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Sly Wren

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About Sly Wren

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  1. 1. 2. Agreed that he's of House Dayne--just really think there's a strong case that he's Lyanna's son. Even though it would probably be much more emotionally satisfying (for me at least) if Jon was Ned's. 3. Thus, for now, I'm thinking he's Arthur and Lyanna's. And Dany is Ashara's via Rhaegar. 4. But one way or another, both Arthur and Ashara's role in all of this, and House Dayne's role in general, has a lot more to be told.
  2. OOOOOHHHH!!!! I'm loving that catch/interpretation. Especially the point about Mel. And it's great irony since they are "dragons"--as if their blindness is also tied to their need for conquering/domination. And we see with Varamyr the horror of using skin changing abilities for domination. Nice! And Ghost-Jon thinks that Weirwood-Bran smells like death--thus, the Stranger. Hiding in a realm of death or second life gives wargs power the Targs might fear. Fits with @Voice's Warg-blocking thread. Now I really want to read Daenys the Dreamer's journal--might also explain what Aegon was so set on conquering--fear. I like it. Perfect. Am wondering if it's possibly tied to the "song of the earth"--only if you can sing it can you understand it. Wargs can see each other. But the Targs aren't exactly skinchangers--their bond seems to be something else. Thus, they can only see so much??? Agreed--though it does work really well as Bloodraven. Either way, your point is spot on. Fabulous.
  3. Sly Wren

    Rhaegar, Elia and Lyanna

    Amen. Though best not to go into much detail in the book forum--we might end up flayed. Or--no second-wifing at all--just a paramour. Stannis has Melisandre--a confidant of his wife. Selyse is even more of a true believer in Mel's abilities than Stannis is, in some ways. Not at all sure that would fit with Lyanna's being the mother of Rhaegar's third head. I'm partial to that's being Ashara Dayne, myself. Though that's for another thread. But so far in the books, we've got enough parallels to think Elia knew and was part of the cult.
  4. Sly Wren

    Rhaegar, Elia and Lyanna

    True. Just makes me think that Rickard did not have an in with Rhaegar. Tywin? Absolutely. Maybe even Jon Arryn, If @Black Crow and @Voice's speculations are correct. But Rickard. . . seems like he and Brandon got mired in the plotters' machinations. Not that they were the plotters per se. Could be--though the example of the Freys--Freys are Tully bannermen. So, that would make sense. And I agree with the "politeness" invite in our world--just can't think of something comparable in Martinlandia. Fair enough--just not sure there are enough players. One other potential issue: Harrenhal was everyone. Makes it a bit less obvious if Rhaegar is meeting with people to plot. Riverrun--a specific high lord with fewer players. Unless crown princes regularly attended such weddings, might draw attention to Rhaegar's plotting. And since Aerys is already onto Rhaegar (as shown by the fact that Aerys went to Harrenhal), seems like Rhaegar might want to lay low for a bit. Interesting--I think the Hightowers have potentially a big role to play. And the fact that Maester Walys was part of Rickard's ambitions. . . yes--very interesting speculation! Yup! As are my arguments. Which is what makes it fun.
  5. @PrettyPig--I'm still making my way through the thread, but I had to barge in rudely to say--this is amazing!!! And it fits really, really well with potentials for sacrifice and power and prayer at the Wall. Will come back to say something more pertinent later--but congrats. This is awesome.
  6. Sly Wren

    The Heresy Project: Tywin + Lyanna = Dead Girl

    Amen and Hallelujah! The knights' sigils and their tie to Tywin and the Lannisters are definitely a clue. I've been wondering for a while if the entire identity of the Knight of the Laughing Tree is a misdirect for readers: who the knight actually was is far, far less important than who people in the novels thought the Knight was. And less important than what people did with their speculations. Yes! The attack of the Kingswood Brotherhood and the references in the novels to the KBrotherhood--they are there for a reason. Amen--this WAS the plan, regardless of who won. No other way to explain Tywin's behavior. He had HUGE motive to join the war against Aerys--at least on paper. But he wasn't just trying to oust Aerys--he was trying to regain power. And gain even more power. That was his game. He was the Bael-ish of his day. With a lot more money. Amen--makes me think the original plan might have been to kill Lyanna outright. Leave her body to be found. Might even be the message that Brandon got--if he was told she was dead, that would explain why he doesn't ask for his sister.
  7. Sly Wren

    Rhaegar, Elia and Lyanna

    Yes--but Jaime makes it very clear that Aerys went along with it because he wanted to thwart and humiliate Tywin.
  8. Sly Wren

    R+L=J v.165

    1. Very sorry for the delay--the site kept throwing me off. Trying not to be paranoid. 2. Yup! And I agree it fits nicely with a lot of RLJ theory. 3. And I'd also say it seems very, very likely Lyanna loved the roses and their scent long before the tourney. Arya loves finding new and unusual flowers. If winter roses only bloom in winter, that would be a rare and interesting flower to someone like Arya. And Lyanna seems to be like Arya (or vice versa). So, no matter what happened with that rose crown, seems like Lyanna would still love the flowers--if we go with the Arya parallel. Nice!--I hadn't thought of its being that specific to the fever, but that works. I'd just been thinking of Ned's image of the thorns under the flowers. Or Lyanna's image in his dream--bleeding eyes. That the roses she loved got used against her somehow. I'm liking this. Fits with the idea that the Wall, the Watch, and even what Ned says about the fall of the Kingsguard--the idea that these safeguards have grown stagnant. Needs to be a chink to break free. That might fit with Rhaegar's need/desire to depose his father. But also could fit with the magical state of Westeros--the general break of seasons. And Alysanne's messing with the Wall. And the coming return of the Others--seems like all that stagnation helped set up for the misery in the current books. Though the blue flower/rose also seems like it's tied to Martin's Bitterblooms story--so the flower in the chink could be bringing something far less than perfect, since it's the color of the Others' eyes. I don't know if you've seen it, but @Frey family reunion found a cool parallel with the Wall and the "chink scene" in Midsummer Night's Dream. Fits well with the Bael Tale and potentially with RLJ. http://thelasthearth.com/post/64982/thread Amen--though the cost of Stannis and blood sacrifice might make his help. . . a lot less helpful. I think it works really well--but I'm a semi-grown woman who impersonates a bird on the internet, so my opinion may not be worth trusting.
  9. Oh--the 13 has to be there for a reason--the Last Hero story is clearly a key to ending the Long Night--as is the Night's King tale--the resurgence of the 13's has to be there to give us clues. Yes--I think it very likely they screwed helped set up the return of the Others by meddling with the Wall and the Nightfort. Don't know if you's seen this argument or not: but it might fit with some of your theories. The Targaryen relationship to Westeros and why they choose to conquer--could just be conquering and power. But there's also Davos's mention of the image of the Stranger in Aegon's Sept on Dragonstone: It's just one really, really brief mention. But nowhere else in the novels is the Stranger described as looking like an animal. And we have a fear of Wargs and skin changers in the novels--especially in the North. Makes me wonder if the Targs knew about the skin changing. About the potential power beyond the Wall. And feared it enough to have the Stranger look like an animal. Might explain their willingness to mess with the Wall--and with the Gate. 1. Any reason why you think she's a bastard child? 2. I do think the idea that Bael and his "visit" to Winterfell is that recent is very intriguing. Would possibly fit with the idea others have raised that the pregnant woman Bran sees rising from the Winterfell pool is actually the Bael Maid, calling for a son to avenge her. Very interesting--and I'm completely on board with Brandon the Builder actually turning into the Night's King. I think he shifted his "power" given from the children. He went from defending and protecting to conquering and ruling at the Nightfort. I've also started wondering if that's why the Wall . . . grew. If maybe it didn't so much get "built" as rise in relation to what Brandon did. Breaking the land for the purpose of conquering, not protecting. That could work--I do think there's an excellent chance (as the OP says) that the Gate was made by a sacrifice. And I think a sacrifice of a warg/skinchanger. Gary does kinda sound like a reverse Other in that description--reborn in spring, where the Others are "reborn" in Winter. As to when. . . oh boy. If I could pin all that down, I'd be a lot less restless waiting for the next books. Lots of options: if the Wall did grow as a result of Brandon's "conquering" behavior as the Night's King, could be they put the Gate in to be able to "control" the magic of the land. Only certain people get passage. And as the link I gave you above about Alysanne argues, there's a good case to be made that some of the warging power and direwolves of the Starks were still around--until she closed the Nightfort. So, seems like the Gate may have been the portal for all of that. A way to control it--an attempt to put a sword hilt on the magic of the land and warging. Might even explain the fight between the Nightfort and Snowgate--a few people have speculated that Snowgate may have been a place to sacrifice Snows (bastard children) through their own gate--claiming power for themselves.
  10. Sly Wren

    Rhaegar, Elia and Lyanna

    Agreed--though I'd argue Selyse and Dalla are much more likely to give us potential parallels for Elia. Especially since Mance has enough Rhaegar imagery around him to inspire "Mance is Rhaegar" theories. No, I do not think Mance is Rhaegar. But I do think the imagery around him is put there in large part for readers--so we can draw parallels and get hints about what Rhaegar did. Selyse is all in for Stannis' plans to take the kingdom and for his "cult"--she was on board with Mel before Stannis was. And Dalla, too, is all in for Mance. She, too, is all in for the ideas about magic and destiny and saving the free folk from the Others. She knows all the history and rules. She schools Jon on the whole "magic is a sword without a hilt" stuff. And then we are given Arianne Martell--Dornish princess eagerly involved in plots to change who sits the throne. No--I think there's a good chance all of that is in the novels for a reason: I think Elia was all in for Rhaegar's plans. And, like Selyse and Dalla and even Arianne, she'd want people involved in her "plot" that she could trust, not outsiders or new converts. So far in the novels, Stark Maids like Arya and Jon show little to no sympathy for these kinds of plots--let alone for cults. Jon's no true believer in Mance or Stannis. Same with Arya and the Brotherhood. And Arya chooses her Starkness over the House of Black and White by keeping Needle. Really seems like Martin is telling us that a Stark Maid like Lyanna would be unlikely to embrace Rhaegar's plots and cult.
  11. Sly Wren

    Rhaegar, Elia and Lyanna

    Oh--yes of course. I meant, if he was in cahoots with Rhaegar and knew all of this was a plot, why would he give in so easily to Aerys? Seems like he might have tried to maneuver out of the mess differently. Though that is obviously highly speculative. Maybe--but given the reaction to his crowning Lyanna--especially the Stark reaction to the crowning--this seems like an odd move on Rhaegar's part. Brandon was the one who was particularly incensed. Going to his wedding seems. . . odd. And do High Lords and Kings in these books generally attend weddings of people they aren't connected to? I'm realizing I don't know--but the wedding even of High Lords seems like it's much more of a local affair, just the parties involved and their direct retainers. A fair point--could be interesting. As I said, the Starks seem unlikely to be friendly at this point, though. Plus Aerys has snatched away Tywin's marriage plans by Kingsguarding Jaime. So, no reason for Tywin to go. Just really seems like Rhaegar might be unlikely to get a positive hearing even if he risked this. This one I struggle with--it is possible, but I can't find any hint of it. Ned does say he'll find Sansa a better husband when the "Baratheon" Joffrey ends up being horrible, but he doesn't then turn and try to arrange a marriage to an already married man. No--it's theoretically possible, I grant you. Just can't see any hints in the novels. Or are you thinking of a specific parallel that I'm missing?
  12. Sly Wren

    Rhaegar, Elia and Lyanna

    Aerys took her hostage--I'm guessing he may have "called" or ordered her to return. . . . but that's a guess. Good point--and I think Oberyn was plotting in other ways, too. And we have Arianne--plotting to put Myrcella on the throne--might be a parallel Martin is drawing for us to what happened in the past--the Martells might have been in on some of Rhaegar's plans. That works. I can buy it with Doran--and I agree Rhaegar hadn't given up. But why Rickard? If he was in on it, why would he go to Aerys? Agreed--it's one of the reasons I think Tywin or one of his lackeys sent a letter to Brandon accusing Rhaegar of various horrible acts towards Lyanna. Just like Baelish has Lysa send that letter to Cat--get everyone upset and discombobulated. Makes it easier to start a war and get rid of Aerys.
  13. Sly Wren

    Rhaegar, Elia and Lyanna

    Maybe--but that's a lot of time. Especially since he already had his prince that was promised. I'm assuming someone betrayed him. But it really seems like he only came back when Aerys threatened Elia and the kids That seems. . .. unlikely. He'd been plotting with Tywin at least since Duskendale. According to the wiki, that's two years before marrying Elia. And long after Rhaegar had started reading books/histories/prophecies and shaping his life after them. Then, even after his marriage, with baby #2 not long away, he's plotting again at Harrenhal. No--Rhaegar was plotting on multiple fronts. Like Mance and Stannis. He had been plotting for years. He believed he was the rightful king and that he would bring forth the Prince that Was Promised. And if he hadn't gotten squeezed by Aerys and ending up dying at the Trident, he might just have pulled off the coup--Tywin, too, had stayed out of the war. If Rhaegar hadn't died, seems like a decent bet Tywin would have backed Rhaegar instead and eventually married Cersei to Rheagar (which is what Tywin had intended for a while). Maybe--but Dany describes that scene as beautiful and sweet--it's short, but it seems like Elia wasn't at all surprised by what he said. Any more than Selyse is surprised by Stannis' ideas. Or Mance's wives seem surprised by him. So, in the world of the books, the wives of men plotting great, prophetic destinies--so far, in Martinlandia, such wives seem like they are usually on board. Oh--my apologies. I didn't mean to imply perfection. No--I was drawing the parallel because of the sense of destiny tied to prophecy. We see it in Stannis (who has Targaryen blood) and in Mance (with a fair amount of Rhaegar like imagery around him). In those instances--Martin shows us how this cult-like world of "destiny" affects those inside it. Maybe--but neither of them is involved with a man who is driven by prophecy and destiny. Seems like Stannis and Mance are closer parallels. Agreed. 1. I, too, would like facts--and the next book (grumble, grumble). 2. As you say, "complicated" could mean a lot of things. 3. My point is just that Martin has told us that Rhaegar is interested in prophecy and interested in being king--to the point of being willing to depose his father. Those elements--prophecy, destiny, kingship--those specifically show up in Stannis and Mance. So, from a literary standpoint, seems like we should pay attention to that parallel, as opposed to more general ones. Maybe.
  14. Sly Wren

    Rhaegar, Elia and Lyanna

    Might depend on Rhaegar's intent--after all, Rhaegar hid out from the entire war. Only joining in when Aerys took Elia hostage and threatened her. Given that, having the Dornish hold back in case Rhaegar needed men later might be helpful. I really, really think Rhaegar intended to use the war to depose his father--like he and Tywin did with the Defiance of Duskendale. He sat out the war for a reason--and he sat it out for a very long time. Agreed--but we see Selyse put up with a lot--because she's a true believer. Elia clearly knows about the prophecies. Rhaegar had told her about them. The idea that she was a true believer has to be on the table. Fair enough--but we do have that scene in the House of the Undying. Really, really seems like Elia knew. And Martin took time to set up a potential parallel in Stannis, Selyse, Davos, and Mel--and their focus on prophecy and destiny. Seems like looking at that dynamic might be worth it. As would I--can you think of an example from the text that is like that? So far, most of the women are pretty complicated. I'm not trying to be flippant--really, really--I just can't think of anyone in the books who's presented as that noble. Especially since we have the cult of Stannis and Selyse. One way or another, Rhaegar was willing to take risks--at Duskendale, at Harrenhal, sitting out the war, going into battle at the Trident. So, one way or another, he was willing to let people burn to bring about his ends. Given what we've seen of Arya's takes on love and family, on Jon, and even on Sansa--I think we may see this. Though Ned does seem to believe Lyanna's death was at least partly her fault.
  15. Sly Wren

    Rhaegar, Elia and Lyanna

    All very likely--though I'd also argue that Martin gave us a potential parallel for this situation in the combo of Stannis, Selyse, and Mel. We know Elia knew about Rhaegar's Cult of the Three-Headed Dragon--Dany clearly hears him talk about it and Elia makes no protest. So, Rhaegar and Stannis both believe they are called to greater things. Both have targaryen blood. Rhaegar really seems like he was all in for deposing his father and taking his role. And for fulfilling prophecy. Same with Stannis. And Selyse seems as much if not more of a true believer than Stannis. So, Elia might have been a true believer. But the Mel figure gives me pause--Stannis and Selyse trust their inner circle: themselves, Davos (Stannis' most loyal knight) and Mel--the magical woman Selyse knew and trusted before Stannis did. Rhaegar's got Elia and Arthur Dayne--but Lyanna? She's NOT part of that inner circle the way Mel or anyone else is. No indication she knew Elia beforehand. And Martin's given us examples of Starks tied to Lyanna and how they react to this kind of "destiny" cult-- Jon's reaction to Mance? Kinda likes him. Falls for his follower (Ygritte), but returns to his brothers. Not a true believer by any means. Jon's reaction to Stannis and Mel? Lots of horror and frustration--Jon, Lyanna's very likely son, is clearly not a cultist. Arya's reaction to Beric (with his Dayne-like imagery) and Thoros (tied to Mel's Red God)? She goes along with it--but she's a hostage. And gets away when she sees them as not serving her needs. Arya runs to a cult--the House of Black and White--but she's no true believer, not with Needle safely hidden away. No--Elia I can buy as a true believer--Martin's shown us how that can work. But Lyanna the Stark Maid being all in for any of this? Martin's given us a lot of reason to doubt that.