Sly Wren

Right--but isn't that the point of the OP's question? There's nothing really for Ned to hide if it isn't Ashara. No point in naming anyone. But Ned never tells anyone (other than Robert) that it wasn't Ashara--Cat says he got really angry, told her never "to ask about Jon," demanded where she'd heard the name, and made the whole of Winterfell shut up. He doesn't deny it's Ashara, let alone mention Wylla. And Cat is left thinking that Ned must have loved Jon's mother "fiercely." The opposite of the effect you note would be best. When Cersei mentions Ashara, Ned just says nothing. One assumes Cersei thus continues to think she's right, not that Ned didn't care for Ashara. And Harwin suggests to Arya that Ned loved Ashara. That's the story that seems to have gotten out--the opposite of what you suggest. So . . . given that Ned won't talk about it, and that he won't argue with people who think it's Ashara. . . what is the point of naming Wylla? Especially once we find out that she's a real person living with a noble house who thinks she's Jon's mother? What's the point of this? It's odd.

1. My apologies--I read too quickly. 2. On the bolded--yes. Starfall actively embraces this story for some reason. It's weird. Ned Dayne, the Lord of Starfall, seems to think it's a cool factoid that he shared a wet-nurse with the Bastard of Winterfell. GRRM is drawing a circle around this story for some reason. And Wylla is not refuting the story to the Lord of Starfall--for some reason, she's going along with it. If the point is just to hide Jon's parentage and keep Jon safe at Winterfell (or the Wall), there is no need for Ned to go along with the Daynes' story that a living woman at Starfall is Jon's mother. Not when Ned is so clearly willing to say nothing. It's weird. I really think GRRM setting us up to eventually learn that Starfall is hiding something much bigger.

My best guess is that the Daynes have a secret as dangerous (or close to it) as Jon's parentage. Probably something to do with Ashara's mystery child that seems to change gender based on story. That could explain why Ned is so vehement about keeping her name out of any discussions about secrets. I'm also one who thinks it likely that Lyanna ended up living at Starfall for a bit, probably under an alias and disguise (like Arya and Sansa do)--which could be really dangerous for the Daynes if Robert found out it. And, give that the Daynes have clearly taught Edric/Ned to think highly of Ned Stark, the guy who killed their literal chosen son--I really think it's likely Ned is keeping not just a secret about Jon, but a secret that protects the Daynes. Maybe the same secret. Maybe different ones. But something is up with the Daynes. Thus, the "Wylla" story is a marker that something else is up. And I think that Wylla Manderly is also a marker that something else is up. ETA: I have a whole theory with questionable scenarios on this, so I'm trying not to derail your thread. But if you have interest in rabbit holes: https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/153587-why-“wylla”-meet-lyanna’s-dornish-doppelganger/ Agreed--something is clearly up here. This is not normal for the world of Westeros. Granted, Ned is one who simply keeps silent about painful things. But his vehemence with Cat to silence any gossip about Ashara--that really seems like a pointer that something else is up with the Daynes. All true--except there is no need to give a name. Just say nothing. That's the Ned-ly way. The fact that Wylla is a real person still alive at Starfall--he's still impugning her. Ned isn't keen on such things. If he could just stay silent, he would. For some reason, he gave a name. Not of a fictitious Canadian girlfriend, but of a real, living person. Something is up.

Depends--note that Starfall tells the same story Ned tells. About a woman that lives there and was the wet nurse to the current Lord of Starfall. There's a decent chance that Ned is not the only one with something to hide. Or: give them something easy to look for. If Ned says "Wylla" but others think "Ashara--because they danced at Harrenhal"--then people think they've solved the mystery and look no further. That would assume Ned would plot like that--which may be a stretch. Ned's go to move seems to be silence when it comes to secrets. But the fact that he gives any name for Jon's mother. . . that he doesn't just keep silent. That may mean he isn't the only one who his keeping this secret.

I certainly hope so. My fear with Dany is that she fluctuates back and forth between civilized and dragon-burning. If she thought a sacrifice could help her save all of Westeros, which she thinks belongs to her. . . I could see this. And getting somewhat back to Black Crow's thread--the echoes/repeats of sacrifice in the North and for the Targs--they repeat and repeat and repeat. Jon chose duty in Game--sacrificed own needs to be with Robb and instead went back to the Wall. Dany chose to sacrifice others to get what she wanted--to conquer. I hope she won't see Baby as expendable. But. . . she's an odd duck for me.

Agree fully on the first. Full disclosure: I have a really hard time making the direct inversions work. Really seems like we don't have enough evidence. Rough echoes where we've been told Arya and Sansa are like Lyanna in specific ways? Absolutely. But the idea of set, precise inversions. . . I really struggle with this. But. . . in Westeros, couples seem to marry at the bride's house--why go to Winterfell? The Daynes are Dornish--why would they care about even an excessive number of paramours? The Martells clearly don't. Do we have any evidence that the Daynes have a strongly different take on this than the rest of the Dornish? And "raped by multiple men" is vastly different than having paramours--especially in Dorne. In Dorne? They're fine, given what we see of the Martells. But--if she's home, it's really hard to hide this. We see Jeyne pass as Arya because the household of Winterfell is gone and Arya was still pretty young when she left home. Sansa can pass as Alayne because she's never been to the Eyrie--even then, Myranda seems to think something's up. Yes, Harwin doesn't recognize Arya at first, but that's because he thinks she's dead, it's been a while since he saw her, she's a kid and kids change, etc. And he does recognize her eventually. Given all that, if the full grown, famously drop dead gorgeous Ashara is hiding in her own house, assuming her father didn't conduct a violent purge of the Starfall staff--this really seems hard to pull off. I think that Wylla Manderly is a much better clue--her green hair. Her loyalty to the Starks. Her name coming out of literal nowhere for no narrative need. And given that we have both Arya and Sansa hiding under aliases and Lyanna clearly tied to both of them repeatedly in the novels: Lyanna hid under an alias. Probably under "Wylla". Likely dying her hair as we see with both Sansa and Wylla Manderly. But I do think there's a decent chance Ashara is Quaithe. But he fought on Robert's side and was his bestest bud. Really don't think Ned would need any protection. . . ETA: That said, I do agree that Ashara may have had to "give up" a baby--if she's Dany's mother (a theory I'm still very partial to) via Rhaegar, that baby would have to be hidden. Just like Mance's baby (if for different reasons). Under another identity. So, I think that echo could hold. . . in lots of ways.

I am also intrigued. Am also wondering how this might affect/increase Dany's reaction to Young Griff. . . if she reads Rhaegar's take on things, via Aemon's journals. . .

Agreed. I'm liking this very much. Am also worried about Mance's baby. But this is getting me very speculative about Summerhall again--was the idea just to sacrifice one child for the dragon eggs--which is plenty horrifying. If so, it could mean Dany under Marwyn's "guidance" could try to up the ante and sacrifice two people with kingsblood at once. . .

Might depend on what "worthy" means to the Daynes--12-14 is super young. But we don't fully know their criteria. Are you thinking Darkstar will be Sword of the Morning? Really seems like he knows the family isn't giving him that role. . .

I'm more partial to the theory that Sansa as Alayne and Arya as all of her aliases is giving us in for about Lyanna, not Ashara. But your scenario has to be on the table. Or--the Daynes just didn't name a Sword of the Morning that generation. GRRM makes it sound like it's not that unusual for the Daynes to leave the position open for a while. That it's less about someone being "un" worthy and more about someone being super-duper worthy. 1. This is still my biggest hope for Jon's parentage. I don't think it's happening, but I'm not giving up yet! 2. In the World Book and GRRM's SSM, only someone "of House Dayne" can be Sword of the Morning. So far in the novels, people are only described as "of a House" if their father is from that house. IE: Even at Riverrun, I don't think Robb was even called "of House Tully." It's a phrase that always seems tied to paternity. And to fathers--not grandfathers, grandmothers, etc. If that holds, and if Jon is the next Sword of the Morning, his daddy's a Dayne.

This is an interesting question. Not every great house is represented in the KG over time (far as I can tell)--so that may be a factor. And we know not every generation has a Sword of the Morning--so that could be a factor, too. Too few Sword of the Mornings were close to the crown. But if the story of Just Maid is tied to the history of the Sword of the Morning, really could mean that Dawn isn't to be used lightly, let alone regularly in fights. Brine understands this and only uses Oathkeeper rarely. So--was Arthur making a mistake by agreeing to be in the KG? Is his service to the Dragon part of what helped open the door to the Others' return? It would explain why no other Sword of the Morning has served the Dragon--Arthur messed up, probably to help his best friend. And it would explain the significance of the fight between Ned and Arthur--not just a Night's King vs. Day's King. But a Night's King trying to do the right thing against a Day's King who screwed up and used Dawn in service to Aerys the Wannabe Dragon. We may even have an echo of it in Ned's execution: the Stark leave Winterfell to serve the crown and ends up executed with Ice, a sword which is a stand in for an older, lost sword named Ice. Milkglass Dawn looks a lot like ice. . . . Definitely looks like an Others' sword. Both Ned and Arthur served the wrong power--the Game of Thrones--instead of just taking care of the people and the land--the lesson we see Jon learn at the Wall. And so Ned and Arthur both end up executed with their own swords.

Not a pleasant thought. But it's gotta be an option. Could be--Dany is certainly more likely to be more sympathetic to a dead Aemon than whenever she runs into Young Griff/Aegon. I also wonder how the "Prince that was Promised" revelation will hit Dany--did Gilly hear Aemon say he thought it could be a girl? Might drive Dany further into her sense of entitlement. Wait--so you are thinking the fire is simply to burn a dead relative? Hmmm . . . if that prophecy is even correct (a big if) that seems rather . . . mundane. . .

If this was the original plan, can't see any reason why GRRM would change his mind. His original plan was to age up the Stark kids to make their stories more adult. When the multi-year gap no longer seemed workable, he then just basically made them into moderate Wonderkids. So, kept to his plan despite their ages. He's had Ned Dayne in the Appendices since Game--he's had a reason for that kid from the get go. So, if he was planning of Ned Dayne as Sword of the Morning, he'd stick with it. But I really, really doubt Ned Dayne's the one. I think he's much more likely there to make the necessary connection between Starfall and Winterfell for the reader. Maybe he'll be the one who transports Dawn to the next Sword of the Morning. Can't see Ned at the wielder. He's Lord of Starfall, a squire, and a narrative help. But Jon's the one who's been longing all his life to win a greatsword that will give him a family name. And he's the one who has that almost epiphanic moment with the Sword of the Morning when he's spent the previous chapter consistently asking "who am I?" Theories are just theories--until/unless the next book comes. And then we'll have more theories. Might depend on what the Daynes see as "worthy."

Ooooh! Very interesting. Are you thinking he might be willing to use Mance's kid? Something like that?

Makes you wonder what the Night's King was really like!

Yup! I like the Matriarchal implications. And I'm pretty sure Allyria is at Starfall--so, she could be the one? Maybe we're seeing narrative hints of that with her betrothal to Beric, the Lightning Lord? His sigil seems like a tie to the Daynes. Could be a stretch. Loving this scenario! Yeah--I think she's still on the ship. What makes you think she's on the way to Dany? I'm missing something.

Darkstar could be an excellent catalyst--give him something important to do narratively--stealing that sword. Making a big mess. Moving stuff about. But I agree that he's unlikely to be the Sword of the Morning, being "Of the douchebag-filled night." And I think he may also be a narrative marker: the Night's King/Sword of the Evening covets Dawn. May be showing us what "the Battle for Dawn" really was. . . Could be. Or just want Westeros back--kinda depends on what the Others want. If they hate living things as Old Nan says, they'd want free rein. Might also be the Night's King who wants the sword back--if Black Crow is right and he's coming back, dude would want his sword.

According to this SSM, it's only a Dayne. “George said the Sword of the Morning is always a member of House Dayne, someone who is deemed worthy of wielding Dawn as decided within the House, that whoever it is would have to earn the right to wield it.” http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/US_Signing_Tour_Albuquerque_NM I like the idea of the sword choosing worthiness--really seems like there has to be some magic to it. There's also the story of Just Maid, where it's bestowed by a woman--but then only used by Galladon against worthy opponents. Seems like that might be part of the criteria for Dawn? And maybe we're seeing another version of that with Brienne and how careful she is with Oathkeeper. If that "care" is part of it, I', wondering if Arthur went too far in using Dawn . . . And its power for light: I'm still thinking Dawn burns red at the right moment with the right wielder. All the stories of how a magic sword is magic in the novels--the main one is Lightbringer--and the story is awful. It's probably wishful thinking, but I'm hoping the story of Just Maid is closer to the "real" story about the sword that brings light.

Yup! It can't be the fact that Ned returned the sword that makes them like him so much. Something else is up. I've got theories--but one way or another, there's a bunch of the story missing about why Ned regrets Arthur's death so much (according to Bran)--and why the Daynes admire Ned so much that the current Lord of Starfall thinks it's cool that he's milk brothers with the Bastard of Winterfell.

Yup! Though I'd say it's more than "picking it up." A Night's King descendant killed the Day's King descendant. Note that when Ned fights Arthur (the last one he sees before the fight in his dream) the blue rose petals that fly are "blue as the eyes of death." Far as I can tell, that's the only time something is compared to the Wights'/Others' eyes anywhere in the novels. Really think that was a tipping point--Night's King wasn't supposed to win back the sword. Ned's taking it to Starfall--I do wonder what effect it had that the Night's King's descendant gave the sword back to the Day's King's family. Though I also think there's a decent chance Arthur (or any Sword of the Morning) really shouldn't have been using Dawn in service to the Dragon. Well, as stated above, GRRM is really clear--Dawn waits at Starfall. So, not in crypt. Also, GRRM has made it really clear--House Dayne chooses a worthy Dayne to bestow the sword on. If there isn't a current worthy Dayne, they just wait for the next generation. And if a chosen Dayne becomes unworthy, he's supposed to return it--World Book has a story of a Sword of the Evening giving up Dawn. So, maybe Dawn will be stolen. But really, really think GRRM is waiting to get it to a "worthy Dayne." Most likely Jon. And that could restore the balance. At least for a while.

Ha! No need to apologize--the threads go all over. No need to re-read them all. Well--I personally have a lot of interest in the Daynes, but I'm not sure how popular they are on Heresy. But some ideas I've seen floated: The Daynes and the Starks are connected: the Daynes being tied to the Sword of the Morning, the Starks being tied to the Night's King who was thrown down. A Dayne/Sword of the Morning was the "brother" (either by blood or a "brother" of the Watch) who threw down the Night's King. Dawn is the Night's King sword, taken from him when he abused his power, then taken south to protect it from misuse. That would explain how the Daynes bestow Dawn only on a worthy Dayne. And it would explain why GRRM brings in the story of Galladon of Morne and his sword Just Maid. I'm sure there are others--but these are at least a few I've seen for a while.

Agreed with all of the above. But it's not just that the ritual went wrong--the Targs are parvenues per se. They never were part of the balance of Westeros to begin with. They are actively messing with Westeros. Burning. Messing with the Wall. Basing the Kingsguard off the Watch--and potentially pulling attention away from the importance of the Watch. Even as the Stranger statue in Dragonstone seems to potentially point to the Targs' fear of the northern skinchangers. Seems like "Summerhall" may be another bit of arrogant Targ puffery, believing they can change everything. And the the ritual and its failure seem driven by that arrogance. But the balance goes back far, far further. And it can't be solved with Targ conquering. Let alone dragons.

I asked a while ago, but the answer I got back--didn't say one way or another. No hint at all. That said, my question was wordy, so he may not have known exactly what I was asking. I decided not to pester him. But given all the rest of the stuff in the app, I'd be very surprised if the family tree he saw wasn't like all the other trees: in-world, not objective, reality. Yup. Martin's making it clear: we have to wait for the next books (grumble). Agreed--though I'd add the app only serves this way if we (the readers) let ourselves forget how Martin sets up his world. When we remember that, the omniscience goes away.

Maybe--are you thinking this goes along with the "Jon was intended to be a sacrifice/second Summerhall" theory? On this--yes. Though I'd add that if all Ned has is Dawn, the trip still makes sense: he'd going to Starfall for his sister.

Yeah--that seems kinda wacky to me, too. If Lyanna and Jon were at Starfall, pretty sure they stayed at Starfall. Instead, the KG rode out to meet Ned and Co. at a neutral location (the toj) away from the people they were actually defending. Like Jon, like Duncan, etc. Because they can't fight Ned's whole army, so they lure him to a parlay with a smaller force. Ned wins. Then goes to Starfall with Dawn, finding Lyanna and Jon there. I agree that the scenario you cited seems . . . excessive. But are there hints that Lyanna was at Starfall? That the Daynes are important and know something about Jon? Yes. We need to next book to sort it out.