Joan Jett

I'm so glad Ghost didn't die!!

You seem to be missing the point entirely. This show has had many obvious girl power moments between women, that's just fact.

WHERE IS JON SNOWS SHIELD

Dude you need to do a rewatch or something. Brienne and Arya both have a talk about their swords and how theirs dads/society feel about women.

Ramsay is a terrible person, who knew.

No? It happened with Brienne and Arya too. And Arya and Lady Crane I guess.

my spidey sense is tingling.....dick joke incoming.

Jon.....the greatest swordsman to ever walk.....

Wrong thread.

Ok, but personally I still consider it to be incest since they're related by blood.

Cousins are still related, so it's still incest. Acceptable incest.

This makes absolutely no sense. Sansa is Jon's sister and Jon is Sansa's brother, whether they were close or not. They grew up as siblings in the same castle. I really don't understand why you're making this big leap just because there was indifference and resentful feelings between them. That doesn't erase the fact that they viewed each other as siblings and they still do. Sansa and Arya weren't very close. I guess you think they're not emotionally siblings either? Lmao. This might be your most ridiculous argument yet.

Tywin and Joanna is a bad example to use. The difference is that Joanna and Tywin weren't raised as brother and sister while Jon and Sansa were. Emotionally they are siblings. Like I stated already, GRRM only forms incestuous relationships between siblings with close bonds. My point still stands.

Technically it is still incest. They're cousins. It's just incest that is allowed. Also Jon and Sansa still grew up siblings. When it comes to siblings falling in love, there is always a close bond as foundation. My point still stands. And those Sandor/Jon parallels are impressive, but it's really not an indication of Jon/Sansa at all. There is no foreshadowing or hints in the books that Sansa and Jon will ever be together.

Sorry for misinterpreting you, but you still haven answered my question. What red herrings quotes were you referencing? Also can you elaborate more on these Jon/Sandor parallels? Facial disfigurement? That's it? And like I said before, when GRRM writes incestuous relationships it's always with a close sibling bond as the foundations. That's his pattern. I already gave you examples. You're saying I have no insight and yet you're the one who said that GRRM will write Jon marrying Sansa and raising Ramsay's kid.....OK.

GRRM is not behind the show now or ever really. He wrote some episodes in the earlier seasons, but he never had real control over the show. It was D&D who decided to put Sansa in Winterfell, all the way back in 2012. GRRM had nothing to do with it. He didn't even tell D&D the endings of the characters until 2013. So you're saying that because Sansa wanted to be Queen in the beginning that she will end up being queen and marrying Jon? Sorry but I doubt GRRM would ever write that, just going off of the themes and messages that already exist in the books. Sansa already has a romance with the Hound going on anyway. And you're forgetting that now neither Arya or Sansa want to be Queen. You say that Sansa becoming Queen would be a twist, but it really wouldn't. Everyone already expected her to become Queen back in book one. Arya on the other hand would be completely different. Literally no one expects the wild and unladylike tomboy to end up Queen, but it be very much in GRRM's nature to write it. I'm "the one who is emotionally invested?" Where did that even come from? I never said anything about you being "emotionally invested" so I'm really not sure you're saying that. All I did was disagree with the connections you were making. As for the question I asked you, I'm genuinely curious. What "subtle hints" are you talking about? It's doesn't even make sense to say that multiple "subtle hints" are a red herring. Subtle hints are well hidden and not easy to spot. It takes multiple rereads to figure them out and make connections. Red herring hints are not well hidden; they are meant to mislead the reader from the actual clues. Anyway what red herring quotes were you referring to? Because I have a feeling that you actually don't know any. I think you're just blindly making the assumption that any and all potential Jon/Arya hints are "red herrings" because you want Jon to end up with Sansa instead. And there is no Sansa/Jon foreshadowing in the books, nothing subtle or obvious.

I know of the connections between Arya and Lyanna. Ned and Bran make it clear that she looks and acts likes her aunt. But Jon mussing Arya's hair has nothing to do with Lyanna. Neither does him calling her "little sister". Those things are just apart of their special connection to each other. Sansa isn't pregnant and GRRM would never write that because Sansa doesn't marry Ramsay in the books.....unless you think that Jon will marry pregnant Jeyne Poole? Also lol how can 'subtle' hints be a red herring? Why? Because you don't want it to happen? Do even know the specific quotes and passages in referring to?

Ok? There are still parallels, land plenty more between Jon and Jaime. Also what does Jon mussing Arya's hair have to do with her looking like Lyanna? Idgi.

LMAO. There already are parallels between the Jon/Arya relationship and the Jaime/Cersei relationship though? Both pairs of siblings have the same hair and eye color. Jaime and Cersei are twins and Jon and Arya are the only two who have the stark look. Both Jon and Jaime recieve letters about their sisters in trouble, the pink letter and letter from KL. They also both have injured sword hands (Jon's was burned and Jaime's was but off). Compare these two quotes: Jon looks at his burned right hand and thinks of mussing Arya's hair. Jaime looks at his stump and thinks of stroking Cersei's hair.

No, it's not completely unrelated. It's what the author planned at some point. (And even if it was, why did you even mention it then?) And there is a significant amount of set up for a romance between Jon and Arya in AGOT. Anyway my point was that GRRM doesn't write incestuous romances between distant siblings. He writes them between siblings who are close. I've already given examples to support this. And I'm aware that cousins are allowed to marry in Westeros. I never implied anything different.

This doesn't make much sense to me. You think that GRRM created distance between Jon and Sansa in the very beginning because he wanted to form a romance between them, yet you acknowledge that Jon and Arya, who have a close sibling bond, were originally supposed to be a couple . With the way GRRM writes incestuous relationships, it always begins with a strong sibling bond as foundation for the romance. Jaime and Cersei, Aegon and Rhaenys, Aemon and Naerys, Jaehaerys and Shaera. Jon and Arya would fit this pattern, Jon and Sansa would not. And no, Jon doesn't have a thing for redheads. Not in the books anyway.

Perhaps time for a rewatch then? He smiles at Olly, he smiles while joking with Sam, he smiles during that meeting with the NW when he makes that guy go do sewage work. Probably a few times more. And I haven't watched that season in months.

No? Not at all. He smiled in season 4 and season 5 as well.

I have had the same issue.

Finally watched it and I agree with you :rofl: it's kind of hard to look at Maisie the same way I used to