Curled Finger

I say give the whole bloody kingdom to Margaery. She's sure worked for it.

I can dig it. Oh No. I feel a sword topic coming on...

I swear I am so close to there with you. You know I plod! Everything I have done I have tried to color within the lines, that is the text at hand and we know the text is purposefully wrong. I refer to timeline here. Along this timeline, the Long Night happened long before the Valyrians, much less their steel. I can take Ironborn metals with obsidian. Why not, it says that's what the Ironborn did when everyone else was still using bronze? Nothing says any particular metals or mixed metals wouldn't be magical under COTF power, right? If we can leave Valyrian out of it I can go there. We know dragons were being ridden even then, before Valyrians. As I understand what you offer here, the green or COTF earth magic is a sort of neutralizer against either fire or ice?

This is tough. There are characters I love to hate and specifically read them like some teenager with porn because I get such a kick out of them. Cersei and Tywin do that for me. They make me cringe and I can't not like that. I do not care for Sandor Clegane's foul mouth and gruff ways, but I can't help but appreciate a guy who tries to help the otherwise helpless Stark girls. Soft spot, sorry. I hate those nasty C players like Rorge and Biter and all those creepy ass buggers Dany is forever crossing paths with along with the bigger boogey men like Gregor and Vargo. The POVs give me a look inside so it's really hard to hate them. Even Victarion when you see what a dumbass he is. I think the Green Grace is nasty and Dany just gets the hell out of Mereen post haste. I can't read much more of those backward assholes.

Almost my exact thought in my initial post. Yours makes me wonder what exactly Brienne and Oathkeeper are as touched upon a little later. OK makes Brienne a better fighter, just as Jon credits LC for making him a better fighter. In my very narrow tunnel Jon and Brienne are the hilts for the magic of those swords just as I anticipate Jorah and Jamie to be for the swords I expect them to wield. I am tripping over the classifications or delineations between the magic of ice and the Children as our goodsisters, @sweetsunray and @kissdbyfire have kindly explained. If I can really get them separated in my head canon the VS swords are real fire magic and dang it, they should be, we have certainly read it enough. What's with my refusal to accept this wholly? Dragonsteel. Specifically COTF supplied dragonsteel. That would be the same as dragonglass (classification), not ice magic and my brain hurts. Hrm...earth magic didn't do the trick the first time around?

@sweetsunray, heady stuff there! And new to me about the COTF and 1st Men not sacrificing to the weirwoods, so just questions, because that's what i do. You have laid out 2 beautiful explanations above and I am only familiar with the 2nd as it reminds me of the old days here where we had so much fun breaking down the constituents of steel and bone. Thanks for that. To your first statements, though, I am a little confused about sacrificing to the weirwoods. Are you saying the sacrificing only took place to affect some great act of magic? In my reading of the tale I have found that sacrifice is the price of magic. I admit I have not had a good reread in a year or so, shame on me. This topic has me pondering magic as the sword without a hilt specifically in the wild north of Westeros. I reckon the Pact is broken, offerings are not made, monsters are hungry and f*ck this, man will pay because of their lack of reverence and memory. The lack of balance is sort of where my hat hangs. Ice magic comes hither to demand its due. Perhaps justice. Is it possible the weirwoods would be satisfied with whatever death fell at their bases happenstance? The longer I try to reword what I think you said the clearer it is I did not understand. Straighten a sister out again?

I was reading @Mourning Starpost above then yours and it got me thinking about just humans. We know the Starks and Targs are magical. Then I got to thinking about Lannisters and Tullys and others. Like Brienne, maybe Jamie and Jorah. (I beg your pardon beforehand, my whole big interest in this thing is the swords!) They seem like very human normal non magical people. But Brienne tells us flat out that Oathkeeper makes her a better fighter. Jon, magic prince of the realm, says the same thing despite having magical experiences. I don't think Brienne is magical in any way, nor Jamie nor Jorah, but I think coming in contact with these magical swords will bring magic to their groove, their fight, their dances if you will. It took sacrifice to make these blades. My friend @hiemal has some wicked ideas that the blades themselves may actually eat the souls of their wielders. It's safe to say the COTF sacrificed to the weirwood as we know the 1st Men did later. I think the sacrifices were more than ceremonial or simply for a big thing. I'm thinking this was an everyday thing because of how brutal the tales from history are. Bran only gets a very few visions in the cave and 1 depicts what sure looks like a sacrifice. Sure it could be Stark centric but it tells me that sacrifice is important to the trees, to the relationship between men and these trees at any rate. Thinking back on Mourning Star's post, maybe sacrifice is exactly what's missing in the magic.

It is telling here that purely human characters seem to have no sway or real ways with magic. Interesting indeed!

Fair enough thanks for straightening me out

All that kid has been through. Sure makes me glad George RR Martin isn't really God!

Ah thanks and that is closer. This one has to go back a good 5 or 6 years. He specifically said magic caused the seasons to go wonky. Not go wonky, but you know. I have seen your quote come up a few times. Drats, I wish I could remember where i saw it. I am only willing to go so far as magic will have to defeat magic in end and that humans will have to pull it all together and carry on. Will magic disappear? I don't know. If Bran is a greenseer and destined for endings I don't yet understand then I am a fool and simply don't understand. The fool in me jumps up and down and waives a finger at you screeching "But he's a greenseer! Greenseers are MAGIC!!!". Sigh. Does Dany have to die? She's not the only magical being in our triple threat to the crown. She can't warg. She can't skin change. She can't green dream or greensee. She isn't even much of a diplomat or statesperson or schemer. She is decidedly bound to fire only power, awesome as that may be. And she is the only one who seems to have fire power in any appreciable degree, Rest in Peace Ser Frog. Is sacrifice the whole point of our fierce fire queen's story? Is she our sword without the hilt?

We widely presume (well I presume at least) that the flooding of the Neck and the breaking of the land bridge from Essos to Dorne was magic as well as the events you list, though it's interesting you don't list them. I have to ask if you don't consider them magical events or forgot them or what? No big deal just curious is all.

Ah thanks LR, but no neither. I think he was on a tirade with the one I'm trying to remember. He said something like magic caused the seasons to go crazy and magic will fix them not some asteroid hitting...something like that at any rate. Great quotes, though! Love to hear you weigh in on the topic, this is some great thinking stuff here.

Ah bitchen, a juicy topic indeed, thanks @Phylum of Alexandria. Sorry, I'm not a great quote retriever, pardon my ineptitude here. Recalling something Martin said about magic being the cause and ultimate cure for the seasons being out of whack in Westeros. My little brain assumes further that magic is the ultimate cure for all that ails in this story just as it causes all the big wrong things here. I could be wrong. It would not be the first time. A sword without a hilt is a blade that does what? It cannot be grasped, but could be propelled by force and do great damage if sufficiently sharp and heavy enough. If a blade is sentient it wouldn't really require a hilt. Blades are a big deal throughout ASOAIF and all its side tales. If @Seams was here she could tell us all about people as blades and blow our minds with all references appropriately cited and quoted along with dancing and singing with blades. She's good that way. I bring this up to stress how Martin constantly draws our attention to the interchangeability of men and weapons. Men are blades, men are war hammers, men are weapons. Their joining is the dancing and singing, the celebration, of death and maiming and misery. What is a violent man without a moral compass? What is any man with infinite universal power? What is any pissed off guy on a stolen horse? So what then is the point of a sword having no hilt? Control? The need for the true ruler? Suppression of magic? Ethnic or environmental cleansing? Continental peace? Human sacrifice? More dragons? A gathering of swords literally and metaphorically? Killing the Maesters? Can I vote for burning Melisandre? I think not having a hilt nods to control and needing all things to be in balance. If you have magic and even the simple evil that lives in men's hearts, the 2 must be balanced. That takes control and that control may mean you cannot have a world wherein creatures such as dragons and Others may coexist with humans as a dominant population. The Children seem to get that. Can't wait to read all the rest of what's coming. Thanks for something good to read. It's been a long winter.

Best episode yet. My only problem and I admit it wouldn't be a problem if I hadn't watched Inside the Episode, was Alicent's eagerness to accept Viserys' dying statements as affirmation of her son as heir to the throne. I was perfectly fine with Alicent being a power grubbing paranoid jerk. Showrunners would have me believe it is her naivete and innocence that drives her? Nah, not this far down the line. This episode gets my highest rating yet, 9 of 10. I rather enjoy the manipulations Alicent pulls (when I believed she was manipulating) contrasted with Rhaenyra's seemingly sincere attempts at peace if not reconciliation. I believe the princess would do just about anything for her dad. She loves the old guy. Even dastardly Otto was caught up in the dinner moments. My favorite scene, as I imagine was everyone's, was Viserys sitting the throne today. I was particularly thrilled with the king calling Rhaenys to speak for House Velaryon, which I thought pure gold. Rhaenys is made relevant and I did whisper a small "yes!". The adult children are interesting and I look forward to their coming stories and intrigues. I hope Daemon and Aemond share more scenes. They are fun.

You know this is a great question. What will happen to the Brotherhood? I am of the mind there are many factions and we are only seeing one in the main story. We know Tom O' Sevens is still communicating with the main group, but where is everyone else? Can we really believe the lords have anything to do with this revenant of vengeance? And no, Thoros sure doesn't seem to like it even a little bit. Brienne is captive and seems to have made Jamie captive. The key word here is seems. Our lady has been in no choice situations before and survived. Jamie didn't hesitate or ask a single question once Brienne told her the Hound had the girl...after she touched her sword. Was this a tip off of some sort? Other posters sure thought so in a topic I had the pleasure of hosting long ago. Brienne became captive following a most brutal encounter wherein she took food to Gendry, a newly minted knight of the Brotherhood who has been exiled to an outpost to look over a bunch of kids. He makes weaponry and armor. I wonder how much glory a very young and very new knight finds in this while the main branch travels and exacts vindication? Brienne is about to tell Gendry something. We know what that something is but he doesn't. All he knows is she fought like a boss, like a knight by golly. Perhaps he was impressed? Perhaps he will remember her face being bitten off and yet she fought. Perhaps he will reevaluate his place as a knight in the scheme of things. Jamie dreams of he and Brienne holding twin swords alight with blue flames. In that I am not a great symbolism guy, I took this to mean the two would fight with the blades reformed from Ice. Does this preclude one or both of them from dying, well yah, I think it does. We require a paladin and a fighter with magic swords to fight the Others. Dead guys won't be there (not on Jamie & Brienne's side any way). They both survive whatever horrific trial Lady Stoneheart has in mind. Curiously, I think LSH has to survive after a fashion, too. She's got to do something if it isn't to kill Batman and Robin. My money is on a lot more Freys. Does this mean she maintains leadership of the BWB? Yah. She will. But I think it will be a more corporate leadership, things will shake up a bit. Thoros, our cleric, may find his balls after the trial and tell her she can't just kill people, the god or gods have made will known or whatever. There will be a council something. Arya will show up. Sandor Clegane will show up. I hope this all happens in the Neck and LSH can go get her revenge on Roose with Brienne's aid while Thoros and Jamie go tear the Twins down with all the Freys in it or something along those lines. Maybe Gendry rides with Arya to Winterfell and LSH realizes not all her children are dead and turns into a wisp of smoke or more likely poor Arya has to show her mercy. Jamie goes to grab a sword from Kings Landing. All I know is it will be very exciting and heartbreaking and get pieces into place for end game.

There was a lot for me to consider in this episode. I really enjoyed the debauchery of Rhanerya's education colored and told well within the lines of Mushroom's manic telling. Well done there. Watching the bits afterward with the interviews takes a bit of the world building and story telling--that wonderful open-ended could be this could be that Martin is the master of away from the story. Damon's impotence under extreme pressure was brilliant timing only to find it wasn't nobly er prompted. Nor was it part of his grand design. Just biology. Very disappointing to learn of this version of Daemon. Still it speaks to this guy's lack of control and that is very much my understanding of the dude. This is chaos. We didn't know this before. Anyone else get Maegor vibes off this small character trait knowing he will have many children? Are they really going to be his children here? Shake it off... Overall I really enjoy this story Ryan Condal is telling. I enjoy the luxury of the layers of character and dialogue and plot here that we did not have the benefit of previously. It's very cool. It is an expensive gift and it feels like it. Episode 4 earned a solid 8 from my humble home. I don't have a favorite episode. Each little story has transported me to a place I am learning again and maybe learning to trust again. I like each episode for different reasons, but I admit this is not a program I was sure I wanted to pay to see. Glad the curiosity won here as House of the Dragon has been very exciting and pleasurable for watching and discussing. I hate Viserys, but I also feel very sad and sorry for him. I hate myself for wanting to just give Allicent a hug. I didn't really buy into the tenderness of Rhaenrya/Criston love scene and tend to think it was more along the lines of love the one you're with than actual love. Of course, I never saw the crush here in dialogue or eyes, but it isn't like me to notice those things unless they are very obvious. Though the brothel and bedroom scenes were notably different from so many scenes of that nature they were tasteful while still delivering on the flesh this brand promises to deliver. So yah, I think Princess had a bad case of blue balls is all, sorry. Still this is a huge and much discussed mystery that of Kingsguard and Princess fallout and I look forward to this er resolution of the matter and the beginning of well, the dance. What problem or complaints I have are outweighed by the fun I have with this story telling and the heart this show has. It shines through. Can't decide if I want to dress as Rhaenys or Corlyss for Halloween. This is new and they will figure it out. The bit with all the stupid men has to go, though everyone is pretty stupid in this tale regardless gender. And we don't know where we are going. Maybe we will see some swords that haven't been seen since this time in history and see what happened to them. Maybe we'll see a real Kraken. Maybe we will have a good time if we want to.

I gave it a 7 because I thought it was quite good. I find myself feeling more sympathy for the main characters and actually anticipating scenes featuring certain characters or situations, like mention of the Stepstones. Twice in a row I have been rewarded with an eye feast of textures and color and rich scenery. There was a lot of talking, but it was good talking, nothing at all like the drivel that devolved with another show I once liked. Intelligent dialogue well performed and directed is a pleasure to spend an hour with. Politics are rearing their very ugly heads all over the place. It appears I will have more than Otto and the rest of the greens to loathe by the end of this tale. That little firecracker who portrayed Laena was delightful. I hope her older actor is half the dragon geek she is. Daemon drawing Dark Sister on the bridge was just wonderful. There were some great moments in this episode. Big points off were for the opening being such a disappointment on so many levels and things that are missing. I am unsure what is missing, but something is. It was still a good episode.

Oh for crying out loud, all I did was tab! Red Rain Blackfyre Heartsbane Lamentation Lady Forlorn Widows Wail Orphan Maker Truth Vigilance Oathkeeper Dark Sister Blackfyre Brightroar Dark Sister Lady Forlorn Ice Blackfyre Our lone sword with no match is of course, Longclaw. Hope that helps a little.

Hey @Seams, thanks for the call out. I will do my best to help with the pairings of named swords, et al. By my reckoning by name alone the following "match" or reference each other in some way... Dawn Lightbringer Nightfall Ice

You found it yourself. I don't know if it's true or not, but I really dug Joe's take on it.

One of the youtube guys I watch has some great ideas about who some of the characters in Essos are what GRRM intended for his 5 year gap. Brienne becomes Pretty Maris, Sandor Clegane is Corpsekiller and you will just have to listen yourself to see who the Tattered Prince is thought to be. Mercifully, we have Brienne as her young self as things turned out. She is a great character.

3/10. I hated Arya's story line last week and just knew there was no way the things that happened could have been what I saw. I racked my brain trying to figure out what clever twist they had in store. Epic failure on my part. Good to see the Hound back to his old self again and a tickling surprise to see Beric & Thoros. The siege of River Run wasn't really a siege at all. Wham Bam it's over Baby. Deeply unsatisfying. I'm ashamed of myself for watching really.

Little Finger sucks, true, but I would really really like to see him suffer--maybe get the treat of a POV in his head. It could be as much fun as Cersei. Yeah, dead is too easy an out for him. I hope GRRM gives LF his just rewards. Reminds me of the 1st read when I thought LF and Varys were adversaries. Maybe Varys will kick his butt after all. I've learned to adore Cersei--can't help but love her insanity and vanity..one of the cool girls in high school. The more I read LF the more I hate him. The more the show sweetens him the more nauseous I get listening to my unsullied friends talk about how good he is. Yuck. He needs something painful and debasing and he never saw coming.