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Curled Finger

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  1. Welcome, @Zzz_243. No, I can't see power mad Cersei ever killing herself. She is a woman with a mission. She's believes she is her father's daughter. Even locked away by the Sparrows, her despair never reached doing herself harm. It is always harm to others and coming out on top. Cersei is the smartest person in every room in her own mind. She simply is not self destructive in ways obvious to herself. As to this prophecy, Cersei killed her best friend immediately following the consultation. The world is Cersei Lannister's oyster. She is too egotistic to know when she's beat. Someone's younger sibling will have to do her in.
  2. If there really was a Night King, and we don't have anything other than stories to say there were, it fits. Even with the stories we do have, the NK and TLH are separate in separate times. There are many folks who incorporate the 2. Who am I to argue that? I am a sword geek. That's what grabs me in the first place. Gotta be in the tale for a reason. Sam and Jon and Salador Saan all think they know the reason. I'm thinking there was a great deal of like random, untamed magic about once. Be that creatures possessed of elemental magic or Heroes who possessed very specific types of talent, skill and deviousness which became the foundations of the great houses. I don't think magic itself is good or bad, intention is entirely within the wielder. Martin says the seasonal chaos is due to magic. I think the seasonal chaos had some role to play in the availability of magic in this place. We are told TLN sought out the COTF who interceded for humanity. We are told NK was just a nasty oath breaking piece of work. Before there was the idea of the COTF creating the Others as weapons against humanity I reckoned they were unlucky vessels for this random magic. Like they were simply folks or types of folks who lived and thrived in the cold but became corrupted when this chaotic magic was introduced to them. I thought it more or less made them inhuman which caused their hatred of those who retained their humanity. The weapon idea is better. The COTF interceded and intercession is an interesting concept when the world is dying and entire expeditions are killed, lost or changed in search of the COTF. Does not say the COTF fixed anything, only that they interceded and provided weapons. It was after the Others were thrown back (not defeated but exiled with authority) that the COTF actually became productive members of Westeros in the building of the Wall and yearly donations of dragon glass. I always read that to mean the COTF signed on to help protect Westeros after TLN. All these words and we still don't really know what the Others are or why they are or what they want. I appreciate your take on this matter and the whys. Your idea is as good as any other I have read. Thank you for sharing your ideas. The conversation is so much easier to follow when we know where we all stand.
  3. I like to read theories about the Others so we are well met, Ser. Your ideas above remind me of the 1st humans being thrown out of the trees. We were all a species, but ours was weak and forced to live on the ground. We learned to walk and speak and do stuff while our stronger cousins remained in the trees living the good life. Not that I think the Others share so much commonality with men. We have some very ancient legends in ASOAIF, but there are no tales of an ice age, which I would anticipate if the Others were eternal or even 1st humanoids. We have a Long Night that lasted generations. (Just for fun, how about TLN killed off the Giants and the 1st Men merely took credit for it?) Humans wouldn't be able to survive many generations, even short ones in the conditions Old Nan describes. Still, this does seem to be the only actual event, regardless how far reaching. I expect TLN lasted less than 30 years. In my thinking this makes it either a conquering effort or a defensive mechanism. 30 years (even 100 years which I doubt seriously) does not indicate the Others ruled worlds, but a place that was expanded to make a wider habitat. Or just a wider defense? Magic definitely seems to have left the world or dried up...until now, where we see Others and dragons and all that wonderful weird magic of the North. Man did just fine without it, of course, there was no real reason to have it for a long time. Is it a cycle? Is it a response? Which part is responding? Is it a case of Others to magic or magic to Others? If the COTF are actually behind the Others did they lose control? If not how did the little COTF survive all this time? Are they akin to Tolkien's elves and it is simply time for them to move on? As with yours and the poster above, I really enjoy the metaphorical conversation. However, I think the unity has more to do with men and cooperation than cooperation with the Others or even the COTF. I expect this event will be the COTF's and likely the Others' final stand. Men need to cease fighting each other if they are to win against magic gone so very wrong.
  4. I think a good many folks see the Others as you do--metaphors for some larger problem. However, this is a tale of magic and these Others do seem to represent a threat to the pretty non magical masses in Westeros. My biggest sticking point with noncombative thinking there won't be a fight is all the build up for the fight, most specifically in magic swords and skin changing and dragons. As small and rare are magic swords and creatures and psychic abilities are in Westeros, they are still there...surely for something?
  5. Thanks for your thoughtfulness in reply. Your definitions of Other only illuminate how weird this group is compared to everyone else. I figure that as strange as places in east Essos are--Asshai, Land of the Shrykes, the Five Forts, Cities of the Bloodless and Winged Men, the Others of Westeros have to be the hands down strangest of them all. So strange they don't even get a descriptive name, like Ice Wraiths or something like that. The best ancient and contemporary people can do is Others. You focused on human shape. We know they can communicate with each other and that indicates intelligence. They are bipedal, they have weapons. They share commonality with the humans we know of. As I understand the Others perhaps the best name we've been given is "cold gods". Of course, we don't know the cold gods are the Others, but I would be willing to bet lunch with drinks they are. The coming Long Night is going to be so bad...whatever their intentions, we can be certain they won't be any good at all for humans.
  6. Although I subscribe to the possibility that The Others may indeed be the end all beat all bad guys here, their existence and motives are really interesting. I still remember thinking the Wildlings were The Others and not getting it at all. Why would people do things like this as told by Old Nan. After all, the Wildlings really were othered by the rest of civilized Westeros. The clashes between the Wildlings and Nights Watch are legendary making both parties very foolish. So not Wildlings but still really other. Not ghosts or vampires or even aliens but a group of beings so set apart Others is the best name humans could come up with. That has a very cool and very creepy vibe to it. Bring 'em on. I am more than ready for all that dark, inexplicable magic!
  7. Welcome Bilakos. Everyone gets something different from the story. I'm still waiting for those funky Others to belly up to the camp fire. No. ASOIAF lost none of it's appeal even when Jon was stabbed and Euron started killing everyone. Tywin was a great villain and I loved to hate him. Now that Tywin is gone I can really enjoy Cersei.
  8. Aerea Targaryen took Balerion at what? 10 years of age? 12? Still a child claims the behemoth. Area is angry, not necessarily ambitious or violent or strong unless dragons work like poltergeists and feed off chaotic hormones and energy. Maybe he simply hated teenagers. I think it's likely all the points have to be checked, attitude, blood and opportunity.
  9. Interesting. May I point out that the Greyjoys seem to experience these moments in faith? Theon is raised with the Old Gods, the 7 and the Drowned God. He is currently all about the old gods. Aerion was a party animal, farthest wizzer in the country and proud of it then he has a transformation and becomes a devotee of the DG. Euron seems to have been possibly touched by the OGs young, currently forsakes all gods yet needs an heir worthy of "him"? Who is him? Asha raised within the worship of the DG is an atheist. That Victarion would move from one type of worship to another doesn't seem so strange to me. The Greyjoys seem to do this fairly regularly.
  10. Wow, some really good points here. As to the Royce religious leanings with the motto We Remember coupled with ancient armor inscribed with runes I am inclined to believe House Royce may well still worship whatever gods the original 1st Men brought over with them--before the old Gods were introduced. The preservation of that armor along with the replication of it for tourney purposes is plenty odd, but strikes a feeling of dedication, of stewardship taken seriously. For all it's worth.
  11. Yah a 2nd Dance with 3 dragons is tough to get really excited about...At this point we have 2 dragons in Mereen where Victarion and that lousy dragon binder are on a collision course of some sort. Viserion seems to be injured. Maybe Tyrion can help and maybe not. Maybe injured will make him more susceptible to the horn? A 2nd DoD would be a great lot of fun if those dragons are all pitted against each other. Can they be? Sure, they need riders and those riders' wills. If all 3 met in the skies above Westeros as adversaries that could be fun to read. More fun than wildfyre at any rate. Lots of people believe Euron will get a dragon--he is the Batman of this story--he's got all the cool toys. Come to think of it, there are parallels o' plenty between Euron and the Joker. I like it, give him a dragon and all the toys the Celtigars are hiding away. I don't know that Aegon will get a dragon. How would that happen? Didn't work out that well for Quentyn. Drogon is bonded to Dani. If she's her normal combustive self she won't dig lil nephew screwing her invasion up. So what, Rhaegal sees Aegon on the battlefield and decides he's the guy he wants? More likely Rhaegal sees Aegon and he looks like a tasty treat. I just don't see it. I'm not sure what I expect of Jon. I can't see him coming back with purple eyes and silver gold hair or that quirky sense of entitlement peculiar to Targaryens. A dragon could be the single way he can get his otherness across all the Stark values stuff. A warg with a dragon. That's bitchen really.
  12. Dude, this is a bitchen topic. Naturally, in reading through my thoughts jumped to so many of those crazy conversations that really delve into the story we are told. I will no doubt forget half of what I wanted to comment on--sorry Man--this is GREAT conversation... Mind you I only got as far as @Seamsopening remark before trying not to spoil an answer here. It was Seams idea that Ice is a shortened name for Justice insofar as Stark swords go. I will go back and read her reply but when she starts out with it is going to be a ride--a torrent of ideas and inspiration and fun. Can't think of a better person to ask for anagrams and word puzzles and connections... Now to my own small contribution here. Your bit above recalls my journey into the very weird history of Valyrian Steel. If you go by the stated timeline without reading very deeply into history VS was only invented at most 5000 years ago. The Andals are thought to have invaded about 6000 years back. So for VS as we know it, it didn't exist for the original invading Andals. We know the timeline is screwy, but this is all I had to try to determine when all the swords came into play. We know the NW employed dragon glass as described by Sam. There is also a mention of dragon steel, but I'm not sure that was actually used during the Long Night. Our oldest known weapon is Dawn, forged from the falling star as was the Dayne home, Starfall. I bet that's a cool thing to behold and I do hope Hotah or Obara takes us there. Can't wait to see how GRRM describes it without his limited maester's cap on. What may predate or at least be contemporary with the Dayne's stuff is Royce's magic armor. Remember back in the Hand's tourney when Bronze Yohn's boys both wore replicate armor? Arya thinks it didn't do them a whole lot of good. Our tale opens with Waymar Royce, a third son I believe some families consistently sacrifice to the NW. I suspect this has something to do with a pact if not THE pact forged in magic and blood. Feeding the Wall these basically useless 3rd sons recalls the 79 Sentinels--a tale of desertion of duty. It's also a tale of a father's great love for his son, which is understated in ASOIAF unless you read the Stark kids' thoughts on their father. ASOIAF is not all gore and guts, there is some lovely tenderness written into some of these relationships between parents and children. So back to the runes, sorry about that. We know the 1st Men were brutal people, but obviously not without some brains. They did end the LN after all. Magic exists in this world. I got no reason to believe the runes weren't magic however lame or weak that may seem though there is no denying that defense is crucial in any conflict. So maybe that's all they had--defensive letters or symbols that protected them. Who knows maybe it worked like a molly on the 1st Men and just made them hairy enough to withstand the cold of the north. Nah, gotta be more to it. They had better weapons than the COTF. The only fly in this ointment is the Iron Born who are said to be 1st Men and I know of no other name or language they had that was different from the whole wave of initial invaders. The name IRON Born alone indicates they had greater knowledge and process of working metal into weapons superior to the 1st Men of the north. The IB are known for their fine workmanship of iron. And there is that curious wording about foul black weapons that drank the very souls of those they slew. Bitchen, we know VS at least where Brienne and Jon are concerned, seems to have a mind of it's own? If you've ever read Discworld, this is how I imagine VS works. Similarly, the IB foul black weapons recall memory, Sorrow and Thorn. It's hard to tell with GRRM. Let's compromise with those foul dark weapons being not VS, but something else. Maybe dragon steel? Just a few random thoughts. It is a wonderful conversation. Sorry to be so long winded.
  13. Oh for crying out loud, all I did was tab! Red Rain Blackfyre Heartsbane Lamentation Lady Forlorn Widows Wail Orphan Maker Truth Vigilance Oathkeeper Dark Sister Blackfyre Brightroar Dark Sister Lady Forlorn Ice Blackfyre Our lone sword with no match is of course, Longclaw. Hope that helps a little.
  14. Hey @Seams, thanks for the call out. I will do my best to help with the pairings of named swords, et al. By my reckoning by name alone the following "match" or reference each other in some way... Dawn Lightbringer Nightfall Ice
  15. A bizarro Florida indeed. Keep in mind there are hot springs that warm the walls of Winterfell, so there is some geothermic possibility at play. For all it's worth I am originally from Florida and though it was usually 80 degrees on Christmas there, there have been many times the citrus crops were ruined by freezes. Swamps freeze too, but I'm thinking this warm spring at Winterfell may have tentacles in the Neck that could protect it from 80' snows. And magic. Always magic. If wildlings are the closest to the original 1st Men then the Crannogmen are the closest to the COTF humans can get.
  16. Sorry it took me so long to reply you know my mind was spinning with questions! LynnS, I wonder what it could mean if Crasters women did go underground. They didn't seem totally happy with the way they left their home. Most of use anticipate Bran will make use of the underground tunnels and rivers to get away from BR's cave. You've got me imagining the women capturing Bran and trying to give him over to the Others. What stops that train from derailing is Gilly not wanting to lose her baby. Her sweet mother's love was focused on the living human being as opposed to some distant sacrifice. She really did everything she could to keep that boy which sounds nothing like the talk she was given about the well, unopposable sacrificing. How exactly did Craster women feel about the sacrifices? Like you I believe places are significant here. Beyond the Wall we've got far fewer places to zoom in on. Whitetree is as good a place as any for ancient arcane knowledge to be stored and passed generation to generation. Make Craster's back story pregnant with just the worst possibilities. My head's going to explode with crazy ideas about the Others.
  17. Hey Wiz, it's always great to read your posts. No arguments here only a small point for consideration insofar as wildlings sacrificing... We read in the World Book that there are wildlings who worship strange gods. Further, we read about the 1st Men having their own strange gods they brought with them to Westeros. In that the wildlings are said to be true remnants of the 1st Men perhaps those strange gods are the very gods they brought, perhaps they are the Others and maybe they are weirwoods, but it's just left without further elaboration. Rereading the passages got me wondering if the 1st Men didn't bring the Others over. Just for fun thought!~
  18. Sorry, I hit the submit reply before finishing above. 1st things 1st! Yes, the Blackwoods have an enormous tree at their home, Raventree Hall. Thousands of ravens flock to it though it has been dead for many years. Those lousy Brackens... Ah ha--a most curious and fun mystery that whole Pact of Ice and Fire deal. We do, however, have the possibility of a union between the bastard sister of Lord Stark and one of Rhaenyra's sons. Love it! Not a Stark, but the Blackwoods are First Men and our Bloodraven is at least north/south First Men/Targ match his own bad self. We would have nothing to do if we did not have delicious speculation!
  19. Ah thanks. The Others have their own language: The Other said something in a language that Will did not know; his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking. AGOT Prologue You cannot reason with or exchange insults with someone you can't understand. However, there does appear to be inflection with intent in whatever the Other said. I've read a ton of ideas about the COTF being the ultimate baddies in the story, but I think they are probably somewhere between good and bad. Maybe they did create the Others or maybe they have simply existed with them and understand them. Either way, the COTF are in much better shape than humans. Who knows? Maybe the Others' reappearance has nothing do do with humans at all. Maybe there are so few COTF left they are unable to fulfill an agreement like The Pact only with The Others. I can see where the COTF struck a bargain with The Others on behalf of humans, who would be no more than meat with metals they hate. Maybe beating hearts stink? Someone somewhere in all the madness of Westeros done dropped a ball. Then again, you could be absolutely correct about the COTF being the real bad guys. I resigned myself to no happy endings in this tale.
  20. Wow LynnS, great input as usual. Thank you so much! I need to know if your opening paragraph indicates that The Others are just a band of Wildlings? That's a first if so. If I have misunderstood, please elaborate! We know the NW made sacrifices to -------? under NK's er, dominion, but to be honest I have a really hard time with NQ being OK with her babies being disposed of. Perhaps it was not babies sacrificed. If not, have you any guess as to what the sacrifices may have been? See, I think having those 3rd sons go off to the NW is a strange thing and ancient practice, but it seems there are shields from many many houses in the Shield Hall. Always considered this as First Men's sacrifices for the defense of the land. I believe Benjen was always intended to join the Watch, just as Waymar went after him. Defense requires sacrifice. We bandy about ideas for the emergence of The Others. I think it is far less to do with births of prophecy than negligence of The Pact with the COTF. If over thousands of years First Men's families have forgotten their promise or promises while remaining protected...The COTF seem to be keeping pretty much to their areas. I confuse the books and show so I will leave you to the text as to the fates of those unfortunate Craster survivors. I remember a fire and a small group of them going away not wishing to stay at the keep. It's good to see you.
  21. May be a case of chicken or egg here. Necromancy is raising the dead, not skin changing though I don't discount skin changing animates the dead. Nonetheless, my understanding of the histories indicates that The Others were doing their thing long before House Stark was even established. The kings of winter had many er talents including skin changing but certainly not limited to skin changing. Perhaps the Others have lost one of the other magical talents? Bran is right there in the thick of things surrounded by COTF and seemingly protected from the Others in his place. Perhaps dead is all The Others can affect with whatever their power is and they want to conquer the living employing all the talents the Starks possess--greensight, necromancy, skin changing, clairvoyance and whatever magic the Red Kings possessed.
  22. But how is the real question here. Early in the thread it was discussed how really unlikely any real communication is with The Others. Still there is some ancient knowledge that may have been preserved in the tales of a single father husband with a captive audience. We know all the people of Westeros relish their histories and legends. We loathe Craster for many reasons, it's very easy to overlook any honest or true quality he may have had. Perhaps this portion of what I imagine could be some part of the Pact and the preservation of the ritual sacrifice is the only true we get from this character. I read the term soul memory used in conjunction with instinct. Perhaps conditions as vital as those possibly outlined in the pact of the Children and 1st Men may have some fundamental role to play in the making of this culture. Why not? I think the 3rd son to the Watch may be a thing like this and wonder if there is not more to the legend of Brave Danny Flynt. Sorry, didn't mean to digress here.
  23. Ok, I'll bite. What do The Others actually want or need skin changer blood for? The Starks' blood contains far more magic than skin changing. They are wildly psychic. Seems to me whatever the possession of dead bodies is called it is much like skin changing so far as I can see the skill suits what I have seen of The Others.
  24. That's actually interesting. Why would you think Targaryen blood would be valuable to The Others? I don't see that often related. It is possible I see end game where The Others are concerned, but not so much where Dragons be. Fire as a driving life force where Ice is more a preservation of the same. Best I can immediately come up with is that much (human) needed frozen fire, but I can't see others wanting any of that around.
  25. Hopefully the White Book was kept up regularly and Hightower wrote down specific details of his last trip out of Kings Landing.
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