Curled Finger

I hope to see a lot more of Bran than simply helping out at Winterfell. There are so many possibilities for his character at these many junctions, as in Mereen. Beyond solving left over riddles and unanswered questions Winds should propel all these characters forward, resolving storylines and getting to the real points here. There should be an end in sight for everyone. Winds should separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak in narrowing the many storylines down to a few that are left to matter. There was much hubub for a while about eliminating POVs but not much since. Realistically, if there are fewer locations to report on fewer POVs will be required to tell the tale. That doesn't have to be bad thing and could make A Dream of Spring a manageable thing.

Hey @Green Stag, welcome. That's not a bad point, really, though you would think politically the powers that be would force Robert to stay at Storm's End and farm the younger brother out. (And that heel of a king would send for one of the orphans to court.) I bet the Castellan would have liked it better that way. Looking at it that way you have to think that Jon Arryn, Hoster and Rickard were some smooth talkers getting Robert away. Imagine Castellan's eyes crossing when Bob reaches his majority and refuses to come home! Looking over the terms of the arrangements as I understand them, Robert got the short end of the deal. Jon Arryn got a potentially fertile young wife to ensure his name and place in the Vale. Tully married both his daughters to high lords or high lords in waiting. Rickard married his only daughter to a high lord. All Robert got was an only daughter...and Ned, he did get Ned.

Wards do seem to be something punitive against rebellious fathers, at least as the northern clansmen tell it. Lysa is terrified of her boy going anywhere, but that is a really unhealthy relationship. Quentyn Martell was something of a peace offering and cost Doran his marriage. No, fostering from a sense of cultural exchange and strengthening allies does seem localized with Jon Arryn. Not many men like him around all the time. I think @frenin has most of the right of it. Robert had a family in the Vale, a place he loved and was loved. Though Ned was fond of his time there, he hasn't got the star crossed yearning for it Robert has. Ned had a family of his own he loved. Doesn't sound like Robert did, despite Maester Cressen's best efforts. I think Stannis could have benefitted a great deal from some time with Rickard Stark or better yet, Doran and Oberyn Martell. Expose him to more of the world than the murky gloomy island fortresses he sheltered in. Get some sunshine and snow on his face, maybe a little laughter and good food, a rousing song or two. Might have given him stronger people skills. Might have made him a good king one day.

Perhaps the leeches are the the connection, not the swamp. See, I like, with zero basis at all, this mention of the Boltons being the Red Kings with no explanation. That gives me permission to let my mind go completely nuts, which it likes a lot. I have decent clues as to the identity of the Warg Kings and know who the Marsh Kings and Barrow Kings were as well as a good idea what their particular magics were. The descendents of the Kings of Winter who seem to have all of these powers with the glaring omission of necromancy but the definite addition of skinchanging inclines me to believe the Boltons may have been those magical original skinchangers. Everyone knows I'm terrible with symbolism, but even I get the Flayed Man here. It's all about taking skin. Leeches are about taking blood, hence all the vampire references. No one can say I'm wrong about the Red Kings being skinchangers because we don't know. Ha! There are so few Boltons and no real lineage to follow. I'm not really sure how that old Bolt-On idea goes, but it's something like Roose is just waiting to take Ramsay's skin. That's just delicious as wicked horrible goes. Maybe I get to see them both die twice!

Jon's not dead. Though I do think he's got to be silent for a good long while and there will be some very cryptic Ghost thoughts sprinkled about. I'm not sure we will get a Ghost POV. My head hurts just thinking about reading that. No, I suspect Bran in Summer and Bran and maybe some misinterpreted Melisandre visions for Jon's wellness checks. Maybe a weird Jojen green dream or two. I do understand the direct beauty of Jon's vows being fulfilled to the NW in being dead. I think being stabbed by his own people is good enough. Though I also think the small old school faction is about to experience their own reeducation on what the Nightswatch really is now and Jon won't actually have to disavow himself. I see the NW becoming mobile and much closer to what it should be than what it was. The Nights Watch is not a political order. Once the political rats are tossed out on their ropes it will get down to the business of doing what it should be doing. Ah growing pains. Jon on the other hand, may have to become a political being, particularly if magic is required to restore his health. He may be torn from the Nights Watch as we saw in the moments prior to his stabbing. He may get some of that near death woo woo and return a man on fire. Hard to say what Jon will be, but I hope all the petty stuff, the bastardy, the vows, the one family over another foolishness falls away. I think Jon is strong enough of character to have it all. He could do a lot of good if he just went out and did it without all these rules holding him back from everything.

Maybe Mushroom was as mad as all the players involved, too, Ser. I find his comments an interesting addition to a very dark historical recounting. This makes him rather singular and multifaceted to me. As I am fond of saying the stories strike us all at different places. I'm not trying to argue Mushroom's actual stance on anything here, only bring what I thought his take could have been. This brothel queens thing being Mysaria's great idea, might have been spread to show how merciful Rhaenyra was for not following advice. As in most things Martin, we don't get all the whole story. Or maybe it's written so that we may make our own inferences. Eustace and Gyldayn aren't particularly interested in telling a complete story.

I get that. We just don't see any of it, just rumor that I think is fairly well placed honestly. Jace makes a marriage pact with Cregan. His firstborn to a child Cregan already has I think. It's a good deal and I'm OK with that right there. Starks are nothing if not honorable. Robb was great that way. Getting to see him sell his soul for the right thing. Gads that was horrible. Not so much with Jace though it's clear with more story the implication is there. This is clearly on your mind today. Lay it out for me. What does a marriage between Jace and Sara bring to the Dance and larger ASOIAF story? Just to you, not anyone else.

I don't think the Sara Snow thing was a thing at all. It's another relationship that did not have time. Boy or girl, there just wasn't time and the circumstances were not right. (Of course, I am thinking love affair and not fling here.) Jace needed to exact agreement and get the hell home. He had a war council to serve on and ships to burn. He was his mother's heir, his grandfather's heir. He didn't have time for any of this in the North. There was time for a goofy dragon to lay a clutch of eggs though, if it had a mind to do so. I just can't imagine how it got down into the crypts.

All true, and yah, it's so easy to forget what happened in which story and made it where. A thousand pardons. Another thing that occurred to me post script was that Mushroom may have been purposefully muddying waters to protect Rhaenyra in some weird misguided way. I was thinking about Jace's trip to the Vale, The Sisters and Winterfell. Starts with that preposterous bit with Jane Arryn, a quiet win in the Sisters then utter chaos in Winterfell, at least according to Mushroom. We get in all after the fact but I wonder if Mushroom was coming up with all of this as raven poured in. Raven 1: Dear Mom, Lord Cregan is a jerk and doesn't like me. This is a weird place, but beautiful country. They have hot springs Vermax sticks close to. How do you feel about marrying the baby off? Do you need another lady in waiting by chance? I'm stuck here a while. Love you lots. The council deflates so Mushroom begins a spin campaign of his own and starts the Sara Snow rumor making the talks in the north appear to be going far better than they are. Or the clutch rumor intimating a sort of northern base because the Blacks are so tight with the Winterfell. I get that Mushroom was a fool. But maybe he wasn't stupid is all I'm getting to.

Maybe I am just too old fashioned. I think relationships take time. I know we hear how the lads hunted and did stuff together, but it sounded like a lot of Jace winning Cregan's confidence to me as he didn't sound particularly welcome at Winterfell at first. There were so many plates in the air I don't see how there was time to build a love affair, not amid all the political stuff going on--arranging marriages, setting up rumors, hiding Easter, I mean dragon eggs. I imagine there was a tremendous lot of pressure on both men at the time with war brewing and all.

Mushroom is an interesting source to cite in a history book. Forget the fact that Rhaenyra is supposed to have been stricken from being named queen in the histories. Gotta ask yourself why Mushroom? He says the most inflammatory lascivious things every time. Until the very end where even a thick headed castle wall such as me can see how much he loved Rhaenyra. I don't think he just realized that at the end when she was gone. I think he always loved her deeply. Armed with this information I try to go back and read his scathing statements with that in mind. What is he trying to paint Rhaenyra as when he insinuates she took seduction lessons in order to nail Criston Cole? (Misguided innocence? True Love?) What is he trying to do for Rhaenyra when he hints that Daemon may have taken Alicent's maidenhead? (More misguided innocence? Alicent has no virtue?) Among the strangest claims Mushroom makes is that he partook in the seduction lessons. That made my head spin...until I realized his great love for Rhaenyra. I doubt it happened, but I bet he watched and wished he was part of the training. And not in any particularly unsavory way, either. I think it was a simple case of wanting a fully fleshed out (fantasy of) love in Mushroom's case with Rhaenyra. She may not have been the Realm's Delight her entire life. But she was definitely Mushroom's.

I both love and hate the idea of bastards for Jace and Aemond. Honor and mystery hang in the balance. What I can get behind 100% is hidden dragon eggs in Winterfell. Can't imagine what anyone can do with them, but the legend alone is very cool. Back to bastards. Seems to me we might have actually heard of one of these children in light of how few Targaryens remained at the end of the Dance. Sara Snow sounded more like a ghost, made up from whole imagination or fancy where Alys Rivers was someone you could bite right into. We got to see her and her belly. Alys isn't hard to believe. Jace may have been close as brothers with Cregan Stark and that's great for a very young envoy. Mushroom has a lot of fun painting the young prince as quite a Casanova though there is none of that talk at court or on Dragonstone. All we get is a dutiful son. I am dubious as to Jace's willingness to toss his betrothal to his cousin out the window. His mom and step dad not to mention grandparents aren't known for their keen patience and understanding after all. Ace showing with Alys Rivers and Aemond, discarding the whole Jace/Sara Snow thing but I'm holding those dragons eggs as I think it's got possibility, lots of possibility.

OR Victarion could die and Dany's diplomats could simply take the fleet. One thing I neglected to mention in my little list of miracles I expect Tyrion to perform is fix Viserion. This horn Vic has may or may not play into it and gaining a rider may or may not play into it. But I do expect that Tyrion will form some sort of "bond" with this dragon which gives Dany's diplomats armies and at least one dragon to reign bloody hell on any captain who tries to give them any trouble. Don't forget there is disease of plague scale going around outside the gates. It wouldn't be hard for all of them to die. We don't have the first clue what Moqorro has done to Victarion.

I love that. This little dive into yet again something new was a refreshing way to examine characters as is looking at them as "green". Amazing what you open up to this way. I'm not so sure about Shadrich in the big picture, but I've given Theon a lot of thought among the heroes. He's broken now, but he has shown he's got what it takes. It's hard for me to waive his expert shooting of the wildlings who took Bran and the mercy killing of the Ironborn captain at Moat Cailyn and keeping Jeyne reasonably safe. He's not a complete Reek.

Curious so many folks have ideas about Bran interfering in what awaits Jamie and this is a cool idea for many reasons. Deepen Jamie's er, descent into further decency. I dunno. Lot of ways this bit with Stoneheart can go. As @Angel Eyes says, LSH sounds like a wraith with her mind set. It will take a miracle to fix this. I don't think Brienne can say anything to sway her. She is unreasonable. I have hoped that remnants of her life will visit her, she's got some reminders, but more, maybe Blackfish, I dunno, just more reminders of her living. Even through Beric's many changes he was essentially the same man though lessened and I realize Stoneheart has been through a longer um down time between life and death. And dammit all, she is not wrong. Not with the Freys. I hate what she does to them. She doesn't like it. It's just ice justice; she's trying to kill them all for killing Robb. Dude, I want to hang 3 more of them. The Red Wedding was dirty. I hope she gets a Bolton. Just one of them. Just Roose. Just Once. Yah, I want to read that. Ice justice, hell yes. Then I will come back here and tell you how much I hate myself. Gads the Red Wedding was dirty. Still I have to think that under all that Mother Merciless if she knew even one of her children survived it would impact her heart and actions. She died pitiably believing her children were all lost or dead or even worse in Sansa's case, a prisoner of war. Watching her eldest son killed in front of her after she begged for his life. Yah, I get LSH a lot more than I ever got Catelyn Stark. Jamie Lannister is more valuable alive than dead. Again, alive this woman was a political player. One hopes she recalls this in her afterlife so that it may serve her. He makes every major decision being made in the entire Riverlands these days in the name of The Crown. I do hope Lady Stoneheart is savvy.

Yah, but Victarion doesn't think he's doing Euron's bidding. He's going to marry Dany! DunDunDunDun! Yep, diabolical genius that Victarion. Not only that, you've got a bit of "who's in charge" going on among the sell sword armies and Selmy not feeling all warm and fuzzy about what's coming. And one freaky Red Priest of indeterminate strange power. Possibly an Archmaester and a pickled Maester as well. Slavers Bay is a veritable fireworks factory waiting for a matchless eyed dwarf with a silver tongue to come in and organize stuff. What else would Mr. Diplomacy be there for if not pump Selmy up (if he survives), rally the R'hllor faction, unite the armies, sign Marwyn up, erect a cool state pyre for Aemon and get Victarion totally on board and get Daario back?

That gentling ship has sailed...Would be better if some foul mouthed gloomy gimpy dude would just bust him outta there.

Hrm, a quandary. Stranger is the most ill tempered horse ever written. Shaggydog may just suffer bad training. Stranger is even bad after being rescued and given loving protective shelter on the QI. Shaggydog thinks trying to bully unicorns is fun. Still, it's true what you say about Stranger being capable about laming a person for life. Just shows he is likely pulling punches with the Brothers on the QI showing some self restraint and better training. Shaggydog is therefore worse, winning baddest puppy award here.

OK then, he was only waiting for Aegon to become king so he could retire...to a nice cabin in The Gift!

Perhaps Brynden Rivers had no design on the Iron Throne for himself and was only a loyal servant of the Targaryen royal family?

@Alester Florentmay want to consider sources here, too. Kyle the Cat is absolutely no one. He is a hedge knight for a lesser house. He protects a toddler. Not like this guy is dialed in on the hot gossip. Maynard Plumm has got to just be having a good time speaking with him at all. For all it's worth.

She is great, though. Her quest for power beats any freeway pile up any day of the week.

You know, I liked both of them at first, but didn't love Dany or Jon at first. I loved Tyrion, Varys and Little Finger. That's story, Baby. I learned to love Jon and Dany over many reads because they are great characters, every bit as great as Tyrion and far more than the weasels. I don't know, I don't get it, not when there are so many really good conversations, like their flaws and strengths which are fascinating, not cheap comparisons. They are supposed to mirror each other in many ways. I never saw the competition, don't understand the argument.

To be honest I think these prophecies will end up being a big rug pulled from beneath us. In this backward world of magic and feudalism it fits perfectly. It's hard to be modern us reading ancient them sometimes. I will cry if The Others end up being the good guys. Still, those whacky Targs have got their ideas about saving the world and TPTWP. I find Bloodraven dialed in with the old gods really interesting right here as I'm mostly sure that's not what he meant to find at all, dreams and visions be damned. Looks like his Blackwood side got the better of him. Ah irony! You brought up a great example in Rhaegar & Lyanna. Gads, could anything make that fine? No, not even prophecy. Then my reader's mind kicks in and yells "it is a magical world, of course it does". I think that's where the line is between fantasy and reality. I wouldn't put up with Lyanna and Rhaegar in real life. In these pages I am permitted to spend hours and hours within the suspension of normal beliefs. I like to think it opens my mind a little bit and makes me more critical of all the bs I hear in the real world. Then again, I don't actually live in a magical world, do I?

Why is it so hard to just like both Jon and Dany? Why does there have to be division like children in kindergarten? Both stories are about heroes removing boundaries from people, uniting people, freeing people. They are both good kids. They both screw up. They both do amazing things. It's got to be the sex. Dany has better and more sex than Jon. Of course, Dany isn't locked up in a convent, either. Maybe it's the climates. Some of these arguments are absurd.