Sly Wren

I certainly hope so. My fear with Dany is that she fluctuates back and forth between civilized and dragon-burning. If she thought a sacrifice could help her save all of Westeros, which she thinks belongs to her. . . I could see this. And getting somewhat back to Black Crow's thread--the echoes/repeats of sacrifice in the North and for the Targs--they repeat and repeat and repeat. Jon chose duty in Game--sacrificed own needs to be with Robb and instead went back to the Wall. Dany chose to sacrifice others to get what she wanted--to conquer. I hope she won't see Baby as expendable. But. . . she's an odd duck for me.

Agree fully on the first. Full disclosure: I have a really hard time making the direct inversions work. Really seems like we don't have enough evidence. Rough echoes where we've been told Arya and Sansa are like Lyanna in specific ways? Absolutely. But the idea of set, precise inversions. . . I really struggle with this. But. . . in Westeros, couples seem to marry at the bride's house--why go to Winterfell? The Daynes are Dornish--why would they care about even an excessive number of paramours? The Martells clearly don't. Do we have any evidence that the Daynes have a strongly different take on this than the rest of the Dornish? And "raped by multiple men" is vastly different than having paramours--especially in Dorne. In Dorne? They're fine, given what we see of the Martells. But--if she's home, it's really hard to hide this. We see Jeyne pass as Arya because the household of Winterfell is gone and Arya was still pretty young when she left home. Sansa can pass as Alayne because she's never been to the Eyrie--even then, Myranda seems to think something's up. Yes, Harwin doesn't recognize Arya at first, but that's because he thinks she's dead, it's been a while since he saw her, she's a kid and kids change, etc. And he does recognize her eventually. Given all that, if the full grown, famously drop dead gorgeous Ashara is hiding in her own house, assuming her father didn't conduct a violent purge of the Starfall staff--this really seems hard to pull off. I think that Wylla Manderly is a much better clue--her green hair. Her loyalty to the Starks. Her name coming out of literal nowhere for no narrative need. And given that we have both Arya and Sansa hiding under aliases and Lyanna clearly tied to both of them repeatedly in the novels: Lyanna hid under an alias. Probably under "Wylla". Likely dying her hair as we see with both Sansa and Wylla Manderly. But I do think there's a decent chance Ashara is Quaithe. But he fought on Robert's side and was his bestest bud. Really don't think Ned would need any protection. . . ETA: That said, I do agree that Ashara may have had to "give up" a baby--if she's Dany's mother (a theory I'm still very partial to) via Rhaegar, that baby would have to be hidden. Just like Mance's baby (if for different reasons). Under another identity. So, I think that echo could hold. . . in lots of ways.

I am also intrigued. Am also wondering how this might affect/increase Dany's reaction to Young Griff. . . if she reads Rhaegar's take on things, via Aemon's journals. . .

Agreed. I'm liking this very much. Am also worried about Mance's baby. But this is getting me very speculative about Summerhall again--was the idea just to sacrifice one child for the dragon eggs--which is plenty horrifying. If so, it could mean Dany under Marwyn's "guidance" could try to up the ante and sacrifice two people with kingsblood at once. . .

Might depend on what "worthy" means to the Daynes--12-14 is super young. But we don't fully know their criteria. Are you thinking Darkstar will be Sword of the Morning? Really seems like he knows the family isn't giving him that role. . .

I'm more partial to the theory that Sansa as Alayne and Arya as all of her aliases is giving us in for about Lyanna, not Ashara. But your scenario has to be on the table. Or--the Daynes just didn't name a Sword of the Morning that generation. GRRM makes it sound like it's not that unusual for the Daynes to leave the position open for a while. That it's less about someone being "un" worthy and more about someone being super-duper worthy. 1. This is still my biggest hope for Jon's parentage. I don't think it's happening, but I'm not giving up yet! 2. In the World Book and GRRM's SSM, only someone "of House Dayne" can be Sword of the Morning. So far in the novels, people are only described as "of a House" if their father is from that house. IE: Even at Riverrun, I don't think Robb was even called "of House Tully." It's a phrase that always seems tied to paternity. And to fathers--not grandfathers, grandmothers, etc. If that holds, and if Jon is the next Sword of the Morning, his daddy's a Dayne.

This is an interesting question. Not every great house is represented in the KG over time (far as I can tell)--so that may be a factor. And we know not every generation has a Sword of the Morning--so that could be a factor, too. Too few Sword of the Mornings were close to the crown. But if the story of Just Maid is tied to the history of the Sword of the Morning, really could mean that Dawn isn't to be used lightly, let alone regularly in fights. Brine understands this and only uses Oathkeeper rarely. So--was Arthur making a mistake by agreeing to be in the KG? Is his service to the Dragon part of what helped open the door to the Others' return? It would explain why no other Sword of the Morning has served the Dragon--Arthur messed up, probably to help his best friend. And it would explain the significance of the fight between Ned and Arthur--not just a Night's King vs. Day's King. But a Night's King trying to do the right thing against a Day's King who screwed up and used Dawn in service to Aerys the Wannabe Dragon. We may even have an echo of it in Ned's execution: the Stark leave Winterfell to serve the crown and ends up executed with Ice, a sword which is a stand in for an older, lost sword named Ice. Milkglass Dawn looks a lot like ice. . . . Definitely looks like an Others' sword. Both Ned and Arthur served the wrong power--the Game of Thrones--instead of just taking care of the people and the land--the lesson we see Jon learn at the Wall. And so Ned and Arthur both end up executed with their own swords.

Not a pleasant thought. But it's gotta be an option. Could be--Dany is certainly more likely to be more sympathetic to a dead Aemon than whenever she runs into Young Griff/Aegon. I also wonder how the "Prince that was Promised" revelation will hit Dany--did Gilly hear Aemon say he thought it could be a girl? Might drive Dany further into her sense of entitlement. Wait--so you are thinking the fire is simply to burn a dead relative? Hmmm . . . if that prophecy is even correct (a big if) that seems rather . . . mundane. . .

If this was the original plan, can't see any reason why GRRM would change his mind. His original plan was to age up the Stark kids to make their stories more adult. When the multi-year gap no longer seemed workable, he then just basically made them into moderate Wonderkids. So, kept to his plan despite their ages. He's had Ned Dayne in the Appendices since Game--he's had a reason for that kid from the get go. So, if he was planning of Ned Dayne as Sword of the Morning, he'd stick with it. But I really, really doubt Ned Dayne's the one. I think he's much more likely there to make the necessary connection between Starfall and Winterfell for the reader. Maybe he'll be the one who transports Dawn to the next Sword of the Morning. Can't see Ned at the wielder. He's Lord of Starfall, a squire, and a narrative help. But Jon's the one who's been longing all his life to win a greatsword that will give him a family name. And he's the one who has that almost epiphanic moment with the Sword of the Morning when he's spent the previous chapter consistently asking "who am I?" Theories are just theories--until/unless the next book comes. And then we'll have more theories. Might depend on what the Daynes see as "worthy."

Ooooh! Very interesting. Are you thinking he might be willing to use Mance's kid? Something like that?

Makes you wonder what the Night's King was really like!

Yup! I like the Matriarchal implications. And I'm pretty sure Allyria is at Starfall--so, she could be the one? Maybe we're seeing narrative hints of that with her betrothal to Beric, the Lightning Lord? His sigil seems like a tie to the Daynes. Could be a stretch. Loving this scenario! Yeah--I think she's still on the ship. What makes you think she's on the way to Dany? I'm missing something.

Darkstar could be an excellent catalyst--give him something important to do narratively--stealing that sword. Making a big mess. Moving stuff about. But I agree that he's unlikely to be the Sword of the Morning, being "Of the douchebag-filled night." And I think he may also be a narrative marker: the Night's King/Sword of the Evening covets Dawn. May be showing us what "the Battle for Dawn" really was. . . Could be. Or just want Westeros back--kinda depends on what the Others want. If they hate living things as Old Nan says, they'd want free rein. Might also be the Night's King who wants the sword back--if Black Crow is right and he's coming back, dude would want his sword.

According to this SSM, it's only a Dayne. “George said the Sword of the Morning is always a member of House Dayne, someone who is deemed worthy of wielding Dawn as decided within the House, that whoever it is would have to earn the right to wield it.” http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/US_Signing_Tour_Albuquerque_NM I like the idea of the sword choosing worthiness--really seems like there has to be some magic to it. There's also the story of Just Maid, where it's bestowed by a woman--but then only used by Galladon against worthy opponents. Seems like that might be part of the criteria for Dawn? And maybe we're seeing another version of that with Brienne and how careful she is with Oathkeeper. If that "care" is part of it, I', wondering if Arthur went too far in using Dawn . . . And its power for light: I'm still thinking Dawn burns red at the right moment with the right wielder. All the stories of how a magic sword is magic in the novels--the main one is Lightbringer--and the story is awful. It's probably wishful thinking, but I'm hoping the story of Just Maid is closer to the "real" story about the sword that brings light.

Yup! It can't be the fact that Ned returned the sword that makes them like him so much. Something else is up. I've got theories--but one way or another, there's a bunch of the story missing about why Ned regrets Arthur's death so much (according to Bran)--and why the Daynes admire Ned so much that the current Lord of Starfall thinks it's cool that he's milk brothers with the Bastard of Winterfell.

Yup! Though I'd say it's more than "picking it up." A Night's King descendant killed the Day's King descendant. Note that when Ned fights Arthur (the last one he sees before the fight in his dream) the blue rose petals that fly are "blue as the eyes of death." Far as I can tell, that's the only time something is compared to the Wights'/Others' eyes anywhere in the novels. Really think that was a tipping point--Night's King wasn't supposed to win back the sword. Ned's taking it to Starfall--I do wonder what effect it had that the Night's King's descendant gave the sword back to the Day's King's family. Though I also think there's a decent chance Arthur (or any Sword of the Morning) really shouldn't have been using Dawn in service to the Dragon. Well, as stated above, GRRM is really clear--Dawn waits at Starfall. So, not in crypt. Also, GRRM has made it really clear--House Dayne chooses a worthy Dayne to bestow the sword on. If there isn't a current worthy Dayne, they just wait for the next generation. And if a chosen Dayne becomes unworthy, he's supposed to return it--World Book has a story of a Sword of the Evening giving up Dawn. So, maybe Dawn will be stolen. But really, really think GRRM is waiting to get it to a "worthy Dayne." Most likely Jon. And that could restore the balance. At least for a while.

Ha! No need to apologize--the threads go all over. No need to re-read them all. Well--I personally have a lot of interest in the Daynes, but I'm not sure how popular they are on Heresy. But some ideas I've seen floated: The Daynes and the Starks are connected: the Daynes being tied to the Sword of the Morning, the Starks being tied to the Night's King who was thrown down. A Dayne/Sword of the Morning was the "brother" (either by blood or a "brother" of the Watch) who threw down the Night's King. Dawn is the Night's King sword, taken from him when he abused his power, then taken south to protect it from misuse. That would explain how the Daynes bestow Dawn only on a worthy Dayne. And it would explain why GRRM brings in the story of Galladon of Morne and his sword Just Maid. I'm sure there are others--but these are at least a few I've seen for a while.

Agreed with all of the above. But it's not just that the ritual went wrong--the Targs are parvenues per se. They never were part of the balance of Westeros to begin with. They are actively messing with Westeros. Burning. Messing with the Wall. Basing the Kingsguard off the Watch--and potentially pulling attention away from the importance of the Watch. Even as the Stranger statue in Dragonstone seems to potentially point to the Targs' fear of the northern skinchangers. Seems like "Summerhall" may be another bit of arrogant Targ puffery, believing they can change everything. And the the ritual and its failure seem driven by that arrogance. But the balance goes back far, far further. And it can't be solved with Targ conquering. Let alone dragons.

My apologies--I read too quickly. And I will avoid going into why I think that still makes Mance echo Rhaegar so I don't completely hijack your thread. But the showing of how a Westerosi figure works to find allies, bring about change--Mance, like Baelish, like Tywin, like Stannis--they all look for what resources they have to get their way. Even something as simple as keeping Jon and Robb's secret all those years ago. Makes perfect sense that Mance would figure out that Rowan was Crowfoot's daughter and hold onto that info until he needed it. And I love how Martin keeps showing this. It probably would make the series MUCH shorter if Martin would stop showing these patterns in side plots and simply finish the central plots. But the very fact that he keeps showing these things--really makes me think he's showing us what went down in the past and in the central plots. I was thinking the same basics about Rowan, too. Not sure how much to read into the names. But given the likelihood of who Rowan is, her name might have more significance. Maybe. Yup!

Well done! Not farfetched at all! Exactly. Plus (full disclosure) it fits with my pet theory that Mance is actually a pointer/echo of Rhaegar. Yes, Mance is his own man with own plot. But he's also giving us info on the past--Bael, red and black cloak, Cornishman's Wife, etc. Mance stole a northern daughter for his own purposes. No clear evidence it was romantic-- I can't remember Rowan being romantically attracted to Mance/Abel. By all means correct me if I'm wrong. But all this time later, all this time with Mance's hoard and his ideas, Rowan is still all in for the North and the Starks. She's still who she is. As Arya is, even after being with the Brotherhood and the House of Black and White. But Mance never let her go--makes me wonder if he's held onto her for so long largely for future leverage. Yes, you note above that she is a spearwife and may very well prefer to remain so. But Osha makes it clear Mance wants certain hostages. Mance is clearly happy to get Jon. Given Mance's desire to take over a lot of things (Rhaegar is the same), makes sense to find and keep useful hostages. Are you playing at all with Rowan's name? The protector? tree of life? Even the "red-haired?' Rowan--the northern daughter, who, like Arya, Wylla Manderly, and (presumably) Lyanna, never has her ties to the north broken. A very valuable asset in any Mance ploy. Precisely. Even the most notorious plotters in the novels (Baelish, Tywin)--they stir the pot, try something, then adjust as needed. Mance didn't survive this long by being overly rigid.

With you both on the state of the Others--a very workable theory. And I also see it as a collective: to get back to the Last Hero (before he fell--IMHO). They taught Brandon a "song"--how that helps. What that will lead to: we are still guessing unless we get Winds. But--why not be about raising the dead? The whole series calls us to realize the Westerosi dead can rise. The life is not fully gone. I agree that he's fighting against going in because "he's not a Stark." But when he finally agrees, goes in and goes all the way down--what's the result? The Old Kings rise. Not his recent family. The original family. Because he's one of them. Because they are waiting for him. To do what? Absolutely. And an "old hand at justice" according to Bran in the first chapter of Game. The chapter that contrasts the Justice of a Stark vs. the Cruelty of the Others in the Prologue. Right from the start, Martin contrasted that justice with the Others. Contrasted Ned and Jon with the Others. Later, contrasts Dany's horrifying embrace of the Dragon with Jon's re-embracing his duty (vs. desire to join Robb). Really don't think that's setting Jon up to join the Others. Jon sees himself reflected in the Wall. Sees the Sword of the Morning with the Wall. Yes, he thinks of the cold of the ice dragon--but he embraces duty and the defense of men. The Sword (of the Morning) and the Mirror Shield of the Wall. I have a hard time squaring all that with Jon becoming an Other--especially when, as you noted, he's such a newbie at skin changing. Instead, he's an "old hand at justice." Stark justice. Just Maid justice (that story about Galladon and how Brienne used the sword has to be there for a reason). Really think that where he's going. But Bran--he definitely could be the next Symeon.

Been so long since I re-read that section. But off the top of my reckless head: The trees of the Undying (the shade of the evening trees) remind me of the weirwoods. The house of the Undying is all shadows and death--not unlike the cave: darkness, bones, the almost zombie-fied Children. They feed Dany the Shade--the Children give Bran that paste. Maybe they aren't the "same"--but they seem to echo each other. I got theories. I got fears. Got no certainties.

Yup! The Varamyr prologue really does seem like it fits Bran well (in my not at all flawed opinion). Though Jon will push barriers, he then hems himself in with the words of his oath--comes back to the Wall instead of going to Robb. Refuses Stannis' offer for Winterfell. Jon sacrifices his desires to his idea of the rules. Varamyr and Bran . . . they aren't so scrupulous. As for what BR wants: I really vacillate on him. In the novellas, he's clearly the guy who's willing to do terrible things for the good of the realm. To basically sacrifice himself. But he and the Children seem really creepy--and remind me of the Undying. Does BR want Bran to be like him? To sacrifice himself? If so, the Other body idea . . . not sure how that would help BR. But given the stories of Symeon Star Eyes and Bran's longstanding desire to be a knight: I could see Bran going rogue. To help defend his family (like he uses Summer to attack Jon's attackers). If Bran could be an Ice Knight (AKA Other)--yes. I could see him doing that whether BR liked it or not.

I agree with you both--and all the more reason why Bran-the-seasoned-skinchanger (with access to info) is far more likely to attempt such a thing than Jon-the-newbie.

I take your point--Varamyr is clearly significant. Shows a side of what Bran could have become. Could still become. But really seems like Martin has been showing the various ways "second life" works for a while now: Others and Wights in Game. More Others and the Undying in Clash. Beric and Coldhands in Storm. Then, in Dance, we get a whole bunch: Varamyr, Stoneheart, Coldhands again, and Bran: seeing souls in animals, climbing around in Hodor, seeing the Children "plugged in" to trees. Given that, seems like Varamyr's prologue could be a warning for Bran. Plus, there's Jon's long-recurring dream, which we hear about in Game: being called against his will into the crypt and seeing the Kings of Winter rise. Jon only sees this part of the dream AFTER they find Othor and Flowers. That seems like the dream is tied to the finding of the wights. An answer to the wights: raise the Starks, waiting in their completely unique crypt. And in that dream, Jon makes no mention of the old kings looking like ice-beasties. No matter how freaked out Jon is by the nightmare, really seems like he'd remember if the Kings looked like ice. If the people he's waking are Others. Right--but this seems like it's tied to the lessons we are seeing Bran learn (or not learn) about second life, morality, etc. And, again: Varamyr is not a Stark. Not related to all those strangely crypted bodies in Winterfell. There is something unique about Stark dead. Varamyr cannot go back to his body. But we know both Beric and Stoneheart can--it is workable. So, what if that body is a Stark? And, given your point about Jon's whopping inexperience compared to Varamyr, really think it's more likely Bran would make himself an ice body (or be tempted to). Bran, not Jon, has dreamed of being Symeon Star Eyes--likely an Other. Bran, not Jon, looks to use/create bodies that are not his own. Bran, not Jon, has practice. If anyone's going to make an ice body in the series, showing us how to do it, my money would be on Bran--not newbie Jon. That would be just as radical--and make a lot more sense, given Bran's interest in Symeon and his talent/practice. Why kill Jon? To have him raise the dead of Winterfell. Like he's been dreaming of since Game. Bran's making an ice body would show us all the things you suggest. Be just as radical--and fit with his character and earlier ideas. But Jon's dreams, when they come, what he sees and doesn't see (no Ice People in the crypts)--really, really seems like Jon is more likely to be a different kind of undead altogether. A unique one--like Coldhands. Not a wight. Not an Other (they aren't unique). Something much more rare. And very Stark.