, competent villains are nice, especially if they give them plausible reasons not to just wipe the floor with the protagonists (which is presently the case for both Ishy and Lanfear - both want something from Rand and to a lesser extent from his allies/friends).

Lanfear must indeed have used some form of travel (potentially through the dreamworld - in any case, she can transport Mat in addition to herself) and is smart enough to hide this ability from the channelers of this age, starting her attack from the expected position (the Foregate) and taking the "mundane" waygate to escape with Rand.

Come to think of it, would a Fade be capable of taking someone with him when it does its shifting in the shadows thing?

7 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

In the moment I was hoping Rand would shield Lanfear, having learned it from Ishy's weave, and leave her tied off for Siuan to take back to the White Tower for trial and execution (before the Black Ajah break her free, of course, but they'd need a male Forsaken or Taim to unshield her).

That would hardly have been possible, as even Rand at full strength would have serious trouble with a channeler of her strength and skill (she was a scholar in the One Power in the age of legends). And she is one of his more useful allies, even if she is also a loose cannon and very volatile in general. In the books, Rand allies with her, too.

6 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

For sure.  They're not going to Tear next season.

Ingtar is probably the one to fight Turak, and sheathe the sword to get the win.

Yes, looks like it. And I don't mind Ingtar doing so (he hasn't had much to do, unlike his role in the book) but I wonder if they are even going to be doing his redemption arc (were it not that he had a suspicious talk with Perrin about motivations of darkfriends, I would wonder if he was still a DF at all in the show) this season. If they do it out of nowhere in ep 8, it will probably not have near the impact it had in the books (one of the best moments of the entire series; the ability to redeem DF's is a key one for the dragon and his allies).

5 hours ago, David Selig said:

This episode was really impressive visually, the show has made massive strides in this area since last season. Lanfear blowing everything up was a spectacular sequence. But the writing had so many issues. Moiraine and Lan defying the Amyrlin to join Lanfear had me facepalming. Siuan's plan for Rand was pretty flawed, but when the other option was literally doing exactly what ishamael and Lanfear wanted of him at this point, Moiraine and Lan going along with it made no sense to me. And Lan figuring out that moiraine has been shielded, not stilled, felt extremely contrived.

I think it's clever that Lan figures it out - most Aes Sedai are too uncomfortable around the concept of stilling to study it, Lan would have ample motivation to study it instead, and he had access to books at Verin's place. Lan would realise the bond wasn't broken and he wasn't suicidal, and with Moiraine confirming that she also wasn't, he got confirmation (along with Logain's info). Maybe someone like Verin could have figured it out if she had the whole picture, but Alanna and co didn't even believe Lan wasn't suicidal.

I'm not entirely sure about Siuan's attitude toward Rand (admittedly, things are different in the show with Moiraine supposedly being stilled and Rand's involvement with Lanfear already suspected), but Moiraine and Lan are right to help break him out. Just as in the books, Lanfear is a needed ally for Rand at this stage, here even more so than in the books (where she mainly serves the function of providing Rand with a good teacher). In the books, Moiraine is aware of the uneasy alliance between Rand and Lanfear and she keeps silent, not even advising Rand against it and she even travels with Lanfear (in disguise) there, too.

Keeping Rand shielded in the Tower (under the watchful eye of the Black Ajah) is not going to work in the medium or long run, either, not least because he isn't going to learn shit that way.

It's true that Moiraine and Lan are doing what Ishamael and Lanfear want them to do, but I suspect that Lanfear's plans for the outcome in Falme will differ from Ishy's, and be rather more to Moiraine's liking.

They are playing with fire and so is Rand, but that was and is necessary, book and show. Lanfear's tie to Lews/Rand is a gift from the pattern that gives Rand the tools he needs.

Verin may have been acting on her own or under orders from Lanfear, while I suppose Liandrin's hit on Moiraine was under orders from Lanfear as well (since Ishamael preferred her alive).

5 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

I'm disappointed that the show didn't do more with Ingtar. It will be from left field if he's revealed as a DF. Considering that they did a good job with showing various DF motivations for turning to the dark, Ingtar got left behind on this matter. So if he dies as per the book it will be a bit of a waste.

...

Funny that no one has yet mentioned Perrin. His brief scene wasn't much, again. His storyline has felt like a boulder dragging the show down, which is really disappointing. But I hope something gets setup for him in the finale. As I mentioned, a lot needs to happen in the finale:

- Rand vs Ishy and declaring himself DR + more stuff with Lanfear

- A fight with the Seanchan that leads to Turak's death

- Mat's role and hopefully the blowing of the Horn of Valere

- Egwene's rescue

- Perrin and the Aiel doing something; possibly Hopper's death.

- Bornhald's doomed charge on Falme, which should lead to Dain starting on his hate path towards Perrin

- And Fain?

 

Agreed on Ingtar. What hasn't yet been setup at all, except for merely establishing general whitecloak presence on Toman Head, is the Whitecloaks' charge at Falme. That was a crucial point in the books in the sense that it, and the Seanchan reaction, was the direct trigger for the horn. How will that happen in the show, where Mat is seemingly all alone? Will he run into Rand ánd Perrin somehow? And how will the dagger play into this, if something happens with this in ep 8 as is seemingly being setup?

4 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

As for Rand and Moiraine... collaboration with Lanfear to a certain extent is in the books, too, where Moiraine is aware Lanfear visits Rand, and she and Egwene share worry about what is going on.

But straight up collaboration, which comes in the form of Lanfear killing at least hundreds of people and destroying the lives of many more? And Rand just straight up asks for it? That just comes across thoroughly wrong. 

 

Rand asked for her help to free him, not exactly to kill dozens or hundreds in order to do so. It was a reasonable request in his position (and he clearly wasn't happy with the way she was helping), and Lanfear could have been far more subtle.

Rand did ask her for a teacher in the books IIRC, or at least agreed readily to her proposal, and they worked together to subdue said teacher. He can't afford to say no to an alliance with Lanfear, the benefits in the long term greatly outweigh the risks and the short term disadvantages.

4 hours ago, David Selig said:

I'd have loved to have seen more of Elayne and Nynaeve, they have great chemistry together. Figuring out how to use the a'dam, for example. What we got was good, but too brief.

Perrin's stuff was again boring. Also, Aviendha getting beat up for defending herself in a fight made no sense to me.

Nynaeve's "don't encourage her" to Loial was a golden moment, loving this Elayne. The interaction between them was on point again. I hope they don't make Elayne too much like the version of the later books, and they should give her a far better storyline than the inconsequential Andorian succession.

Aviendha getting beat up - for what, losing someone in a fight where she got captured herself? - was the only part of the episode I straight up didn't like. Completely senseless, makes the Aiel seem like morons. How did they fight the Aiel war if they had to beat each other senseless everytime they lost a combatant? I never liked the whole ji and Toh thing in the books, but here it seems even more ridiculous.

On 9/25/2023 at 7:44 PM, Werthead said:

That was a boring AF race.

Hamilton giving some pretty strong warnings that unless Mercedes and Ferrari can make a big step during the winter break, Red Bull will run off with next year as well, although Vettel in an interview said he thinks it's very hard to maintain that level, and noted that Red Bull had massive dominance in 2011 and 2013 but couldn't maintain it and 2012 was a very hard-won victory, and then they fell off the barrel in 2014.

IMO Red Bull was superior in 2012 as well, but they had more competition from McLaren (which also had a very good car that year), were confronted with an Alonso in great form (even though his Ferrari wasn't good at first) and like all teams they suffered from unpredictable behaviour of the tyres. Apparently Williams was the first to understand the tyres that year, leading to Maldonado's sensational win at Spain.

1 hour ago, Corvinus85 said:

And I'm wondering how they will handle the sul'dam-can-channel-too plotline. It's likely that Renna will find herself collared in the finale, but Egeanin hasn't been cast, so I don't know how that will work next season.

The show would do well to change this aspect of the (later) books: allthough earlier books clearly set it up that the suldam reveal would break Seanchan society (or at least cause major upheaval), later books had Tuon just shrug it off with nothing negative happening to the Seanchan. This definitely needs to be changed in the show, if they get around to doing Tuon she must either change her mind on the Damane thing or she needs to be marked as an evil character to get her comeuppance along with the Forsaken. Even if they are thinking about the kind of spinoff series that RJ wanted to do but couldn't anymore due to his illness. Watchers of "wheel of time" will demand a form of justice on this front.

On 9/23/2023 at 1:34 PM, IlyaP said:

Have we worked out officially which Forsaken the show has kept and which they've removed/amalgamated? We've got, what, Ishy, Lanfear, Moggy, Graendal, Demandred, Sammael, possibly Asmodean? Who's left? And is it 8 Forsaken including Ishy? Or Ishy + 8 Forsaken?

 

The "forsaken temple" also seemed to show 8 statues, just like Stepin's little ones. Ishamael is one of them. Lanfear has been on screen, Moggy and Graendal have been named. Of the others, Asmodean is the most recognisable one from the statues (due to the instrument visible) and based on physical attributes Semirhage and Sammael are suspected as well, though the latter may be a merge of two or more male forsaken taking different characteristics of each. Demandred and Rahvin seem the most interesting candidates for the last spot.

Lanfear not naming Semirhage causes some to think that she is out (in favour of "the boys"), but the statues seem to contradict that so WAFO.

On 9/22/2023 at 4:15 PM, Poobah said:

It rather reminds me of TNG's Chains of Command with Picard's torture "there are four lights".

I was not convinced by that TNG episode, which had a rather ridiculous setup to get Picard captured in the first place and was hurt by the attempt to use some (very bad) French and by being a "plot of the week" thing, forgotten by the next week.

This WOT episode was much better, though also much harder to watch in a way. A bit ironic that it is those episodes that finally seem to give the show some recognition with critics.

On 9/23/2023 at 2:22 PM, Maia said:

Isn't Siuan suddenly changing her plans in order to visit a disgraced AS far too blatant? I mean, sure she can pretend that it is about the wedding, but didn't she demand to see Moiraine immediately? Also, she shouldn't have been traveling with just a couple of guards on her return from Caemlyn - surely they could have afforded a few extras.

I continue to be not a fan of Lan's plot.

I think her hand was forced by Alanna learning from Lan that Moiraine found the dragon reborn. With Alanna then going to the Amyrlin, she would have to react at once or it would look very badly for Alanna. And she can't trust Alanna, so she has to give a show of some kind.

Siuan's knives of air were cool though.

On 9/23/2023 at 7:15 PM, Gigei said:

Isn't he just going to be king in the sense of the queen's consort though? Like, not a ruler. So a kind, gentle, slightly dumb guy would make a good king since all he has to do is basically sire children and attend parties. Heck, perhaps the queen chose him exactly because she thinks he wouldnt be a threat. It's different in the books. In the show, he is to mary Galldrian, the Queen of Cairhien.

I think so, too. Assuming Barthanes is not a darkfriend (he may very well be, and if not him Anvaere still migt be, but Moiraine doesn't know that), he seems nice and sociable enough to at least be a good king-consort - without notable power of his own. If the children would inherit the Damodred name (rather than, what was it, Riatin?), it would even make the house proud in the longer run, as they would be actually ruling the country.

It is quite intriguing to see the interplay between Ishamael, Lanfear and Rand. It does seem like the former two both want to manipulate/force Rand to Falme, but I suppose that Lanfear does not have the same outcome in mind as Ishy ('dear'). Especially since in ep.5, Ishy claimed that the last battle would be fought in Falme, which is about as misguided as Moirain's belief in S1 that it would be fought at the Eye of the World. Unless Ishamael was lying to Suroth and doesn't believe so himself, which he has been known to do I suppose...

If he really does believe it, he is in for a shock at the end of the season.

18 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I don't think anyone is saying they should form a military border at the Blight, just that the sisters should have a constant presence there as that's where the Shadowspawn are active. Have a green or two with the leaders to direct where they would be most effective. Rotate the sisters on the Border to learn how to actually fight. I know the point is that the Tower is ineffective, but they are neglecting their chosen calling so badly it beggars belief. Obviously we are supposed to buy that most green just want the extra warders because reasons. While that may be part of it, the other ajahs at least pretend to do what they have chosen to do.

It's indeed irritating that the Tower in general, and the greens in particular did not lift a finger to help Fal Dara (with the obvious exception of Moiraine and Lan), and that Shienar wasn't even angry about that (with exception of Ingtar, I suppose).

Allthough the Red Ajah are the ajah that is presented as the most unsympathetic, actually they are possibly the only Ajah that's 100% living up to their job description. And the greens in practice probably help them (in dealing with the followers of the false dragons, for example) rather than doing their stated jobs against shadowspawn. The Grey ajay and the yellow ajah probably are useful to a degree while the Blues are just spy masters (and don't do anything with the info, Moiraine and Siuan aside) and brown and white collect knowledge but don't share it, as a rule.

11 hours ago, Maia said:

I never understood why RJ suddenly decided to make Travelling widely available and completely drop the more restrictive Skimming and Portal Stones in the bargain - shouldn't it have been clear from the start that it would cause massive problems? Transporters were at least baked  into the very basis of Star Trek  for very practical and necessary reasons. He wasn't under any such constraints, though.

Jordan could have also introduced anti-Travelling wards from AoL to curb it in later volumes, since he wanted conventional armies, their manoeuvres and their generals to be important. Honestly, history of the War of Power doesn't even make any sense without them. How could one speak of "holding territory" if non-Shadowspawn enemy forces could gate in anywhere  at any time? Why didn't anybody use Travelling in Rand's ancestral visions? Etc. Yes, Sanderson does something like that with the Dreamspike, but it was far too little and too late.

I think the show would be better off either without travelling (except through the ways), where Forsaken meetings could be done in Tel'aran'riod as it happened in ep 5 and often in the books as well, or with a different form of travelling whereby the Forsaken, Rand and maybe a few others can transport themselves only (or the people standing very close to them, for the very strongest, say). That would allow the usual jetpack stuff of zooming all over the map for some characters, while still make it meaningful to hold territory. Someone willing/able to take a small army through the ways could still gain surprise and advantage, as Ishamael and Isam did at least twice in the Two Rivers.

Regarding Aviendha, I do think the fight as shown was over the top and not too convincing. It wouldn't have been better with Gaul instead of her, though, maybe use less whitecloaks and have them clearly underestimate her instead, or have them foolishly try to take her captive rather than kill her. Or show her to be using channeling (inadvertently maybe, as Rand did in show and books), after all she will turn out to be a powerful channeler.

Sainz often shows that he can 'read' a race from within the cockpit, and his call to manage the distance to Norris so that the latter could remain within DRS range without being able to seriously threaten an overtake, was brilliant and won him the race.

While the Red Bull was shocking in qualifying, the impression is that it was already much better in race trim. I wonder if their problems will persist in Suzuka, or not.

11 hours ago, Maia said:

I  liked what they did with Dain being  somewhat decent for a  Whitecloak and the rest of villain interactions. They are really doing better work with the antagonists than RJ did - heresy, I know. Will we see Verin's mistake played out on screen, given the changes to her character? It looks that way. Also, it seems to me that Moiraine's sister is totally a Darkfriend, with her advice being what Ishy would want. Kinda odd how they are suddenly all wearing early 20-ieth century clothes which are at odds with the previously displayed Cahirienin fashions, but whatever.

 

There are certainly aspects of the books that could use improvement, and villains is one of them. So far, the show is doing great on that front.

Regarding Verin, her dialogue about there being ways around oaths suggests she had already made her mistake.

Moiraine's sister being a darkfriend is very possible, given she had to turn her family's fortunes around and with her son being one in the books, but she did help Moiraine find 'Selene' and Rand. If so, she may have gone against the interests of the Shadow and get punished soon. Unless she is being steered by Ishamael and he is undermining her to some degree, perhaps fearing her to get too much influence on Rand too quickly (as he may guess she could go for the "we could supplant the DO/Creator/Naeblis etc" spiel).

Selene also seemed to wear clothing more appropriate for the early 20th century in her Kinslayer's Dagger scenes with Rand.

10 hours ago, Poobah said:

The scene between Ishamael and Lanfear was perfect, and it was nice to have some of the others namedropped. Definitely seems like Lanfear is merged with Semirhage - they played up her sadism this episode, and put her in that all-black domme outfit at the end there where book Lanfear would exclusively wear white and Semirhage black.

9 hours ago, Maltaran said:

The casual sadism there does give more evidence for the idea that she’s been merged with Semirhage

I don't think we can be certain there is a merge, yet. Semirhage isn't exactly casually sadistic - she likes to torture (not casually, but with dedication) people she considers unworthy. What show-Lanfear is said to be, and demonstrated to some extent in this episode, is still something else: indeed casual cruelty. And most forsaken would probably have killed the male rider, to take his horse, though what she did with the woman was extraordinarily cruel. But still not a particularly Semirhage thing to do.

One of Stepin's little statues did seem quite clearly to represent Semirhage, so she may yet be in. Lanfear may have just declined to name her, as (in the books at least) they hate each other. In meta terms, it may be that they have no plans to introduce Semirhage yet, if she comes with Tuon like in the books. And while Ishamael is already very much involved with the Seanchan, he had been meddling for years with them in the books, too, and his advisory role (in the show) with them was taken by Padan Fain in the books. There could certainly be room for Semirhage at a later stage.

For reference, here is the link to a composite picture of the statues: https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fn7v8asmj2j381.jpg%3Fwidth%3D2520%26format%3Dpjpg%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Dd5347bc2135c8e3446136c03473c85c8e4699185

7 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Wait, are we saying the Dark is the more logical choice to get successful? 

It certainly can be, having a darkfriend king or queen can certainly be useful and a few assasinations - that may not be tied to Damodred if other darkfriends do it on their behalf - at the right time can do wonders. Ultimately they will regret it of course, but to rise from fallen house to royal house, why not?

Not quite sure about this possible merging of Lanfear and Semirhage, which are far more distinctive from one another than say, Demandred and Sammael and Rahvin. For the half alliance between Rand and Lanfear, that they still seem to be going for, it would be better if Lanfear is not overtly cruel (in the books, she at least claimed not to be and most of her cruelty came when she was in rage over Rand). Maybe he will convince her not to harm Moiraine, helped by Ishamael indicating he feels she could be useful.

A good idea though, to make use of conversations between Lanfear and Ishamael to show their plans. I liked it that Ishamael had put thought into what he did and didn't do to Moiraine.

Fain is probably still going to betray him: the Fade nailed to the wall or door in that village and his attitude in the cold open of the season (where he was the only DF willing or able to look up at the girl) points to that.

Moghedien was also name checked and said to be "insane", while she was the most level-headed Forsaken in the books (with the probably exception of Asmodean). Wonder where they are going with that.

That the Whitecloaks could defeat a relatively small, advance party of the Hailene isn't surprising. Bornhald the older did it in the books as well (even taking out a damane and suldan on at least one occasion), his group wasn't defeated till Turak gathered the mass of his damane against them at Falme.

Aviendha's introduction was nice, the actress is doing well, but it is a bit unfortunate that it is again a young woman shown to be wiping the floor with professional soldiers (who just defeated a Seanchan detachment and thus aren't incompetent by any means) who aren't even underestimating her (and Perrin). Sure, all the Aiel were super(wo)men at this stage of the books but this is going to draw criticism.

Interesting that Dain Bornhald was portrayed relatively sympatheticly. Will there be a child Byar or will Dain become Perrin's nemesis instead, perhaps spurned by what happened to his men in this fight?

Barthanes seemed nice enough. Big question now: is he actually a Darkfriend? Will he still be the one to tell Rand that Ishamael wants him to go to Falme? Lanfear is another obvious candidate for that, and she may even want Ishamael's plans to be thwarted.

Mat's use of the Band was interesting, yes, but it was under circumstances where the potential of channelers wasn't being realised (with, most notably, Rand himself being absent being afraid of his own power and mental health). It was also relatively small scale, compared to some of the large battles in the books.

Same goes for Rand's campaign in POD, good use of tactics but in small numbers, and with channelers dominating the fight much like artillery dominates the modern battlefield (along with airpower). The way that fight ended is a case in point why Tarwin's Gap - style armies don't stand a chance on this kind of battlefield, though.

To be clear, I hope Mat's use of the Band makes it into the show.

11 hours ago, Maia said:

Indeed. But another problem post LoC was that he wanted to eat his cake and have it too.  He made channeling warfare, partcularly when employed by male channelers (because women don't have a head for military matters in his universe, unless they are Seanchan, for some reason), so overwhelmingly powerful that conventional forces felt obsolete, but he still wanted them and great generals leading them to be important. So more implausible WSoD-straining  contrivances followed.

 

Exactly. The showrunners should decide early on if they want to go the way of having large armies and important generals (besides the well known main character with the memories) or if the want to have lots of supremely powerful channelers. But not both at the same time, because the powerful channelers make the armies and conventional generals a sideshow at best and target practice at worst. I think it makes more sense for the show to focus on channelers, given that filming large battles is very expensive and extensive channeling CGI would be needed anyway.

The dragon should indeed be special as a channeler, and giving him and only a select few others travelling (Ishamel, Lanfear, maybe one of the wondergirls, one other forsaken, ...) would be a good option.

The band of the red hand could still have its moments in battles with the Shaido (before the advent of larger numbers of combat channelers) and with the Seanchan, as long as they can find a plausible excuse why nor Damane, nor Rand and co play a (large)  role in the latter battles (the book did have more or less valid excuses for that IIRC). That's also the place where cannons could be used to effect.

6 hours ago, Poobah said:

I don't really agree. Artillery, tanks, fighter jets and even the atomic bomb didn't make infantry obsolete. Warfare evolved but ultimately you do still need boots on the ground.

Having a few hundred channelers is all well and good but it isn't enough to cover an entire continent, they get tired and moody after a few days in a row of hard channeling, mostly need line of sight to use their powers effectively, and die just as easily as anyone else and are going to be viewed as extremely high priority targets so they need to be protected. Plus the other side has channelers of their own too.

But we're not talking about modern infantry, which is transported to battle in an armoured vehicle, has body armour, camouflage, firearms, anti-tank and anti-air shoulder launched missiles, rocket propelled grenades, mortars,...

Nor does modern infantry fight anything like how WOT-style conventional armies fight (at least the vast majority of the time): they take cover and attempt to take the enemy by surprise.

The army in WOT still consists of cavalry, spearmen and bowmen, with pitiful reach compared to channelers (and cannon). And they still tend to line up neatly to be shredded by channelers. And morale doesn't tend to hold when that happens, it shouldn't even with Trollocs (who do fear for their lives and who can overrun/overpower a Fade in group if pressed).

Also consider which arsenal channelers have at their disposal, including all kinds of nasty ways to employ waygates.

Realistically, the last battle - the physical fighting part of it - should have been decided by channelers, only. Swords and spears and even bows are relics in this world, they would need at least "shocklances" and preferably an air force and powerful guns.

1 hour ago, Poobah said:

His relationship with Lanfear is definitely going to make it seem a lot more justifiable for him to struggle to attack her when the time comes.

Yes, better than the way this was handled in the books.

What the show does make harder though, is to see a way where Rand could afford to be in a sorta/kinda alliance with Lanfear while also having Moiraine as a particularly trusted advisor. It's hard to see such a dynamic for parts of season 3 of the show, the way things stand at the end of episode 4. One could think of all the unsavory things book-Lanfear would be planning to do with Moiraine, the moment she is within reach.

4 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Oh I hope they don't remove Traveling!

Yes, there are storytelling opportunities without Traveling. But those are the ones in the earlier books that are getting axed anyway. They probably should introduce it sooner, because functionally, that's what the show doing, hacking off most of the regular travel time. 

Travelling has its advantages for the plot (no need for the good old jet pack), but in the books at least, you can transport entire armies with it so maybe that aspect could be looked at. If you could only transport yourself (or a limited number of people standing very close), that would have different implications. Of course, the mechanism would have to be different then.

Then again, "being creative with doorways" had its charms in the books and the speculation around them.

11 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Thanks! Balefire essentially seems to "reset" the Pattern, radiating out from the thread or threads the balefire touched, and the reset point is further back in time the stronger the balefire wielded. So the more people you kill with more power, the longer back in time their actions, and the consequences of those actions, penetrate, scarring the Pattern.

It is probably one of the best thought out time-travel devices in fantasy. Hopefully, the show won't change any of this just for the heck of it.

[...]

It isn't true that non-channelers are merely cannon fodder. For one, they actually invent cannons, which do hurt even the Forsaken. Beyond that, though, concentrating channeler power takes trust and time, but the few battles with heavy channeler and ground troop interactions that RJ were generally excellent and I hope some make it to screen, at least, including Cairhein, Dumai's Wells, something of the Altara campaigns, and all the White Tower stuff, of course.

 

Agreed on the balefire - a quite original concept and RJ had a good grasp of the circumstances of its use.

As for the cannons, those are too slow and unwieldy at first to surprise a channeler, especially if those have fast travelling options they way channelers had in the books (by the end). Though I suppose this is something the books could yet change, as only the waygates have been introduced so far. The fast travel would make it trivial to gather the necessary numbers of channelers, so not introducing it may actually improve the dramatic possibilities (kinda like removing the transporter from Star Trek would actually open up storytelling opportunities without the need to come up with excuses why it doesn't work, again).

Cannons could still be very useful in at least one particular storyline, though.

2 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

On the other hand, physical invulnerability just isn't part of what any channeler gains, regardless of their stature with the Shadow or Light. They age more slowly. They They are resistant to more common diseases, but explicitly not to new infections they've never encountered. And this vulnerability of the Forsaken to physical hurt is, once again, part of a major showdown in the finale with emotional payoff.

[...]

Channelers are well beyond superheroes, in some ways. An average Aes Sedai is "worth a thousand lances" in the books, and that holds across the series. Till RJ died, the military and social implications of this are well thought out, and the battles in the books, especially engagements with many channelers, or a few powerful channelers, engage with what it means to have this kind of power concentrated, on one or both sides of the conflict.

There are also sociopolitical reasons that such conflicts have been rare in the main continent where the action takes place. The Aes Sedai have, basically, unilaterally disarmed themselves in any fight without the Shadow. They have a loophole regarding personal safety, but in the books, 1000 years before this, when their entire island was besieged for decades, they refused to unleash their abilities on their political rival because the PR cost for that would be terrible, which itself is a consequence of the fact that just the male Aes Sedai going mad 3000 years ago resulted in mass continental drift, climate change, and destruction and instability at a global scale that lasted for 400 years and left everyone a refugee.

About the physical invulnerability, while true in the books, in practice only one Forsaken ever fell (directly) to conventional means while  not coming back later anyway. Ishamael and Rahvin survived wounds that should have been more than lethal, especially in the former case (2 times) while not getting a new body (at that time).

In the show, Lanfear was shown using the True Power ('saa' in the eyes), which could be seen as Lanfear healing herself by immediate reaction and healing power stemming from the DO, or an instant resurrection if it was initiated by the DO himself instead of her. Either way, it works and makes the Forsaken more scary. It may still be possible to kill them by more powerful destruction (beheading or explosives/cannon, for example), on top of the well known channeling means.

Regarding the one power as a weapon, excellent points. This enormous power - powerful Aes Sedai and other channelers seem to have firepower equivalent to a small artillery battery - means that conventional forces in WOT are hopelessly outclassed and that in something like Sanderson's last battle, they would be mere cannonfodder. Given that massive battles are very expensive to film, I think the show should emphasises the power of the channelers and keep the most important fighting with the Shadow largely to channeling duels, with even Fades and Trollocs being mere nuisances compared to enemy channelers.

The actions of conventional forces are better suited to fights were for some reason, channelers on both or one side are holding back or absent. The kind of battles Mat tends to get into.

Large conventional battles as the endgame can better be scrapped in large part IMO, given that the real fight is elsewhere.

4 hours ago, karaddin said:

This just seems like quite a leap to think this is meant to be that - the only thing in common is the two characters. It's not doing any of the same things and it's far too early to fill that role - that was OG Lanfears exit from the story, this is her introduction.

I'm not assuming that scene will still be in it because there's a lot of potential changes that could really block that scene from happening, but I doubt this scene is intended as a replacement for it and if it is cut.

The two characters is not the only thing in common; we have, in both instances, Moiraine tackling Lanfear by surprise (without using the one power to attack, per se) and Lanfear seemingly ending up dead/missing. In both cases, Lanfear would get back. In both cases, Moiraine was directly protecting Rand from Lanfear (though we don't know what she was doing in the show, maybe bonding him as a warder or something). I'm not so sure the showrunners would include this scene if they also want to have the book one later. Also because of what Arakasi wrote.

3 hours ago, Arakasi said:

Few points about the forsaken here I want to make, one more speculative and a couple tied to the current Lanfear and Ishamael storylines. 
 

1. I’m fairly sure they will not be doing the body switching they did in the books with Moridin, Lanfear, Aginor, Balthamel, etc. It just doesn’t make sense in regards to the realities of tv shows and casting actors. I could see them doing it with just one that being Moridin but no more. It was a way overused trick in the books that just doesn’t translate to screen.

2. On the matter of Lanfear I just don’t think they’re going to follow the books. She was very important through book five and then came back as a neutered ineffective character. Tbh book Lanfear was disappointing most of the time anyway as she really accomplished very little. So i expect Lanfears story arc to be different.

3. For more speculative I suppose we must have talked about it last year but we know eight is the newer thirteen. Five forsaken got cut and I wonder who they are. Aginor, Balthamel, Belaal and Messana seem obvious. Are they giving Asmodeans teacher role to Logain? If so could be him. Could also be one of Rahvin or Sammael. Moghedien, Grandael I think have been confirmed by Rafe and I assume we’d keep Demandred and Semmirhage as well.

I agree, the bodyswitching is likely out as they want to keep such actors as Fares-Fares (I assume, but he is great in the role and the way TV works I don't think they would actually want to change actors for multiple characters). I also think they may just keep Lanfear around, though maybe they will temporarily incapacitate her or capture her instead.

Asmodean is very likely in though, his statue (in the Stepin episode) was the one most clearly visible as belonging to a specific forsaken. He must be one of the 8 survivors. I guess Logain won't be able to help enough.

1 hour ago, Arakasi said:

Yeah if going on uniqueness and interactions with the main characters the eight should be Ishamael, Lanfear, Grandael, Moghedien, Asmodean, Demandred, Rahvin and then one of Sammael/Semirhage/Messana depending on which storyline they focus on more.

I think that the specialised Youtube channels (such as unravelling the pattern) came down on Ishamael, Lanfear, Asmodean, Graendal, Moghedien, Demandred, Semirhage and one out of Sammael/Rahvin (with Mesaana most likely cut, role to be taken over by Moghedien or Graendal). They could make a Sammael/Rahvin hybrid I suppose (though with the name of one of them).

4 minutes ago, Arakasi said:

If they want to get to the end they have to consolidate things even if something like TGH looks like it would make a logical season. I’m fairly sure next season will be TDR plus TSR probably ending with the proclaiming of Rand as the caracarn. The early books are more packed than the later so like 1.5 books per season for the first six or seven books and then finish the show off in another 2-3 seasons.

Next season will be TSR (with maybe some leftovers from TDR, such as Tear), Rafe has confirmed this. TDR is mostly combined with TGH in s2.

A little moment I liked in this episode is Ishamael, in the cold open, looking up at the skyscrapers with a hint of regret in his eyes. Memories of the Age of Legends, I guess.

20 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Something must have have happened to the actress who plays Siuan, because yeah, she should have been around by now. The silver lining though is that at least they could write something for Leane.

 

Siuan was in the trailer, she will speak to Rand in Cairhien. Where she has been hanging out in the meantime remains to be seen.

19 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Anyway, a mixed bag for me this week. I was really liking the ending until I didn't. Just ... what? 

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I liked how Lanfear was manipulating Rand and their whole interaction after the attack, and then Moiraine pops in and slits her throat? I don't ... no, I don't like that at all. She was shimmering just before the knife hit - I wonder what that was.

 

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So they did reveal Liandrin to the girls, huh? Interesting. I really thought they'd tie her more into the Tower politics but now she really can't be. 

Give me more Mat, please. More dicing, more fun, more adventures. Also, more Hopper, that is all. I agree that how they are depicting Perrin's communication is probably the best choice for this, but it's just okay. I'm hoping that do more than just that in the future because the visions are clunky.

Oh, and what is in Cairhien for Mat? Really don't know where this particular thread is going right now.

 

Yes, I was also liking the way Lanfear was manipulating Rand (no doubt she send that Fade herself) but the ending seemed way too sudden and out of nowhere.

Moiraine could conceivably have learned Rand was with Lanfear at the inn (she didn't hide her Crescent sign), but Anvaere's men would have needed to shadow Lanfear and Rand - without either noticing - in order for her to appear there just in the nick of time. I doubt anyone in Cairhien could tie that place in the mountains to Selene/Lanfear.

Forsaken being hard to kill may be acceptable, but no idea what was she doing with her channeling.

And Lanfear did all that ground work, only to become really impatient. She should have continued to lead Rand by the nose and get him to be more attached to her, she had come so far.

Having said that, a sneak attack out of nowhere on a Forsaken is Moiraine's thing in the books, too. But I guess her book attack on Lanfear is unlikely to be in the show as well (assuming it gets a season 4), as it would be repetitive after this moment.

I also wonder why Ishy wants Mat to go there...

The first episode was good, but I loved the second one, with the "Moopsy" and Boimler's quarter problems. Lower Decks is running at cruise speed.

Meanwhile, there are rumours Amazon is in talks with CBS productions regarding Prodigy.