Curled Finger

I thought Dawn was too obvious for a long time. I get the feeling now that Dawn is something else. A key maybe, I don't know. It's been evident to me from my 1st read these swords are a big deal. It's wonderful to have some ideas about the actual making of VS and mention of an ancient Dragon Steel. These swords are so important for the battles coming. There are a lot of ideas about Ice and Longclaw and lost history of the North. I would not be surprised to find that Ice had a really important purpose that can't be completed because it is no longer Ice. Or not, swords do seem to drop in and out in Westeros. The Azor Ahai tale seems to be about sacrifice among many other things that definitely bring Jon Snow to mind if you are looking for some one to be Lightbringer. Personally, I think all the heroes will be lightbringers. Jon is the embodiment of hero, particularly in his harsh environs. Of course he is the sword, but so is Dany and maybe Bran, Jamie, Brienne... It appears you have 2 sets of Ice and Targ swords now. I wonder if it matters who wields them? Curious that Jon has (or had?) Longclaw. It is the match to Blackfyre and I have to think Widows Wail is a lot closer to Darksister than anything else. To be honest, I thought the writer of the article was being cute and talking about Jon in terms of Lightbringer, not actual swords. It's something to think about though. In the end I have to agree with you, it is what happens to and with them that makes these swords so special.

That was a good read. Thank you for the tip. I'm always up for a VS swords discussion. The article deep dives into Ice and an unknowable history of the swords and their role in ruining at least the Targaryen family. Maybe. Truth is we don't know what these things were made for. It is coincidental that they seem to be fashioned after dragon glass in a way? Or did the Valyrians have a specific intent in making them? There are so many swords and heroes in ASOIAF that I'm not sure there needs to be more to Lightbringer than Dawn. It's already there and isn't VS. Let's see what Dawn does before we just toss it out in favor of something or one else being Lightbringer. Is Ice the end all beat all VS sword? Maybe. Then again it was Ned's sword and that alone makes it special to readers. That Tywin had the nerve to appropriate and change Ice is appalling. Still, OK & WW are Ice...or are they? We see both swords glow blue in Jamie's dream. What if OK & WW don't work like the other VS swords do? We have parallels between Jon and Brienne with their swords. They both claim the swords make them better or do the fighting for them. Oh dear, what does one do with a sentient blade? Longclaw has given steady performance throughout the series. Did OK fail Brienne? I am hoping that in seeing Dawn in TWOW (Oh please let this finally happen!) we will see what makes this odd sword so special. This is the one that has been around forever. Perhaps when Darkstar takes the sword or finds Ned Dayne with it we will get some understanding of the role of Sword of the Morning. Seems to be a big deal. But what does a Sword of the Morning actually do? Bring light maybe?

And that crazy dream he has. Yikes. I could get behind some flaming Valyrian Steel. Wonder what blood would do to a blade like that?

Boiled down Lightbringer just brings light. From a societal view Jon has brought light to Free Folk and Nights Watch brothers. As Dany has with her efforts in Essos. A brilliant light to many people, both of them. I have some trouble with the whole Lightbringer, sword of the morning being the one who brings the light as opposed to the Dayne and Dawn folklore. Metaphorically all our heroes will be light bringers. The dragons are light bringers. The Citadel is a light bringer. Call me an idiot, but Dawn and a knight worthy of the title of the house Dayne will be Sword of the Morning paired with Dawn. Or Sword of the Evening? What sword would he use? Dawn is the end of night. It is an interesting mystery. Until there is more on the sword or title that's the best I've got. Between Azor Ahai, TPTWP and The Last Hero I am full of end game heroes. We may find out the truth about the legendary sword and its purpose among magical items in world. There isn't a lot of hope held for learning any great Dayne truths (perhaps words?!) in Darkstar Gerold. Not getting big heroic vibes off this one, but maybe there will be something in the way he takes Dawn. We gotta get something seeing Starfall. Sorry if that didn't hype up Jon. Jon is great. He is a hero among heroes. He is a light bringer, we only differ in the potentialities we envision. But it sure gave me some hype to learn about Dawn and House Dayne. Finally.

You have a gift for downplaying the horror, but it was horrifying even if WHO says it's gone. I didn't know the rules to the prediction game. I give you a genuine Vale bastard with kingsblood, Mya Stone. Put Sansa back this moment. Well, as it happened I remembered this and it did happen in another telling. When I checked I saw I was having a false memory implanted by Bloodraven or the maesters. Someone. All we know is she wasn't born with it, but contracted it as an infant. Sorry. I don't want to read Jon Connington dying of this awful disease. It is too gross? People turning to stone at the apex of their redemption/vengeance arc? What if all these horrible diseases recombine into something? Then the weird regional magic. Did you just figure out the Others origin story? The Merenese illnesses seem to run their ravage in a very short time with a high mortality rate. Put that on Vic's smoking arm and see what happens. This scenario makes me wonder how many of these poor bastards are actually going to make it to Westeros. Then she comes with rats and a 1 in 10 survivor rate among her forces? Dark.

Laugh all you like, I based my assumption on the golden Lannister hair having no known deviation, pointing only to Tyrion not being wholly Lannister over Aerys is anything other than someone with diverse hair colors in his family. Only known suspect, as it were. Yes, we readers understand this Rhaegar Lyanna thing is different, but most of Westeros tells the abduction and rape story. Just an in world curiosity that there might be a pattern. Or could be. Don't get caught in my web of mismemory. The bit with the public comment happened after Lannisport. This was in Kings Landing when she took the twins to present to the king. It is odd that Tywin wouldn't find out about an attack on his lady wife. How could that happen? Tywin tried to quit after all that but Aerys would not accept his resignation. So why did he remain in Kings Landing after he heard this insult himself? Is this where Aerys turned punitive on his Hand? Is this where the awful idea of recruiting Tywin's heir as his personal Kings Guard began? Did that happen after he denied his son's betrothal to Cersei? Tywin served Aerys ably from what we read. He messed with Tywin pretty handily, as I suppose only a more powerful man could. Just one of those many weird set ups Martin writes so well with so little information.

I watch notablog fairly regularly. My version of society papers I guess. Martin was frightened and that was clear in his posts about being in a remote cabin for a year. I am looking forward to reading the whole grey scale misery as he is so well spoken and his portrayal of this thing should mirror his own feelings and stances on things. What happens here should be really telling about the author himself. What an interesting and unique opportunity a previously planned epidemic has being told during a real one. In dark Westeros. Hell yah.

For all it's worth Jon's eyes are so grey they are nearly black. That's odd. How do you get eyes that dark a grey? Euron has mismatched eyes, blue and black, I think. Is it really black or a color so dark it looks black? Could it be purple? (Jon's eyes was the first time I was exposed to the black being purple idea.) Lots of Targs had black hair. They weren't all Valyrian in appearance. Rhaenys, the Queen Who Never Was, had black hair as her mother was half Baratheon. She was 3/4 Targ and that black came right through. Brother, there is no proof of anything, just speculation. Take it or leave it. In the end, we of limited imagination have not come up with anything other than dragon riding being a Targ might be good for. There are dark haired Targs with eyes from blue to violet. The Targs have been intermarrying for 300 years. That last tiny bit for Tyrion being a Targ is how his birth mirrors Jon and Dany's. All the moms died in childbirth. Lyanna is said to have been raped by Rhaegar and Rhaella was brutalized by Aerys. One could stand firm on the Aerys Joanna thing and feel another similarity was reached in Tyrion...

Strange it being behind us as Covid was the mainstay of our hours not so long ago. I have wondered, too, what Martin would write as a result of this thing happening. He sure seemed to take everything seriously. Somehow, I don't think a grey scale pandemic will be skirted in TWOW. I think it will reflect our own fears and ideas in the telling. I don't imagine it will get any easier for Shireen and this is where that burning will likely come in. Disposable humans as a means of fighting a plague. Just kill them all? There is a story in the histories that tells of an Hightower lord (I think) who locked down Old Town during some Spring Sickness or awful illness that was making the rounds. No one entered and no one left until it was safe. Could we get a glimpse of Cersei or even Aegon pull a lock down like this? What characters might we expect to contract the disease? I see this getting really really bad, maybe not across Westeros, but at least in the South. Poor Shireen may well be immune now and completely safe, but that won't save her because people will be frightened. Some of the Wildlings are already frightened of her. What if she isn't immune or safe? Then there is patient zero himself. How long can he keep this condition hidden? How long can he expect to think clearly? Will he be burned once his secret is discovered? Gotta wonder how many of the Golden Company are carriers. Shireen got grey scale from a doll. Is this thing airborne? Will it mutate in Westeros? I am expecting lock downs and hysteria. Thinking there may be more people simply executed for being near places than actually contract the grey scale. Can't help wondering what Euron will do with this, considering his weirdness. Gosh this sure got depressing.

Always a fascinating and unexpected take. Life Kiss is something to think about, thanks!

People have been predicting Sansa would go north long before the story was told on television. This is a natural progression for the character. Sansa is interesting that way. She fits in here and there. When I first came to the forum it was widely assumed she would return to Kings Landing. There are plenty of people who believe she will meet Aegon. There are a lot of readers who like Sansa gathering up all this land (The Eyre, Harrenhal, Casterly Rock, Winterfell). Somehow this makes her more powerful than anyone else. Problem is, Littlefinger is not her father and cannot bequeath anything to Sansa Stark as inheritances go. Yes, folks like to go on about her marriage entitling this and her lineage entitling that, but is that where her story is going? The truth is Sansa has nothing. Her marriage to Tyrion has not been consummated and she cannot legally marry anyone else. She has been disinherited at Winterfell, if Robb's will becomes known and honored. Sweetrobin is Lord of the Vale. His dying would only make Harry Lord of the Vale. Sansa as Lady of the Vale means what if LF is still hanging around? What purpose would it serve to have Sansa meet up with Lady Stoneheart other than to fulfill a promise for Jamie and Brienne? How does it serve Sansa? Further traumatize her for life? I guess it could serve to wake her to magic? Then what? Sansa has no real business in the Riverlands at all. The Mad Mouse is an interesting idea. Should this little rat actually get away with her it could go a number of ways. He already told Brienne there is a bounty on Sansa's head in Kings Landing. Maybe he would head for payment, maybe he would take her elsewhere. We simply don't know. There are plenty of folks who believe Shadrach is someone else, but that tends to lead her back to Winterfell. Certainly an abduction could be thwarted by just about anyone. Brienne seems singularly focused on finding Sansa, not Arya. Martin hasn't done anything good for Brienne, ever. I have a hard time believing he will allow Brienne and/or Jamie to actually find her. But I can see him dropping Arya in their vicinity with her finding them, LSH and all. I can at least see a reason for LSH to meet up with Arya and vice versa that isn't present for Sansa.

Littlefinger left Sansa when he went to arrange or attend a wedding. That's when he comes back and tells her about his plans and she meets his henchmen. He would leave Sansa alone. He appears to be buying into her Alayne act or he simply underestimates her. The Riverlands has never quit being a problem. Lannisters and Freys are intermarrying all over the place, Bonifer Hastings and his Holy Hundred have taken up residence at Harrenhal and there seems to be a serial killer on the loose hanging Freys. LF hasn't said or done a thing about any of it. Seems to me he would at least be concerned with events at Riverrun, but even that doesn't come up. The Vale has Littlefinger's attention, not the Riverlands. Harrenhal was simply his path to marrying Lysa for control of the Vale. It was always his intention to marry Lysa once he's given a lordship. He has never, not once, expressed an interest in his position in the Riverlands after he was given Harrenhal. He has a plan that focuses on people in the Vale. If there is a plan for the Riverlands we haven't seen it from Littlefinger.

Aerys definitely not being the twins' father was the big take away 1st time I read it. As for Tywin and Joanna being close...maybe. You are pretty determined that Tyrion is not Targaryan. That's fine. As I look at the whole thing it is tenuous and written to defend Joanna. It is as easy to jump to the conclusion that Aerys fathered Tyrion as not. Aerys had opportunity. This timeline is a little like the possession of Brightroar, got it sometime in the century before the Doom and lost it sometime in the century afterward. The anniversary tourney could have been in January and could have been in December or any time in between. We don't know when Tyrion was actually born.

Turns out it was not a tournament, but a funeral that brought Aerys to Casterly Rock and Lannisport for half a year. Before anyone was married or king it was rumored that Joanna lost her maidenhead and had an affair with Prince Aerys. 262 Tywin & Joanna wed. Aerys takes liberties during the bedding. Shortly afterward Rhaella dismisses Joanna from court and she returns to Casterly Rock. Joanna seldom visits Kings Landing thereafter. 266 Twins born 267 Tytos dies. Aerys takes Rhaegar and heads west with Tywin and stayed for about 6 months between Casterly Rock and Lannisport. 272 the great 10th anniversary Tournament is held in KL. Joanna brings twins. Aerys makes rude comments about Joanna's breasts. Tywin Quits. Aerys refuses. 273 Tyrion is born. So I was mixed up on dates and places. Looks like this thing may have happened in Kings Landing if it was going to lead to Tyrion. 4 years between Joanna's dismissal from court and the birth of the twins leads me to believe she was in the Westerlands the entire time until presenting her children the year before Tyrion was born. Basing this on Aerys' rude comment. This lends itself to Aerys certainly wondering what she looks like now. He specifically says something about ruining her breasts which indicates he has seen her breasts. Aerys was certainly crude enough to make a pass. We know from Jamie's POV that Aerys was violent with Rhaella. Smells suspect to me.

You seem to be looking for reasons not to appreciate this mystery. My implication was not that he received a pardon but that there was some punishment for possibly taking the Targaryen side in the Rebellion. There is no inclination that Lonmouth or Connington were leal Robert supporters as Lord of Storms End. It's clear they both had relationships with Rhaegar, not Robert. How could they? Robert only takes up his helm as the Lord of the Stormlands once he decides to wage war against the crown. The crown they knew and trusted, not this bozo with a hammer and bad attitude. We don't know what happened to Richard Lonmouth, squire and companion to the crown prince of Westeros. There is a reason we are being led to believe Lem Lemoncloak is this person or at the very least in some way connected to this person. There are too many references. This character has 2 stories going, a possible id and backstory as well as this new thing with the Hound's helm and the notoriety of the crimes committed while wearing the stupid thing. Gads for all we know he could be the one to actually spit the words out to Gendry that he looks like Robert. As he dies with the helm on and a tattoo of the house arms on his chest over the Mom one.

I want Jamie to pay for hurting Bran, too. Bad show. I read this Bran character and think he will repay the Liddles for their kindness, comparing Lyanna and Leaf to Arya, acorn paste tasting like his mother's kiss and wonder if he's got any spite in him. Sure he threw a few fits, told a lie or 2, but Bran really is just a little boy. I don't see that vengeance in him. In a way Jamie losing his sword hand is sort of score evened. They both lost what made them extraordinary, the abilities to scramble and fight. If Bran remembers Jamie would he be angry?

That is an interesting implication. Sort of minor Red Viper after Gregor sort of thing--vengeance for the smaller guy. Nice...

Heck yes it will. The Riverlands are great, so much going on in so many directions. I agree with nearly all of it as a reader with no bias, I think. Most of what you've described is possible, maybe predictable given the information we have. Still, there are nuances--fun rabbit holes to go through with so many scenarios in The Riverlands. I imagine what awaits us will be a lot more horror than world building. I get the feeling some of this will happen and there will be unanticipated consequences. I have wondered if frickin Littlefinger would ever have his attention turned to events in The Riverlands, his official seat. What does he think is happening at Harrenhal? Haven't read a lot on that so it was fun to churn up. I don't expect George RR Martin to become predictable so while these things look right and fit some, there are things we haven't yet seen coming. It would be fun to go back and see what people were writing before ADWD finally published. What happened that no one guessed? Misunderstood? Got totally right, nearly perfectly right? Just makes it fun to try to figure all the connections out. Littlefinger? Maybe. The Vale story line would have to suddenly resolve. He's hosting the political event of the generation. This Winged Knights appointment is a big deal. Sansa appears to be courting disaster. Mostly there is a tournament. Tournaments tend to leave a lot of clues and information about. He cannot get to the Riverlands in time to affect anything. I can see this coming later in the story, but not within the next week or so as story days go. It would be cool to cite the quote as I would like to read the whole thing in context. Don't think I have seen that one before. Let's pull it all apart.

Robert famously pardoned members of Team Aerys once he was firmly ensconced as King. Selmy and Jamie, of course, come immediately to mind. Lonmouth is/was a house in the Storm Lands and we know from Jon Connington's POV that King Robert came down pretty hard on Griffin's Roost. Maybe the the "traitors" to Robert's cause were more harshly punished. The Wiki lists House Lonmouth as an existing house though Richard is the only person even close to present in the current story. Then again, we know Robert likes men he can drink with and Lonmouth was said to have drunk with Robert at Harrenhal. Erring on the side of caution, leaning in more toward some reprimand or punishment or even lack of forgiveness from the new management. Isn't it curious that no less than 2 of Rhaegar's inner circle were Robert's bannermen? If Rhaegar was a politician at all it was to influence the young and absent Lord of Storm's End upon his return to his seat from the Vale. Connington was originally penalized by Aerys for his failure as Hand, but it sounds like Jon is as stubbornly angry with Robert as anyone else. Everything is Robert's fault? Then there is that odd heraldry of skulls and kisses. It's wrong, somehow. When I pull the symbolism apart it looks like death kiss to me. But why?

If this really is Lonmouth, there really could be some interesting information forthcoming from this character. Could be he was with Rhaegar throughout Robert's Rebellion and before. He may know more about the Lyanna situation than any living person. He may know the actual identities of more than one person. Thinking maybe Jyanna Reed, Knight of the Laughing Tree and Elder Brother? He would have an insider's view on what happened at the Tourney at Harrenhal. Lonmouth is specifically mentioned in Meera's retelling of the events at Harrenhal. Could mean something that Howland Reed noted him and passed the info down to his kids.

There are more theories I don't like because I don't understand how the conclusion is made. This comes in most often with parentage ideas and Bran/Bloodraven/Arya eventualities. Personally, I am good with the story as it reads: Dany is the child of Aerys and Rhaella just as Jon is the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Aegon is a fake planted by Varys. The theories that answered most of my questions, so I'm not sure if these are convenient or really resonate, are that Ashara Dayne married Howland Reed, becoming Jyanna Reed. The fate of not only Westeros but each other relies on Dany, Jon and Tyrion working together. My favorite ideas lie in those ancient pacts, the forming of the NW, the coming of the Others and the point of magical weapons. This sword of the morning and last greenseer stuff is fascinating.

Nothing wrong with your feeling here. Just want to toss in we are discussing Aerys II, the Mad King. Who will tell this man he can't go anywhere? Considering we've never actually seen how things are run there, maybe safest to just leave it a blank. Like I say, I don't care if Tyrion is or not. It is the first idea I came upon in reading, that Tyrion may not be Tywin's child. Can't see where it matters other than the folks who like to go on about how badly written it would be...Whatever Tyrion is he's a really interesting character, Lannister, Targaryan or Hill.

Not true, Man, you can't know how anyone will react to an attack. Some talk about it, some just answer questions and some don't say a thing across the board all walks of life. AWOIAF allows a small window of opportunity for Aerys and Joanna to have been together--a tourney at Casterly Rock? When I have put myself in Joanna's place had this terrible thing happened I think I would have said nothing knowing my Lord husband would or should or could rebel against the crown. Tywin wouldn't take that laying down. A bedding is one thing, we are talking about something else. What I do find interesting is that AWOIAF specifically closes the door on the Jamie/Cersei possible Targ idea yet does allow for Tyrion. As I said earlier, I am not invested in this as I don't think it matters for anything other than dragon riding maybe? No one has given me anything else being a Targaryen dwarf is good for. For what it's worth I think Cersei would have made a great Targaryen.